Which crime is worse...

[Guest American Woman]

I don't think there can be a source.

So it's a bogus claim. It's nothing but his opinion. Which was the point I was making.

I sure would rather be raped than spend (let's say 8 years for the sake of argument) in jail for a rape I did not commit, along with the concomitant loss of one's previous life that would no doubt accompany that, but I bet no survey has ever been done.

So you think 8 years in prison is worse than pregnancy as the result of a rape (which is a lifetime thing), possibly losing your husband because he doesn't understand, getting a lifetime STD, living with fear - these are all as real a possibility as your scenarios.

Edit> I just did it again. Made a post, looked at it, and thought, maybe that's the wrong thing to say. So I edited it. It happens. Best intentions notwithstanding.

I find it interesting to note that we have a few men here saying they'd rather get raped - going to prison is worse - yet not one woman has said that being raped is worse, but that both are bad. I have to think a man has no idea whatsoever what it's like to be raped. And yes, quite frankly, picking one as "worse" is downplaying the other. How can it not be?

[Guest]

So it's a bogus claim. It's nothing but his opinion. Which was the point I was making.

So you think 8 years in prison is worse than pregnancy as the result of a rape (which is a lifetime thing), possibly losing your husband because he doesn't understand, getting a lifetime STD, living with fear - these are all as real a possibility as your scenarios.

I find it interesting to note that we have a few men here saying they'd rather get raped - going to prison is worse - yet not one woman has said that being raped is worse, but that both are bad. I have to think a man has no idea whatsoever what it's like to be raped. And yes, quite frankly, picking one as "worse" is downplaying the other. How can it not be?

I made the post, I would know. It is not downplaying rape.

As for your point about men. We don't have the fear that a women would have of rape, but most prisons are full of men. Maybe that's why I would make the choice I would.

[Guest American Woman]

I made the post, I would know. It is not downplaying rape.

Yes, it is. You may have made the post, but I'm a woman reading the post, and to say it's worse to be accused than to be raped, even after I've pointed out the consequences women suffer as a result of rape, is downplaying it. To say you would know that it's not downplaying it because you made the post is like someone saying something racist and then arguing that it isn't racist because they said it, so they would know.

As for your point about men. We don't have the fear that a women would have of rape, but most prisons are full of men. Maybe that's why I would make the choice I would.

I understand your choice as your chances of being raped are all but nil, but to say it's "worse" is downplaying it, whether you think it is or not.

[Guest]

Yes, it is. You may have made the post, but I'm a woman reading the post, and to say it's worse to be accused than to be raped, even after I've pointed out the consequences women suffer as a result of rape, is downplaying it. To say you would know that it's not downplaying it because you made the post is like someone saying something racist and then arguing that it isn't racist because they said it, so they would know.

I understand your choice as your chances of being raped are all but nil, but to say it's "worse" is downplaying it, whether you think it is or not.

A person would know if they were being racist. If someone else read something into their comments that wasn't there, that would be unfortunate, but it wouldn't mean they had made a racist comment. (The best example of that I ever saw was that unfortunate Californian who used the word "niggardly" in a council meeting)

I never downplayed rape. You see my comments as doing so, but that, I think, is because you don't consider what I am actually asking. Or saying.

Again: To me, to spend time in jail for a rape I did not commit would be worse than being raped. You may think differently, but are you downplaying the consequences for a man of a false accusation, if it were never found to be false? I don't think so. I just think you think differently.

[Guest American Woman]

A person would know if they were being racist.

No, people don't always know when they are being racist; not by a long shot. Many are in denial.

If someone else read something into their comments that wasn't there, that would be unfortunate, but it wouldn't mean they had made a racist comment.

And if it was a racist comment, their insisting it wasn't wouldn't make it any less racist.

I never downplayed rape. You see my comments as doing so, but that, I think, is because you don't consider what I am actually asking. Or saying.

If you've read my comments at all, you'd see that what you are saying is far from the reality. How you can even say I don't consider what you are actually asking or saying is beyond me. And yes, you are downplaying rape. Again. To say being accused of it is actually worse than being raped is downplaying rape.

Again: To me, to spend time in jail for a rape I did not commit would be worse than being raped. You may think differently, but are you downplaying the consequences for a man of a false accusation, if it were never found to be false? I don't think so. I just think you think differently.

Since I never said one was "worse" than the other, how could I be downplaying being accused of rape?? Of course I"m not. Again. You are downplaying the consequences of being raped by saying that being falsely accused is "worse," and your denial doesn't change the reality. Edited February 24, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest]

I think you are wrong. A person cannot be accidentally racist. The racism is in the intent.

That said, you are twisting my words. Being accused of rape and suffering the consequences of that accusal is worse than being raped. To me. Not to you.

Much worse. To me, not to you.

[Guest American Woman]

I think you are wrong. A person cannot be accidentally racist. The racism is in the intent.

Wrong. Racism exists in the statement. If someone says (fill in the blank) are not as intelligent as their race/sex/whatever and therefore shouldn't have the same rights, and they truly believe it, their intent is not to be racist - but the statement is still racist. By the same token, if a person is rude but doesn't intend to be, that doesn't change the behavior. They are still rude.

That said, you are twisting my words. Being accused of rape and suffering the consequences of that accusal is worse than being raped. To me. Not to you.

Much worse. To me, not to you.

Yes, I get that it's worse to you. "Much" worse. That is most definitely downplaying rape; very much so - and that you don't recognize it doesn't change it one bit. It is what it is, so with that I am done.

Edited February 24, 2013 by American Woman

[Muddy]

I don`t believe that rape is no big deal. I don`t think anyone here does. But the question was Which Crime Is Worse ? A man looks at rape differently than a women. We are clumsy as men. If a daughter ,wife or Mom is raped we are full of emotions to see a loved one in such agony. We don`t know what to say or do to bring comfort .Although I have never been in the situation as a man, my first instinc as Husband ,Father or son would be to put my arms around my loved one. Probably the wrong thing to do but I have no other idea what to do.

But are the crimes comparable of rape or false accusations ? I posted my thoughts about the consequences of what could happen earlier,but maybe I did not explain myself well because nobody replyed. False accusations of rape or rape I think are equivelent crimes. Both can destroy a human being. Destroy marriages ,parenthood, careers and social standing with ones peers. Both could bring about suicide. Thats why I see both crimes equally repugnant.

[Canuckistani]

Rape has a spectrum from somebody pushing an ambivalent woman to have sex or the kind of thing Assange is accused of to what happened in India. And so do the consquences of being falsely accused fall on a spectrum from not much harm done to people being falsely executed for it. I don't think you can generalize here.

[Guest]

Wrong. Racism exists in the statement. If someone says (fill in the blank) are not as intelligent as their race/sex/whatever and therefore shouldn't have the same rights, and they truly believe it, their intent is not to be racist - but the statement is still racist. By the same token, if a person is rude but doesn't intend to be, that doesn't change the behavior. They are still rude.

Yes, I get that it's worse to you. "Much" worse. That is most definitely downplaying rape; very much so - and that you don't recognize it doesn't change it one bit. It is what it is, so with that I am done.

And that you don't recognize that I am not doesn't change anything either.

Regarding just your first statement then. I didn't say anything about truly believing it. A Klan member might truly believe what he believes, it doesn't stop him being racist. His intent is to discriminate between races, regardless of how justifiable he thinks his words are.

The person in the example I used was accused of racism with no intent whatsoever. He eventually quit over it. I believe. I'm going from memory here.

You need intent, even if the intent is tangential. Or benign

[Guest]

Rape has a spectrum from somebody pushing an ambivalent woman to have sex or the kind of thing Assange is accused of to what happened in India. And so do the consquences of being falsely accused fall on a spectrum from not much harm done to people being falsely executed for it. I don't think you can generalize here.

I agree. I wish I had been a lot more specific with my position in my OP.

[lovedCanadians]

Raping a child in my opinion is the worse.

[Muddy]

I get the feeling that American Women thinks because a man looks at both scenarios differently that he does not have empathy for a female rape victim. I have not seen that in male posters responses. A false accusation and conviction for a man of rape is also a life sentence as it can be for a women who is raped.

Both are terrible,physially and mentally life threatening. I don`t think American Women can see or even start to understand a mans point of view. My life is as valuable as a womens. Yet I am brought up as a Christian man to protect women and children,to the point of endangering my life. When a female member of a family is raped a Father ,brother or husband will feel inadequate and some how guilty they were not there to protect their loved one. Men are not all beasts American Women.

[Guest American Woman]

I get the feeling that American Women thinks because a man looks at both scenarios differently that he does not have empathy for a female rape victim.

Since I've never said one word regarding empathy, I have to conclude that your feelings are based on your not understanding that "downplaying" and "no empathy" are two completely different things. Furthermore, my comments about "downplaying" were not directed at "men," but those who said an accusation of rape is "worse/much worse" than rape. In fact, I said that I understand that bcsapper looks at it differently, that both are bad, but it's the claim that one is worse than the other that is downplaying rape.

I have not seen that in male posters responses.

Good for you. Now if you only had read my responses, I wouldn't have to waste my time repeating what I already said.

A false accusation and conviction for a man of rape is also a life sentence as it can be for a women who is raped.

And the repeating what I said starts here, as you are repeating what I have already acknowledged:

Such accusations have changed men's lives forever. The Duke LaCrosse team comes to mind. I really don't think the two can be compared. They're both terrible.

I do understand where you are coming from, though I don't agree with you regarding the "worse" part- but I do think purposely falsely accusing someone of rape is a terrible crime. It most definitely can ruin lives - and has.

Both are terrible,physially and mentally life threatening.

And again, my words:

They're both terrible.

-------------------------

I don`t think American Women can see or even start to understand a mans point of view. My life is as valuable as a womens. Yet I am brought up as a Christian man to protect women and children,to the point of endangering my life. When a female member of a family is raped a Father ,brother or husband will feel inadequate and some how guilty they were not there to protect their loved one. Men are not all beasts American Women.

And I don't think you even read my posts - or could even start to comprehend them. Clearly I've said that both are terrible and both ruin lives as I have not said that one is worse than the other, which is the only thing I am taking issue with - and it is downplaying rape to say the accusation is "much worse." I apparently have to agree - or I don't understand a man's point of view or value a man's life? Well, don't hold your breath, because that ain't happening.

Edited to fix errors in formatting

Edited February 24, 2013 by American Woman

[WIP]

For some reason you have been misrepresenting my OP, my other posts on here, and other posters' posts on here as:

" presenting rape as something of a minor inconvenience for women."

I don't know why you would do that.

Do you really think that a prison sentence, losing your family, job, friends, etc, is a minor inconvenience? Because if I was to apply the same logic to your posts that would be a reasonable conclusion.

You presented rape and rape accusation as equal in the OP, which was followed by comments saying accusation of rape was worse and others saying it was equal. Later in post#8 you say you would personally rather be raped than accused of rape, but "maybe a woman would have a different opinion"....how generous! And you restated that opinion in response to me which leads me to conclude that you feel the accusation is worse than the act of rape, and that's where I conclude that you consider rape something trivial and have never spoken to or listened to a rape victim. Later in post#18 you're saying you could have phrased the OP better.....which leaves what? The impression and attitude is still left out there of an equivalency between rape and those falsely accused of rape.

And, I didn't feel like carrying this further, which is why I didn't bother responding to your last post to me leading with your chin, where you discounted the sheer volume of rape incidents...especially those that go unreported vs. the few cases of false rape accusation. But, since this is a thread that may never die and live on like some zombie devouring all common sense, I added a long post with a lot of links to articles I had read in the last week...in case someone here actually would notice them. So, I just want to go back to the one regarding the fallout of allowing an atmosphere that trivializes rape....in this case it was the extreme example of bad manners - telling rape jokes, and the validation any rapists feel when they're around guys who they believe think like they do:

Because this is why I refuse to take rape jokes sitting down-

6% of college age men, slightly over 1 in 20, will admit to raping someone in anonymous surveys, as long as the word “rape” isn’t used in the description of the act.

6% of Penny Arcade’s target demographic will admit to actually being rapists when asked.

A lot of people accuse feminists of thinking that all men are

rapists. That’s not true. But do you know who think all men are

rapists?

Rapists do.

They really do. In psychological study, the profiling, the studies, it comes out again and again.

Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better. And more, these people who really are rapists are constantly reaffirmed in their belief about the rest of mankind being rapists like them by things like rape jokes, that dismiss and normalize the idea of rape.

If one in twenty guys is a real and true rapist, and you

have any amount of social activity with other guys like yourself,

really cool guy, then it is almost a statistical certainty that one

time hanging out with friends and their friends, playing Halo with a

bunch of guys online, in a WoW guild, or elsewhere, you were talking to a rapist. Not your fault. You can’t tell a rapist apart any better than anyone else can. It’s not like they announce themselves.

Now; this thread isn't about rape jokes, but presenting this argument of equivalency of false rape accusation and rape could easily be seen as giving aid and comfort to rapists.....for the obvious reason that any serial rapist is likely going to be accused at some point in his life. If the 1 in 20 stat is roughly accurate, that would mean that there are many readers....maybe a few active members....possibly even one or two on this thread who have committed rape during their lifetime, but pass it off as: 'she was a c*** tease and led me on' and 'I could tell she really wanted it anyway' or similar justifications that many rapists will use so that they don't have wear the label "rapist" around their necks.

Edited February 24, 2013 by WIP

[WIP]

Yes, it is. You may have made the post, but I'm a woman reading the post, and to say it's worse to be accused than to be raped, even after I've pointed out the consequences women suffer as a result of rape, is downplaying it. To say you would know that it's not downplaying it because you made the post is like someone saying something racist and then arguing that it isn't racist because they said it, so they would know.

I understand your choice as your chances of being raped are all but nil, but to say it's "worse" is downplaying it, whether you think it is or not.

This is the point where empathy is called for! Because I don't know what it feels like to live life as a woman, as a racial or ethnic minority, or as a gay or lesbian etc.. These are experiences that I can only gain some deeper appreciation for by listening to how those who live their lives as women, minorities or gays describe it.

And, it's not the same for every woman, minority or gay. It depends on so many physical and cultural circumstances that are different for each individual. When it comes to issues of public safety, safe workplace etc., I've noticed that women who are small in stature are more guarded and quick to regard a situation as unsafe, compared to a woman who is bigger, stronger...especially a few I know who have a good deal of martial arts training. And social class is part of the equation also; since women who do not have cars and have to ride public transit at night, consider the modern west to still be an unsafe place. I was a little surprised and disappointed while I was posting frequently on a forum that deals mostly with religion and life issues, that the upper middle class women (who were more likely to identify themselves as post-feminist, considering gender issues solved today) did not feel obstacles blocking their personal success and felt safe where they lived, had little or no appreciation for the experiences of women who had to live in more threatening circumstances. So, women aren't always supportive of other women, and can be just as prejudicial as men can against those whom they don't identify with.

Edited February 24, 2013 by WIP