Salvation Army says “Gays Need to Be Put to Death”

[WestCoastRunner]

Of course!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/05/un-denounces-vatican-child-abuse

[jacee]

Most of this abuse can probably be attributed to the example that some of humankind's most venerated institutions have been setting for centuries now.

Religion has given rise to some of the biggest pedophile rings on the planet. There is no institution that even comes close to this sort of organized depravity.

Absolutely. I've grown suspicious of all church 'charitable' work that puts vulnerable children in their care.

There's always funding involved, and I suspect little of it benefits children.

[Argus]

The UN committee on the rights of children has denounced the Vatican over child abuse and demands immediate action and has released a report of the findings.

Barbara Bain, President of the U.S. based Survivors Network of Those Abused described the report as a scathing indictment of the way the Vatican has handled the scandle. "This day has been a long time coming, but the international community is finally holding the Vatican accountable for its role in enabling and perpetuating sexual violence in the church," said Katherine Gallagher, a senior staff attorney at the Center for Constitutional Rights. "The whole world will be watching to ensure that the Vatican takes the concrete steps required by the UN to protect children and end these crimes. Impunity and cover-up, including at the highest levels of the church, will not be tolerated."

And this is nothing to do with religion??? It has everything to do with it.

Why? Did child abuse not happen elsewhere in society?

[Argus]

Most of this abuse can probably be attributed to the example that some of humankind's most venerated institutions have been setting for centuries now.

Religion has given rise to some of the biggest pedophile rings on the planet. There is no institution that even comes close to this sort of organized depravity.

I suppose you could try to argue that it's actually religion that takes it cue from Mom's and Dad's etc but...good luck with that.

Organized depravity? You make it sound like there were meetings and flow charts and diagrams as to which priest or brother got to abuse which child. As far as I know it was simply a case of those with power being likely to abuse it. Those who had power over children, with few or no checks on their behavior, be they religious or not, could abuse that power. It has ever been so in all societies. So some of these priests and brothers abused the trust placed in them, as did many other members of society, btw. Should their religion have made that impossible? One would have hoped so but apparently not. But I've seen no indication the religion actually caused the misbehavior.

[jacee]

Organized depravity? You make it sound like there were meetings and flow charts and diagrams as to which priest or brother got to abuse which child. As far as I know it was simply a case of those with power being likely to abuse it. Those who had power over children, with few or no checks on their behavior, be they religious or not, could abuse that power. It has ever been so in all societies. So some of these priests and brothers abused the trust placed in them, as did many other members of society, btw. Should their religion have made that impossible? One would have hoped so but apparently not. But I've seen no indication the religion actually caused the misbehavior.

Quibbling whether "given rise to" means "caused" and 'religion' vs 'religious institutions' aside ... religious institutions have perpetuated child abuse by absolving perps of their sins and covering up for them, and the religion of those involved hasn't helped in any way.

Edited March 6, 2014 by jacee

[On Guard for Thee]

I wonder if this crazy idea of a vow of cellibacy might not have had something to do with it. I'm no expert but I understand that sex is a natural process required to propogate our species. So some guy in a goofy looking fish hat thinks they have the right to change that! No wonder things got a bit weird.

[WWWTT]

I was wondering where to post this picture I came across.

Might as well give this thread a bump at the same time!

WWWTT

[Rue]

Wow. The original headline and post suggested the Salvation Army supports killing gays. Then it meandered. Meanwhile the original allegation is absolutely false and now it strays to a conversation about Christian child molesters. What is going on?

Let's first go back to the Salvation Army. It has a fundamentalist Christian belief system. It believes engaging in gay sex is a moral sin. It does not say go around killing gays or hating gays.

I am a Jew. The Salvation Army believes until I accept Jesus as my saviour I do not go to heaven. It does not go around saying to hate or kill me. In fact during WW2 when my father was a lonely air force officer, they dawned his socks, fed him,, gave him a place to rest. No one said, oh you are a Jew we can't help you, you are sinful. My father never has forgotten their generosity.

This is an organization that is on the streets looking after the homeless, the mentally ill, convicts out on the street with no place to go, drug addicts and alcoholics, people with every illness and malady imaginable. It offers food, shelter and no forced religious doctrine or moral judgement.

Its followers live modest lives forgoing any material luxury. They have consistently the lowest expenditure on administrative costs. In fact they continually score the highest on assuring the vast majority of your donation goes right to helping someone.

They are a model charity.

To suggest they want gays killed or hate them is false. Absolutely 100% false. I have seen them take in people who are gay, and everything else. They do not question. They just help.

To take the comments of one person out of their context to smeer the whole organization was bull

Now I spent many years working with victims of sexual molestation in Christian institutions. For God's sake I am a Jew but not very religious in the conventional sense and I would never blame Christianity or Christians for the molesters who used their religion or insitutions to molest.

Institutionalization of any religion leads to power cliques and when clergy become powerful and unaccountable no matter what the religion, that is when we get the problems.

Oh sure I criticize the Catholic church. Not for the religion but for its bureaucratic structure that promotes secrecy and power imbalance and corruption.

I criticize it the very reason the legend of Jesus was created, to rebel against corrupt religious hierarchy. I use that standard against any religion.

Islam. Judaism, Christianity, name me the religion that hasn't been corrupted by clergy who are unaccountable, can not be questioned and have so much power.

That is human behaviour. We take the religion and we make a mockery of it. All religion starts because we use it as a tool to repress our primal behaviour to prevent social break down. It serves as a control guideline to help us maintain civility. It also gives comfort to those who fear the unknown and unexplainable. It then is taken by humans and used as a pretext for hatred, war, sexual molestation, etc.

Pedophiles of course are attracted to religious structures as they are any structure that can allow them a cover. Pedophiles seek opportunity for their behaviour and a structure that gives them access to the vulnerable and no accountability for their behaviour is ideal.

I spent years assuring people of all religions it is not their beliefs that allowed a clergy to molest-its the structure of religion that allowed too much power and no accountability.

I say when we criticize the churches and houses of worship understand you shouldn't smeer the average believer because of the sins of those who claim to lead them.

Here I am staunchly defending Christians and their right to be Christian and I am a Jew for heaven's sake and I do so for the exact same reason I defed the right of gays to be gays-I doubt any gay person wants you to go around hating anyone for them. I never met a gay person who told me, hate Christians because of the Catholic Church, etc.

Heck there are gay Christians are there not? They can be both can they not?

Are all Catholics to be blamed for the corruption in their church. I say no. Support them in their battle to reform their church and let them know they are not alone.

I hate seeing good people thrown out with the bad. We should not negatively stereotype the Salvation Army any more than we should gay people.

So again I am with Argus on this one even though he has different beliefs then I on many things. What we are talking about is the bureaucracy or structure that has led to corruption.

I say this right from my heart which is illogical I know-I have worked with the Salvation Army-these people are not hateful. I may not live in their world or be very different then them in certain things but this I know-hateful, no way.

[Mighty AC]

It seems they do both good and evil. Similarly, Hamas builds clinics, schools, runs food banks, soup kitchens, etc.

Since 1986 the Salvation Army has engaged in five major assaults on the LGBT community's civil rights and attempted to carve out exemptions that would allow them to deny gays and lesbians needed services as well as employment.

• When New Zealand considered passage of the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1986, the Salvation Army collected signatures in an attempt to get the legislation killed. The act decriminalized consensual sex between gay men. The measure passed over the charity's objections.
• In the United Kingdom, the Salvation Army actively pushed passage of an amendment to the Local Government Act. The amendment stated that local authorities "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship." The law has since been repealed, but it led many schools and colleges to close LGBT student organizations out of fear they'd lose their government funding.
• In 2001, the organization tried to extract a resolution from the White House that they could ignore local non-discrimination laws that protected LGBT people. While the commitment would have applied to all employees, the group claimed that it needed the resolution so it "did not have to ordain sexually active gay ministers and did not have to provide medical benefits to the same-sex partners of employees." After lawmakers and civil rights activists revealed the Salvation Army's active resistance to non-discrimination laws, the White House admitted the charity was seeking the exemptions.
• Also in 2001, the evangelical charity actively lobbied to change how the Bush administration would distribute over $24 billion in grants and tax deductions by urging the White House deny funding to any cities or states that included LGBT non-discrimination laws. Ari Fleischer, White House press secretary, issued a statement saying the administration was denying a "regulation sought by the church to protect the right of taxpayer-funded religious organizations to discriminate against homosexuals."
• In 2004, the Salvation Army threatened to close all their soup kitchens in New York City to protest the city's decision to require all vendors and charities doing business with the city to adhere to all civil rights laws. The organization balked at having to treat gay employees equal to straight employees.

http://www.bilerico.com/2011/11/why_you_shouldnt_donate_to_the_salvation_army_bell.php

[Rue]

Comparing Hamas to the Salvation Army is absurd. No wing of the Salvation Army has ever engaged in terror.

I am not sure how more absurd this thread will get.

I do appreciate Jacee's comments. I think Jacee the way you put it I am ok with that. I think you know what I meant.I just don't want good people who ae of any religion being lumped in with the perverts or sob's in their religion. I still think the perverts and a-holes and whatever we call them do not and should not be said to represent their religion-I say they use their religion as a pretense or cover to engage in their crimes and the bureaucratic structure of their organizations enables the crap to go unaccountable.

I tell you why I say that. I have counselled Catholics molested by Priests. They blame their own religious beliefs. That's a horrible thing. They should not have to give up on their faith because of some son of a bitch using the bureaucratic structure and corruption to get away with what they did.

That victim has a right to be Catholic and not have to give it up because of some sob and I say that as a non Christian. I just think such people should not have to feel they did something wrong and have to change. They did not.

The sob's who use religion are opportunistic manipulators. That's all I mean. I do not presume to tell people who and what to believe. I understand some are so badly burned they can not go back. I respect that too. I just say to people, don't lose your faith whatever it is because of some sob who tried to taint it. Dpn't let those son's take something away from you.

The idiots in any religion deserve a good kick in the ass.