ReeferMadness Posted August 10, 2013 Author Report Posted August 10, 2013 Good thing we have much stricter environmental regulations now than we ever did before. Where is your evidence of these stricter environmental regulations? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted August 10, 2013 Author Report Posted August 10, 2013 Do you really want to shut down the modern economy? Or only in the West, letting India and China have us for lunch? I'm not sure how anyone could "shut down the modern economy". Even putting those words down is silly. However, there is lots of evidence that wealthy countries are exporting their environmental problems to those very same countries that you worry will have us for lunch. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
GostHacked Posted August 10, 2013 Report Posted August 10, 2013 Where is your evidence of these stricter environmental regulations? I think he is being sarcastic. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted August 10, 2013 Author Report Posted August 10, 2013 I think he is being sarcastic. I thought he was pushing the old "Countries with stronger economies have better environments" chestnut. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
jbg Posted August 11, 2013 Report Posted August 11, 2013 I thought he was pushing the old "Countries with stronger economies have better environments" chestnut. Well they do because they perceive they can afford stronger regulations. In many cases, the factories just shut down and move to less regulated or more corrupt venues. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
GostHacked Posted August 11, 2013 Report Posted August 11, 2013 Well they do because they perceive they can afford stronger regulations. In many cases, the factories just shut down and move to less regulated or more corrupt venues. Factories have been moved out of Noth America for some time. So by this the economy is already ruind and CO2 had nothing to do with it in the first place. Quote
Bryan Posted August 11, 2013 Report Posted August 11, 2013 Where is your evidence of these stricter environmental regulations? Is that a joke? The regulations are constantly increased all the time. The days of being allowed to just dump whatever you want where ever you want are long gone. There has been a constant tightening of laws (both local and international) with respect to what pollutants are banned out right, the maximum levels that others are allowed at, the degree of filtration that is required, and the security of containment and storage. Emissions are monitored (and enforced) much more stringently. Whether it's PCBs, CFCs, or DDT, or the weed killer on my lawn, things are MUCH stricter than they used to be. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted August 11, 2013 Author Report Posted August 11, 2013 Is that a joke? The regulations are constantly increased all the time. The days of being allowed to just dump whatever you want where ever you want are long gone. There has been a constant tightening of laws (both local and international) with respect to what pollutants are banned out right, the maximum levels that others are allowed at, the degree of filtration that is required, and the security of containment and storage. Emissions are monitored (and enforced) much more stringently. Whether it's PCBs, CFCs, or DDT, or the weed killer on my lawn, things are MUCH stricter than they used to be. So, this is it? Your evidence of the "constant tightening of laws" is a couple of chemicals that took decades to ban during the 60's through the 90's? And the banning of the poison you'd like to put on your lawn that continues to evolve (and probably will for another decade or more)? Wow, sounds like runaway regulation to me. What about all of the chemicals that have been introduced since? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted August 11, 2013 Author Report Posted August 11, 2013 Well they do because they perceive they can afford stronger regulations. In many cases, the factories just shut down and move to less regulated or more corrupt venues. When globalization was in its infancy, environmental and labour groups predicted that companies would relocate to jurisdictions where regulations were less and labour was cheapest, thus putting downward pressure on environmental and labour regulations in developed countries. This was called the race to the bottom. The idea was poo-pooed by economists at the time but that's exactly what happened. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
jbg Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Factories have been moved out of Noth America for some time. So by this the economy is already ruind and CO2 had nothing to do with it in the first place. Other environmental regulations, and union power, triggered that. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
GostHacked Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 Other environmental regulations, and union power, triggered that. The economy is ruined and CO2 has little to do with it. Environmental regulations have nothing to do with it either. I mean you and could be charged out the ass for pouring a litre of gasoline down the drain. But when trains, oil rigs blow, and pipes leak, these corps get a slap on the wrist. Quote
Mighty AC Posted August 12, 2013 Report Posted August 12, 2013 A new report out yesterday finds that enforcement of environmental infractions by companies in the Alberta oil sands are 17 times lower than similar infractions reported to the United State's Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The report [pdf], authored by the environmental non-profit Global Forest Watch, looked at more than fifteen years of data on recorded environmental mishaps by oil sand's companies, tracking the follow-up actions taken and the final verdict on fines. The findings are absolutely shocking and put to shame the idea that Canadians care about their natural environment. If we do care, then this report should be a wake up call for us all. Of the more than 4,000 infractions reported, less than 1-percent (.09 to be exact) received an enforcement action (that would be less than 40 of 4,000). Compare this the US Environmental Protection Agency, who has an enforcement rate of 16% for similar infractions by companies under their Clean Water Act. http://thecanadian.org/hot-links/item/2233-new-report-less-than-1-percent-of-tar-sands-environmental-infractions-penalized Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
FutureCanadian Posted August 18, 2013 Report Posted August 18, 2013 A carbon tax that is structure with a revenue neutral income tax rebate seems like a no-brainer. You're taxing something you don't like and cutting taxes on something you do like. Quote
dre Posted August 19, 2013 Report Posted August 19, 2013 Other environmental regulations, and union power, triggered that. No thats absolute crap. By far the biggest factor is wages. In many cases manufacturers were able to replace 20-30 dollar per hour workers with workers that make under 1 dollar. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GostHacked Posted August 19, 2013 Report Posted August 19, 2013 No thats absolute crap. By far the biggest factor is wages. In many cases manufacturers were able to replace 20-30 dollar per hour workers with workers that make under 1 dollar. I think what he means is that stricter environmental laws, here in North America coupled with high wages and labour laws, resulted in companies offshoring their manufacturing to places like China. No worries about polluting the place, no worries about high wages or even paying out benefits. Step 1 - Offshore production Step 2 ??? Step 3 - Profit, and lots of it. Quote
dre Posted August 20, 2013 Report Posted August 20, 2013 I think what he means is that stricter environmental laws, here in North America coupled with high wages and labour laws, resulted in companies offshoring their manufacturing to places like China. No worries about polluting the place, no worries about high wages or even paying out benefits. Right, and im telling you that the primary driver is wages and the other factors are comparatively tiny. Which is why you see such diversity in the types of operations being offshored. Most of them are not even polluting industries such as manufacturing, etc. Software development, engineering, sewing, accounting, customer service... These companies arent moving for lax environmental regulations, its all about the cheap labor. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GostHacked Posted August 20, 2013 Report Posted August 20, 2013 Right, and im telling you that the primary driver is wages and the other factors are comparatively tiny. Which is why you see such diversity in the types of operations being offshored. Most of them are not even polluting industries such as manufacturing, etc. Software development, engineering, sewing, accounting, customer service... These companies arent moving for lax environmental regulations, its all about the cheap labor. I agree 100%. Even with part of our IT support outsourced to these countries seems like there really is no cost savings either. In many cases I have to get someone half way around the world to shut down the sever I am physically standing in front of in order to carry out repairs. So it's cheap for them, but then my wage and the IBM tech are getting paid overtime. So in some cases, there really is no money being saved. Quote
dre Posted August 20, 2013 Report Posted August 20, 2013 I agree 100%. Even with part of our IT support outsourced to these countries seems like there really is no cost savings either. In many cases I have to get someone half way around the world to shut down the sever I am physically standing in front of in order to carry out repairs. So it's cheap for them, but then my wage and the IBM tech are getting paid overtime. So in some cases, there really is no money being saved. Yup these are tough projects and most of them fail, either because the desired cost savings were not realized or because the quality of work product suffered. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
FutureCanadian Posted August 21, 2013 Report Posted August 21, 2013 Right, and im telling you that the primary driver is wages and the other factors are comparatively tiny. Which is why you see such diversity in the types of operations being offshored. Most of them are not even polluting industries such as manufacturing, etc. Software development, engineering, sewing, accounting, customer service... These companies arent moving for lax environmental regulations, its all about the cheap labor. If its manufacturing, I'd beg to differ than transportation to market costs are the biggest factor. A lot of companies that manufacture or assemble products are relocating back to the United States despite the disparity in wages because of these costs. Its fair to note the disparity is not as large as before. Wages in Asia have grown over time while US wages have largely stagnated so that is a factor, but I'm not sure it's THE factor. Quote
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