Medical Care for the Aged...To What Purpose?

[Muddy]

I had a brother who was diagnosed with cancer. Six months the doctors said. My other brother and I took him to dinner. We laughed and told storys about our life as three brothers. Great night with great food. I drove him home and he asked me to come in and have a beer. Of course I did. Finished the beer and was about to go. He instructed me to never come back,but to remember him this night as a happy man. I kissed him good bye and never saw him alive again. I talked to his daughter later. He refused to go to the hospital till the day he died. He wanted his beer,smokes and TV as long as he could. He did it his way. Got to hand it to him. He was always a rough and tumble guy. He was to the end.

My other brother pretty well went the same way. God they were tough wonderful guys.

I have had a heart attack and nearly died a few years ago. I hope that I go at the hands of a jealous lover. Just so long as it`s fast and gives folks some great gossip.

Trouble is my wonderful wife will not let me have any illicit affairs. She spoils all my fun . Just kidding ! Maybe I will have to settle for some dareing do !

But gosh I don`t want to linger without some zest for life.

Although a Christian and I know that I have a pretty good chance of going to heaven , I found some loop holes in the bible,I still am in no hurry. Why is that ?

If I become a burden I will try and get up to James Bay and take a voyage on a piece of ice. Wait for a Polar Bear to wrestle.

[Pliny]

I told my Grandmother to give my love to my brother who died young. It helped her let go.

My sympathies jbg.

Great advice. And I am not being sarcastic.

[Pliny]

double post

Edited February 22, 2013 by Pliny

[Pliny]

Although a Christian and I know that I have a pretty good chance of going to heaven , I found some loop holes in the bible,I still am in no hurry. Why is that ?

It's in our DNA.

If I become a burden I will try and get up to James Bay and take a voyage on a piece of ice. Wait for a Polar Bear to wrestle.

You crusty old fart. Polar ice caps and polar bears will be long gone before you give it up.

[Muddy]

It's in our DNA.You crusty old fart. Polar ice caps and polar bears will be long gone before you give it up.

It's in our DNA.You crusty old fart. Polar ice caps and polar bears will be long gone before you give it up.

Now you see why we need the Seal hunt going strong. There are no shortages of the beasts. We can feed the polar bears. When I go you can feed my sorry ass to them too. Magnificent carnivores. I think the Polar Bears will adapt and survive. But thats another subject.

[jbg]

Back to the topic, my mother's been out of rehab now for a few weeks and just two days ago I let her drive again. So life is a bit better for now.

But at some point things deteriorate again. I don't know why we persist in keeping people going just to experience another operation and then rehab. Rinse, wash, repeat.

[Guest American Woman]

I don't know why we persist in keeping people going just to experience another operation and then rehab. Rinse, wash, repeat.

Shouldn't that be up to the individual? At what point to you think society should just make people die?

As a side note, many young people live a life of "rinse, wash, repeat" - Cystic Fibrosis comes to mind.

[jbg]

Shouldn't that be up to the individual? At what point to you think society should just make people die?

Of course, if the person is in a position to make that or any decision. That is why we now have living wills a/k/a/ advance directives and health care proxies.

As a side note, many young people live a life of "rinse, wash, repeat" - Cystic Fibrosis comes to mind.

Of course. But it is far less likely and far less frequent for any person.

[jacee]

Back to the topic, my mother's been out of rehab now for a few weeks and just two days ago I let her drive again. So life is a bit better for now.

But at some point things deteriorate again. I don't know why we persist in keeping people going just to experience another operation and then rehab. Rinse, wash, repeat.

"we persist in keeping people going" ???

That would be because "we" don't make decisions to end people's lives.

I can't imagine that you're seriously suggesting that.

[Bonam]

Back to the topic, my mother's been out of rehab now for a few weeks and just two days ago I let her drive again. So life is a bit better for now.

But at some point things deteriorate again. I don't know why we persist in keeping people going just to experience another operation and then rehab. Rinse, wash, repeat.

What do you mean "we persist in keeping people going"? People are able to make these choices for themselves. Now this is gonna be harsh, but it almost sounds like you want society to take this choice away from you and your ailing mother because you and her are too afraid or unable to discuss these things and make the right choices for yourselves. It sounds like you want the government to consign her to death so she can stop troubling you. I can understand the feelings of someone that is tired of caring for a dying relative and just wants it to be over, such feelings are perfectly natural and normal, nothing to be ashamed about. But it is each family's place to find their own answers, not for society to dictate to them when someone should be put out of their misery.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Bonam

[jbg]

"we persist in keeping people going" ???

That would be because "we" don't make decisions to end people's lives.

I can't imagine that you're seriously suggesting that.

What do you mean "we persist in keeping people going"? People are able to make these choices for themselves. Now this is gonna be harsh, but it almost sounds like you want society to take this choice away from you and your ailing mother because you and her are too afraid or unable to discuss these things and make the right choices for yourselves. It sounds like you want the government to consign her to death so she can stop troubling you. I can understand the feelings of someone that is tired of caring for a dying relative and just wants it to be over, such feelings are perfectly natural and normal, nothing to be ashamed about. But it is each family's place to find their own answers, not for society to dictate to them when someone should be put out of their misery.

i will answer both of you.

Back before "free" health coverage for the aged (yes, Canada has it for all) medical costs were far lower. They have expanded by leaps and bounds for two primary reasons: 1) medicine can do far more and is more sophisticated; and 2) third party payment has made cost no longer a concern to those receiving treatment and their families.

Back before Medicare or Canada's "free" health coverage, families faced with illness had to make hard choices. Some families just could not afford medical care. Those that could had to decide if the moneys were better used for operations on a person in their seventies or for education for the younger generation. The choices were admittedly quite harsh but had to be made.

Now, cost is no longer a concern. Any medical procedure that prolongs life, no matter how objectively futile in any long term sense, must be done. The patient is often given a rosy scenario for expectations of recovery and then, when they emerge from a post-operative fog, often much diminished in mental and physical capacity, they and their families are told to be "realistic." All at the cost of hundreds of thousands of poorly spent or downright wasted dollars.

The suffering, both for the patient and for the family, is immense. The fact is, we treat our pet dogs better at the end of life.

[jacee]

i will answer both of you.

Back before "free" health coverage for the aged (yes, Canada has it for all) medical costs were far lower. They have expanded by leaps and bounds for two primary reasons: 1) medicine can do far more and is more sophisticated; and 2) third party payment has made cost no longer a concern to those receiving treatment and their families.

Back before Medicare or Canada's "free" health coverage, families faced with illness had to make hard choices. Some families just could not afford medical care. Those that could had to decide if the moneys were better used for operations on a person in their seventies or for education for the younger generation. The choices were admittedly quite harsh but had to be made.

Now, cost is no longer a concern. Any medical procedure that prolongs life, no matter how objectively futile in any long term sense, must be done. The patient is often given a rosy scenario for expectations of recovery and then, when they emerge from a post-operative fog, often much diminished in mental and physical capacity, they and their families are told to be "realistic." All at the cost of hundreds of thousands of poorly spent or downright wasted dollars.

The suffering, both for the patient and for the family, is immense. The fact is, we treat our pet dogs better at the end of life.

By 'putting them down' you mean?

[Guest American Woman]

Of course, if the person is in a position to make that or any decision. That is why we now have living wills a/k/a/ advance directives and health care proxies.

So what's the problem? Let people decide for themselves. I sure don't want anyone else deciding that for me or my loved ones.

[jbg]

By 'putting them down' you mean?

When the suffering gets that immense I favor, with stringent safeguards, assisted suicide. That is what I meant.

So what's the problem? Let people decide for themselves. I sure don't want anyone else deciding that for me or my loved ones.

That's fine unless you're paying for it.

[bush_cheney2004]

So what's the problem? Let people decide for themselves. I sure don't want anyone else deciding that for me or my loved ones.

Agreed.....that's why living wills and DNR forms/bracelets are becoming so popular. I sure as hell don't want somebody else deciding what is too much or too little suffering for my family and I because it's a burden for them. Dyin' is part of livin'.

[jacee]

When the suffering gets that immense I favor, with stringent safeguards, assisted suicide. That is what I meant.

That's fine unless you're paying for it.

I call that a good argument for Canadian healthcare ... so nobody else can 'volunteer' elders for 'suicide'.

[Guest]

As long as elders are allowed to volunteer themselves.

[Melanie_]

The assisted suicide discussion has been a hot topic in Winnipeg lately, since Susan Griffiths went public with her story. She was diagnosed with a nasty degenerative disease that was not treatable, and has travelled to Switzerland to be able to die on her own terms, in an assisted suicide clinic. I understand her stance on this, and would want to have the opportunity to choose for myself as well. But, I've heard some very compelling statements made from the other side of the debate. At what point does someone feel guilted into making the choice, because they are a "burden"? A group concerned with the rights of people with disabilities pointed out that we have suicide prevention groups for everyone else, but this could create a suicide activist group for vulnerable people. And who decides what pain is worthy of suicide? I worry about people who are in the midst of a mental health crisis, who often see suicide as the only way to end their pain. On the other hand, perhaps if Reteah Parsons had sought out someone to assist her suicide she could have been given the help she needed to carry on.

The government isn't willing to open the topic up for discussion, but I think there will be more and more people like Susan Griffiths who push the topic into the spotlight.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2013/04/08/mb-assisted-suicide-griffiths-susan-europe-letters-mps.html

[jbg]

The assisted suicide discussion has been a hot topic in Winnipeg lately, since Susan Griffiths went public with her story. She was diagnosed with a nasty degenerative disease that was not treatable, and has travelled to Switzerland to be able to die on her own terms, in an assisted suicide clinic. I understand her stance on this, and would want to have the opportunity to choose for myself as well. But, I've heard some very compelling statements made from the other side of the debate. At what point does someone feel guilted into making the choice, because they are a "burden"?

To me that's the wrong question. The question in my mind is if each day is going to be worse than the day before and the next day is going to be even worse, the question is "what for?" A "burden" on loved ones is fine if it's for a good cause, for some net benefit. If that is not in the cards, then why continue?

I'll make it concrete. My mother had a hysterectomy during 2008. The chemo was debilitating then, and cost her a good amount, though not all, of her memory. That slowly recovered. The cancer recurred with a vengeance at the end of 2011. The surgery and awful aftercare during the hospital stay left her disoriented. After recovering some basic sanity she started on chemo during April 2012. At first it wasn't too bad. By the end of the summer she had much of her memory and physical strength sapped. She switched to hormone therapy, which is experimental and weaker. So far that has kept the cancer at bay. We are told that won't be the case for long. In fact statistically she's long dead.

Another round of surgery (supposedly for non-cancerous obstructions) put her back in the hospital, albeit a better hospital, as 2012 turned into 2013. She emerged with her short-term memory and personality shredded. Now, bit by bit, on the more benign hormone therapy she's coming back to her former vivacious personality.

The dilemma is not long into the future. Her oncologist wants an MRI. I am torn about whether to allow it since even if the cancer is regenerating, as any reader can see, going back to surgery or chemo is not an option.

Is rejecting those options assisted suicide?