RW Authoritarians Rolling back Cannabis decriminalization in Canada

[Guest Derek L]

Sorry, you must have me confused with someone else, I never mentioned that.

You've never brought up an increase in mental illness levels?

[eyeball]

No, not of the type or in the context being discussed in this thread. Perhaps you're recalling our discussing the cohort of older people who own guns that are also developing dementia.

[Guest Derek L]

No, not of the type or in the context being discussed in this thread. Perhaps you're recalling our discussing the cohort of older people who own guns that are also developing dementia.

Perhaps I worded the referenced (to you) post wrong……….to clarify, with societies suggested (by you) increase in mental illnesses, if we’re looking for causes, perhaps one such possible cause could be attributed to the increase in Marijuana usage over the last 40-50 years.

[eyeball]

Excuse me but where did I suggest that again?

[Guest Derek L]

Excuse me but where did I suggest that again?

So you're not suggesting, now, that we will see an increase in mental illness?

[punked]

Well, no we don’t, just as we don’t treat booze, cheeseburgers and cigarettes the same……..I can sit here and converse with you well drinking a bottle of Budweiser well my son sits not ten feet away watching a movie on tv…….If I were sitting here smoking a joint (or a cigarette) the negative associated attributes would also effect him……..But if I where smoking a cigarette, unlike Pot or booze, I could drive up to McDonalds without impaired judgement, thusly not potentially endangering other motorists, well returning with a poisonous double cheeseburger for my son and I………….Clearly they are not all the same.

Now if you were to ask if I felt you should be able to legally poison yourself with pot, my answer would be yes but with restrictions like said other “vices”………….

No we very much treat alcohol and cigarettes the same. Age limits on purchase, regulation on distribution. I am happy though we can agree if the ballot question is "Should we treat pot as we do alcohol?" like it was on the ballots that passed this year you would agree.

[punked]

So you're not suggesting, now, that we will see an increase in mental illness?

Considering almost all scientist agree the increase in mental illness AROUND THE WORLD (even in countries with no pot use) is that we have a better understanding of the mind and diagnoses techniques you are just reaching. I mean any idiot can reason that one out. The first diagnoses manual didn't even come out until 1955 and no one who was a doctor at the time knew how to use it. Now doctors are trained on the DSM-IV (which only came out in 1995) and can actually understand and diagnoses illness better. There isn't more mental illness today there are just more people seeking help and being identified. I for one think that is a good thing you long for the days when people hid it eh? Anyone with half a brain can reason that out.

Now if we stopped spending Billions on crappy prohibition and spent more on our health care and mental illness we might actually get somewhere. To bad some people feel the need to push junk science because they are to stupid to read the studies that come out and think for themselves. Right Derek?

Edited February 3, 2013 by punked

[Guest Manny]

<Content deleted by Manny>

Edited April 4, 2013 by Manny

[punked]

But you said the smoking rates dont change with legalization. They all smoke the same, so schizophrenia rates will stay the same.

There are countries in the world "Japan" that have a different drug of choice. Just as different places drink different sodas. We can look at those countries that have high consumption level and those have a low consumption level and compare the rates. When we do this Schizophrenic rates stay the same roughly around 1 in 100 people. So the question then becomes. Do people smoke and become Schizophrenic? Or is seeking out drugs to treat ones self a first sign of Schizophrenia and is that why alcohol and cigarettes SHOW THE SAME LINKS to Schizophrenia? We need research on that if you hope to prove your case. Problem for you is the second makes way more sense when looking at the data set.

[Guest Manny]

<Content deleted by Manny>

Edited April 4, 2013 by Manny

[Rocky Road]

http://www.cmha.ca/m...s/#.UQ30ZB1JPao

and:

http://www.drugabuse...facts/marijuana

So perhaps we should study the reefer further, perhaps it’s increase in usage over the last ~40-50 years can also be the cause of the increased levels of mental illness (as mentioned frequently by Eyeball) found today……..As I understand it, today’s Pot is vastly stronger when contrasted with the pot found in the 60s and 70s………..

Yes.

[punked]

Is Japan your only example? Reporting rates for drugs and mental illness will be quite different in Japan. They have the highest suicide rates in the world there. This shows theres a lot of people with unreported issues there. Japan may not be a useful comparison.

Assuming smoking rates go neither up nor down when a country legalizes, it may not even be useful to compare rates in legalized vs. Non.

Legality isnt the issue here. Let the doctors and scientists do their research, and publish their work.

So far we've seen some good examples of that. Where's your research? Your peudo-scientific approach to comparing dissimal cultures based on a few numbers is sadly lacking. For reasons described herein.

I posted the most recent Scientific article (BTW I POSTED THE REAL ARTICLE NOT SOME MEDIA BULLSHIT) with the conclusion being there is no science at this time that supports a causation link between the two. Go back and read it.

Here is a new question for you should we run peoples lives who smoke because you don't understand science. I'll cite three people in the world who have smoked marijuana they didn't become crazy because they smoked and they would never have become who they are today if they were caught at the time because people like you want ruin peoples lives who are caught with a drug that is more harmless then alcohol.

Obama, Bush, Clinton. All smoked, none of them went crazy, and they all went on to be successful. You would rather lock up people who have potential and can go on to do great things because you don't understand science then let society actually treat mental illness. Think of all the money we would have to actually treat illness if we didn't spend all that money locking people up who are going to smoke regardless.

So I have made my argument about why your science is junk and have even posted to real scientific articles from real scientist out of real journals. Second argument for legalization. What does keeping the drug criminal actually do Manny? It creates criminals out of law abiding citizens. People who contribute to our society to make it better.

There was a big arrest in NS last month. Who did they catch? Was it some low life who have mental issues? Nope they arrested A doctor, an elementary school principle, a Canadian Olympian, a Hockey coach and 25 other people who actually make our society better to live in.

http://thechronicleh...-marijuana-bust

So what is your argument for keeping it illegal? That we should be making criminals out of people of have the potential to make society much better? Considering almost half of Canada has tired the drug you think half our country should go to jail then? If not why the hypocrisy? Think about it. You might hate marijuana and you might never smoke it but keeping it illegal makes criminals out of people who do nothing wrong. I am an NDP member who was always against the gun registry, know why? I am not a fan of making criminals out of people in our society who have done nothing wrong. You are though? You must agree the law is outdated and must change. When we would be sending Presidents, Olympians, Doctors, and Principles to jail their is something wrong with the law. Can we meet halfway the law as it is wrong. We can agree there?

Edited February 3, 2013 by punked

[Rocky Road]

low life who have mental issues?

Whoa. Sounds to me like you suffer from the prejudice that alot of people have to the mentally ill. STIGMA is a huge problem, and as much as you want to discredit those people that get ill from marijuana they still deserve compassion and care.

You speak of the common place usage of the drug, well, that is part of the problem, people think it is safe, and it is not.

http://www.ontario.c...ts.asp?cID=2795

When someone appears to be different than us, we may view him or her in a negative stereotyped manner. People who have identities that society values negatively are said to be stigmatized. Stigma is a reality for people with a mental illness, and they report that how others judge them is one of their greatest barriers to a complete and satisfying life. Society feels uncomfortable about mental illness. It is not seen like other illnesses such as heart disease and cancer. Due to inaccuracies and misunderstandings, people have been led to believe that an individual with a mental illness has a weak character or is inevitably dangerous. Mental illness can be called the invisible illness. Often, the only way to know whether someone has been diagnosed with a mental illness is if they tell you. The majority of the public is unaware of how many mentally ill people they know and encounter every day.

• One in five people in Ontario will experience a mental illness at some point in his or her lifetime.
  
• Mental illness affects people of all ages, in all kinds of jobs and at all educational levels.
  

What are the effects of stigma?

If you became physically ill, you would go to a doctor. Once you got better you would expect to get on with life as usual. Life, however, does not always fit back into place for people diagnosed with a mental illness. Everyone has the right to fully participate in his or her community, but individuals struggling to overcome a mental illness can find themselves facing a constant series of rejections and exclusions.

Due to stigma, the typical reaction encountered by someone with a mental illness (and his or her family members) is fear and rejection. Some have been denied adequate housing, loans, health insurance and jobs due to their history of mental illness. Due to the stigma associated with the illness, many people have found that they lose their self-esteem and have difficulty making friends. The stigma attached to mental illness is so pervasive that people who suspect that they might be mentally ill are unwilling to seek help for fear of what others may think. Spouses may be reluctant to define their partners as mentally ill, while families may delay seeking help for their child because of their fears and shame.

Why does stigma surround mental illness?

We all have an idea of what someone with a mental illness is like, but most of our views and interpretations have been distorted through strongly held social beliefs. The media, as a reflection of society, has done much to sustain a distorted view of mental illness. Television or movie characters who are aggressive, dangerous and unpredictable can have their behaviour attributed to a mental illness. Mental illness also has not received the sensitive media coverage that other illnesses have been given. We are surrounded by stereotypes, popular movies talk about killers who are “psychos,” and there is news coverage of mental illness only when it is related to violence. We also often hear the casual use of terms like “lunatic” or “crazy,” along with jokes about the mentally ill. These representations and the use of discriminatory language distort the public’s view and reinforce inaccuracies about mental illness.

How do we erase stigma?

We can battle stigma when we have facts. We all have times when we feel depressed, get unreasonably angry or over-excited. We even have periods when we think that everything and everybody is out to get us and that we can’t cope. For someone with a mental illness these feelings become enveloping and overwhelming. There is no particular way to develop a mental illness. For some people, it occurs due to genetic factors in their family. Other causes may relate to environment stressors such as experiences of severe child abuse, war, torture, poverty, loss, isolation, neglect or abandonment. Mental illnesses can also occur in combination with substance abuse. No matter how people develop mental illness, there is usually some form of support available which will help them to improve their health and lead a productive life. The support of family, friends and employers is also critical.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Rocky Road

[punked]

Whoa. Sounds to me like you suffer from the prejudice that alot of people have to the mentally ill. STIGMA is a huge problem, and as much as you want to discredit those people that get ill from marijuana they still deserve compassion and care.

You speak of the common place usage of the drug, well, that is part of the problem, people think it is safe, and it is not.

There is no stigma here. I am pointing out that 99% of all people who smoke have no mental illness, and even though it is criminal those doing it and getting busted for are often esteemed members of our society not criminals. People like you want to make them criminals.

Again I ask you are you for making Presidents, Olympians, Doctors etc. Criminals? Or do you think we should change the law you keep arguing against changing? Is making criminals out of some of our best and brightest a bad thing? Is their a better way to keep drugs out of the hands of kids?

[Rocky Road]

...

What about sobriety?

Don't you see the virtue in being sober.

I think part of the being high is an overzealous attitude and a confidence in that mindset that is ill informed.

Look at Marc Emery, the "Prince of pot" ...where did Pot activism get him? In jail in the US for several years making purses for the privatized prison system in the US. I bet ya he is thinking twice about all that hot air he was blowing about weed and overgrowing the government

Edited February 3, 2013 by Rocky Road

[cybercoma]

Causation/correlation ...that's a fine line, and why are you so adamantly defending the safety of smoking cannabis? Anyway you cut it, it is a hard sell because the effect of smoking is to cause psychoactive effects on the brain. Whether "good" or "bad".

You know what else is "psychoactive" turkey. Stop eating it because it's a mild sedative.

[cybercoma]

Perhaps I worded the referenced (to you) post wrong……….to clarify, with societies suggested (by you) increase in mental illnesses, if we’re looking for causes, perhaps one such possible cause could be attributed to the increase in Marijuana usage over the last 40-50 years.

There is absolutely no evidence that marijuana causes mental illness. So stop repeating the same stupid myth over and over again. The studies do not say that any more than they say that wearing a raincoat causes it to rain.

[GostHacked]

Yes Cannabis does cause schizophrenia and mental illness, young people are naive to the dangers of this drug.

We are way too tolerant of its use in society.

Geeze by that we should have an epidemic of schizophrenia. But we do not.

Ever think it's the ritalin and other prescription medication young kids are put on that causes those things? Jonny is diagnosed ADHD, Jonny got on Palil, Jonny started acting different, Jonny took his own life.

Not once have I seen suicidal thoughts tenancies from a pot smoker.

[cybercoma]

Is Japan your only example? Reporting rates for drugs and mental illness will be quite different in Japan. They have the highest suicide rates in the world there. This shows theres a lot of people with unreported issues there. Japan may not be a useful comparison.

Assuming smoking rates go neither up nor down when a country legalizes, it may not even be useful to compare rates in legalized vs. Non.

Legality isnt the issue here. Let the doctors and scientists do their research, and publish their work.

So far we've seen some good examples of that. Where's your research? Your peudo-scientific approach to comparing dissimal cultures based on a few numbers is sadly lacking. For reasons described herein.

even the article that Rocky Road posted earlier had 1/4 subjects smoking pot, while only 1/100 had schizophrenia. So, it's not even a bit of a stretch to say smoking pot causes schizophrenia later. It's just wrong. What may cause schizophrenia is a particular genetic trait. Those that have schizophrenia exacerbate their symptoms with drug use. That's not at all the same thing as concluding that smoking pot causes someone to become schizophrenic.

[GostHacked]

Considering almost all scientist agree the increase in mental illness AROUND THE WORLD (even in countries with no pot use) is that we have a better understanding of the mind and diagnoses techniques you are just reaching. I mean any idiot can reason that one out. The first diagnoses manual didn't even come out until 1955 and no one who was a doctor at the time knew how to use it. Now doctors are trained on the DSM-IV (which only came out in 1995) and can actually understand and diagnoses illness better. There isn't more mental illness today there are just more people seeking help and being identified. I for one think that is a good thing you long for the days when people hid it eh? Anyone with half a brain can reason that out.

Now if we stopped spending Billions on crappy prohibition and spent more on our health care and mental illness we might actually get somewhere. To bad some people feel the need to push junk science because they are to stupid to read the studies that come out and think for themselves. Right Derek?

I am skeptical of those DSM manuals. They include shyness as a disorder. WTF. Any human condition they can classify as a disorder and prescribe a pill for it. In my personal view and experience the Psychiatric industry is a total sham. You want to solve mental issues, you need to see a psychologist, not a psychiatrist.

[cybercoma]

It's like a bunch of you in this thread not only can't read the science that you're claiming supports your argument, but you're too stubborn to actually understand the science when it's brought down to your level as well. There's no point in arguing things with people who are simultaneously ignorant and bullheaded.

[cybercoma]

I am skeptical of those DSM manuals. They include shyness as a disorder. WTF. Any human condition they can classify as a disorder and prescribe a pill for it. In my personal view and experience the Psychiatric industry is a total sham. You want to solve mental issues, you need to see a psychologist, not a psychiatrist.

Clinical psychologists use the DSM to diagnose people as well.

[GostHacked]

Obama, Bush, Clinton. All smoked, none of them went crazy, and they all went on to be successful.

No I'd say that all three of them are very much clinically insane. However it's not due to pot.

[punked]

Here is my favorite study. It is a twin study. So they have the same DNA, same environment etc. Once twin used pot regularly for 20 years the other did not. What did they find? That there was no difference between either twin. Guess there goes the the theory that it causes Mental illness right?

Out of the numerous measures that were administered, only one significant difference was noted between marijuana-using twins and their non-using co-twins on cognitive functioning. The results indicate an absence of marked long-term residual effects of marijuana use on cognitive abilities.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15697050

[Guest Derek L]

There is absolutely no evidence that marijuana causes mental illness. So stop repeating the same stupid myth over and over again. The studies do not say that any more than they say that wearing a raincoat causes it to rain.

Well there is, in the links that I posted earlier, and as mentioned in them, further research is required……….As pointed out earlier by RR, what effect does smoking a single joint do on the brain, or IOW, if the Pot didn’t give you a buzz, why would you smoke it? Does Pot unnaturally alter the chemistry within your brain?