Russia Defeated Obscurantism Fascism

[August1991]

Here's the Toronto Star's View. I can go through other naive Canadian views. What nonsense.

But I must say, as a historical fact, Russia defeated the Eastern Mongol and Turk. Russia defeated the Western Fascist Napoleon, and the Fascist German. Russia will defeat this Eastern Islamist too.

The "West" is naive and foolish about life. The "West" is a dilettante.

[Black Dog]

Here's the Toronto Star's View. I can go through other naive Canadian views. What nonsense.

That's the sum total of your analysis? A little thin, I'd say.

[The Terrible Sweal]

And then there's this gem...

The "West" is naive and foolish about life. The "West" is a dilettante.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

Russia defeated the Western Fascist Napoleon, and the Fascist German.

Not really, winter did.

[August1991]

Russia defeated the Western Fascist Napoleon, and the Fascist German.

Not really, winter did.

I don't know how many Russians died defeating Napoleon. It is estimated 20 million died defeating Hitler. (I don't want to hear about how Stalin was responsible for many of these deaths.) The fact is that if Russians had not stood up to Hitler's army, cold weather or not, Nazi Germany would have colonized Eastern Europe.

Handleman's article is good reporting. As a journalist should, he reports accurately what he saw. Handleman's spin however is pathetic. The Western spin on Russia's situation is pathetic too.

For 200 years, the Mongol hordes governed Russians. For the past 200 years or so, Russians have dealt with the nations of the Caucasus.

Do Russians view this problem differently? Well, Americans horrifically lost two large buildings in NYC. The Australians lost many in a night club. Many Spaniards were killed going to work. Russians have twice seen mass hostage takings.

We in Canada fortunately have not suffered such an event. How would we respond if it happens? Who knows? Each country seems to respond in its own way. When push comes to shove, what is the true nature of Canadians? Is there even one nature anymore?

On this web forum, and elsewhere, I see comments from many people that are pure dilettantism.

Using history as a guide, I will trust the Russian response.

[takeanumber]

Dear August1991,

QUOTE

Russia defeated the Western Fascist Napoleon, and the Fascist German.

Not really, winter did.

This is a common statement made by anti-slavic people.

I give full credit to the Russian people for defeating both fascists.

They burned everything, harrassed supply lines, and during the Great Patriotic War, moved whole factories furthur East, and produced an incredible amount.

Did winter play a part?

Sure it did.

But I think it was a very small part compared to the overall picture.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you're not anti-slavic.

I'm not even Russian or slavic, and I still took offense.

-----------------------------------

Russia is a bear.

The Islamists really have awoken that bear.

Russia's grumbling now about striking terror wherever it is, well, I didn't like the Bush doctrine.

Look where it's gotten us.

I don't think it's a good thing.

But I think the Russians are going to go all Swordfish. (The movie, if you've seen it, you'll understand the idea).

They're a welcomed ally.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear takeanumber,

This is a common statement made by anti-slavic people.

I give full credit to the Russian people for defeating both fascists.

No, I am not anti-slav. The Russians fought (especially in WWII) with incredible fanatacism and bravery. However, they were getting crushed until winter set in. Hitler had delayed 'Barbarossa' by 8 weeks, but still thought he'd have Moscow by winter, so he neglected to provide any sort of winter clothing or equipment to his troops. Then, Hitler personally diverted over a third of his strength to grab the oil-rich Caucasus(Where Chechnya is, by the way) instead of easily taking Moscow.

Stalin had just 'purged' 35,000 Army officers to ensure the loyalty of the rest, and was at the time in no position to withstand the Germans. Until winter.

[Black Dog]

Handleman's article is good reporting. As a journalist should, he reports accurately what he saw. Handleman's spin however is pathetic. The Western spin on Russia's situation is pathetic too.

Again: what's your beef with his analysis?

What the anti-Western mood does is enable Moscow to press home the argument that no one can be expected to look after, or understand, Russian interests except Russians themselves.

It's a mood that will inevitably lead to larger and more fundamental disagreements on issues far beyond terrorism. Not all Russian intellectuals and politicians buy the official line.

"This is a society now run by the secret services," fumed one conference participant who had been a leader of Moscow's pro-democracy movement in the 1990s. "It's no way to develop Russia."

Or to achieve a safer world.

Using history as a guide, I will trust the Russian response.

Even if it entails mass slaughter of civilians? Indefinite arrest and detention? Rape and pillage? Would that be the proper, manly response in your books? I mean, all the Americans did was invade two countries, detain thousands of suspects indefinitely, kill tens of thousands of civilians, and create a new precedent for unilateral military action wheneve rthey damn well pleas. I mean: what a bunch of pussies.

On this web forum, and elsewhere, I see comments from many people that are pure dilettantism.

Oooh "obscurantism". "Dilettantism." Someone hide the thesarus. Tell me, are these fancy words there to hide the fundamental lack of a coherent thesis? You complain about the "western analysis" without saying what it is and what your problem with it is. You praise "the Russian response" without having any clue what it might entail.

What is your point?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear takeanumber,

Even if it entails mass slaughter of civilians? Indefinite arrest and detention? Rape and pillage?

As Black Dog states, we shouldn't forget that the Russians raped and pillaged while defeating the 'facists'. Rape on an unprecedented scale, although the 'Rape of Nanking' was pretty bad. It was said amongst the German populace, (regarding the Russians) "Now a girl is only safe if she is seven years old or seven months pregnant".

[Black Dog]

deleted

[RGood]

I don’t like the Bush doctrine either. Our strategists call Russian tragedy in Beslan as scarcely probable event, which nevertheless has far-reaching repercussions for the whole world. Such extent of evil must not be forgotten. And there is of no importance what motives or political excuses were for it. But fairly speaking it’s rather strange that’s just Russia (not USA) became the main target of international terrorism’ attacks. It was Bush (not Putin) who first declared “war on this world-wide evil” and began military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. And everyone knows that Kremlin refused to support US-led antiterrorist coalition and to send Russian troops there. Nevertheless just now Chechen terrorists have passed to mass offensive against Russia. And they were not alone here… It’s obvious such case can unlikely be concurrence, because such “professional game” of Chechen and international terrorists plays into Bush’s hands. Their recent series of terrorist attacks prompt Russia supporting USA policy in respect of Afghanistan and Iraq and simultaneously they help Bush in his struggle for a second term. My hilarious conclusions are also confirmed by public leniency of Washington regarding tough policy of Russia in Chechnya.

[takeanumber]

As Black Dog states, we shouldn't forget that the Russians raped and pillaged while defeating the 'facists'. Rape on an unprecedented scale, although the 'Rape of Nanking' was pretty bad. It was said amongst the German populace, (regarding the Russians) "Now a girl is only safe if she is seven years old or seven months pregnant".

I'm not going to defend Russian barbarism.

Let's face it, we're all hard pressed to name a country that hasn't had a barbaric episode...even a single one. I think maybe a few pacific islands might be exceptional, perhaps, hmmmm, maybe Laos doesn't have dirty diapers, Singapore..but that's about it...Malta....Gambia, I think every other country has had a barabaric episode, be it domestic or international.

That said, if you hate the Bush doctrine, be more afraid of Bush than Putin. See, Putin would LIKE to take on quite a few countries, but he can't, because he doesn't have the power to do so.

Bush, on the other hand, you better believe he still has the power. There's a lot to be said for experience. Give those troops a year or two's rest after Iraq, and they'll be ready to take on the tougher nuts. Moreover, the size of the US armed forces are really going to swell IF there's ever a nuclear detonation on American soil.

Ditto Russia.

That said:

In my view, Russia is a good ally in the war on terror. I don't like the fact that they're not going to fight it cleanly. Neither is the US. I prefer the high ground at all times. That, and I can't tolerate torture or genocide.

I won't stand shoulder to shoulder with the terrorists, but I'll stand a little bit closer to Russia.

---------------------------

On the final point, Russia beat Germany. Hands down.

Winter played a part.

But the industriousness of the Russian people, who did not want to be relegated to Canadian style reserves guarded by the Nazi's, fought back and won the war.

[socrates]

about your earlier comments of whether stalin beat hitler or winter .if you want the truth war(if you for get pure force) its not just how smart your strategy is its the instant exploitation of your enemy s dumb mistakes or just your enemys dumb mistake. so in truth hitler was beaten by him self when instead of just taking russia he tried to take the oil and then winter came and thats why he lost.

[barbarosa]

What are you trying to get at?

and though the russians faught bravely mother nature relly won the day

of course Hitler didnt take weather into account, that was one of his biggest mistakes

what is the point of this conversation?

how does it realate to islam?