Apartheid? in the West Bank and Gaza

[DogOnPorch]

My work here is done.

Now to find Gaza on a map, eh?

[GostHacked]

Now to find Gaza on a map, eh?

How do you troll a troll? Let's go Doggy try to keep up.

[DogOnPorch]

How do you troll a troll? Let's go Doggy try to keep up.

Correcting you when you post false information is hardly being a troll.

Likely scenario: GH posts usual uniformed info about settlers being in Gaza for the 6th or 7th time. When caught...makes it seem that is was all part of some big plan to draw DOP into the thread.

Edited January 28, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

Correcting you when you post false information is hardly being a troll.

Likely scenario: GH posts usual uniformed info about settlers being in Gaza for the 6th or 7th time. When caught...makes it seem that is was all part of some big plan to draw DOP into the thread.

Please tell me how you did not get drawn into it.

[jbg]

They were too close because they were living on the same land Israel wanted to occupy. it's like building your house near a busy highway and complaining about the noise levels then having the audacity to have the highway moved.

By that logic the U.S. formed itself "too close" and yet since 1814 we've found a way to avoid lobbing missiles and organizing terrorism against each other. As far as the way business is done in the area, even when Israel is not involved, see link.

[jbg]

Yes. Nice try, but by jbg's logic, Israel should expand until there are no Arab or Persian or Muslim states left, since Israel is building population centers in the occupied territories. Next it will be Jordan is just across the Jordan from our population centers so we have to start settling Jordan. Etc.

If Jordan did mount another attack indeed I'd expect that. Maybe that's why since 1967 Jordan, Egypt and even Syria have kept a lid on attacks emanating from their area. Gaza looks like it's "cruisin' for a bruinsin'" though.

If Israel withdraws to 67 borders and keeps getting attacked, I would have no problem with them putting military outposts in the West Bank until security is established. Under these conditions I would also be in favor of our govt providing any and all support. But what kind of country uses civilians as their security measure? Oh, I know, not a country but terrorists are always accused of hiding behind civilians.

My should Israel have to give a mulligan (i.e. a second tee-off) on an attempt to destroy them?

[DogOnPorch]

Please tell me how you did not get drawn into it.

Oh...so it was YOUR big plan to draw me into a thread I'm likely to post in anyways. I think that is the behavior of a troll.

[GostHacked]

Oh...so it was YOUR big plan to draw me into a thread I'm likely to post in anyways. I think that is the behavior of a troll.

Like you have an idea what a troll is.

[Guest Derek L]

Yes, it's apartheid pure and simple! All you have to do is look at the maps and you can see that Israel has made it effectively impossible for an independent Palestinian state to function. So, what do they do with all of the Palestinians? Remember that South Africa was almost 80% non-white, and they were still able to function as a state until international pressure on the U.S., England and Israel, forced them to drop their support of the Apartheid Government. As long as Israel has the U.S. in their hip pocket and afraid to criticize any of their policies, it won't matter how big the occupied population becomes.

That’s factually incorrect, what allowed the West to throw Zuid Afrika under the bus was the demise of both the Soviet Union and the spread of Communism in Africa……… Will Israel get the same treatment once stability supersedes radical Islam and Middle Eastern despots…….Who’s to say, but I doubt anyone of us will be alive to see it.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Derek L

[DogOnPorch]

Like you have an idea what a troll is.

I agree. I look to you.

[DogOnPorch]

That’s factually incorrect, what allowed the West to throw Zuid Afrika under the bus was the demise of both the Soviet Union and the spread of Communism in Africa……… Will Israel get the same treatment once stability supersedes radical Islam and Middle Eastern despots…….Who’s to say, but I doubt anyone of us will be alive to see it.

Some good footage from the crisis there.

[Bonam]

Next it will be Jordan is just across the Jordan from our population centers so we have to start settling Jordan. Etc.

[GostHacked]

I agree. I look to you.

I don't get it.

[Guest Derek L]

Some good footage from the crisis there.

Yup, complete with SADF & SAP troops armed with South African produced Israeli small arms……….What it doesn’t convey is that during Apartheid, the Afrikaner Government killed under 8000 blacks………Since the “Rainbow Government” took power in ‘94, nearly 70000 whites have been murdered……The smart ones like my wife‘s family buggered off in the early 90s…….

Turn around is fair play I suppose, and I wouldn’t be surprised if such actions played out in Israel if the circumstances were right….

Just keep your ears & eyes open for this fellow:

His name is Ronald Lamola and is up and coming leader within the ANC……….He’s determined to make a name for himself:

[DogOnPorch]

Oh my...he's going to be fun.

Yes...South Afrika has merely changed one apartheid for another.

[bud]

What it doesn’t convey is that during Apartheid, the Afrikaner Government killed under 8000 blacks………Since the “Rainbow Government” took power in ‘94, nearly 70000 whites have been murdered

are you trying to justify apartheid south africa?

oh and how about some links, citing your numbers of 8000 blacks and 70,000 white deaths?

[Guest Derek L]

are you trying to justify apartheid south africa?

oh and how about some links, citing your numbers of 8000 blacks and 70,000 white deaths?

What needs to be justified?

And the numbers:

http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media/1997/9705/s970527b.htm

http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/white-genocide-in-south-africa.html

[bud]

What needs to be justified?

you tell me. tell me i'm wrong and that you're happy that apartheid south africa was forced out.

And the numbers:

http://www.justice.g...05/s970527b.htm

http://www.thetrutha...uth-africa.html

first number makes sense, but second number is suspect and it's just thrown out there without any evidence. not to mention the incredibly shady link you've shared as your proof.

there are some people who are stupid enough to think that it's okay to expect that after decades of a systematic and brutal strangling of a group of people, things can suddenly change. it takes a long time to reverse what the brutal regime did in south africa. when you suddenly release hundreds of thousands of people from a prison that they did not belong in, the only expectations you can have is pent up anger and the slow healing of a broken group of people.

[DogOnPorch]

I'm not sure how many European South Afrikans have been murdered in total...but over 4,000 farmers & their families have been murdered*. Genocide Watch puts South Afrika at level 6 which is one stage away from actually eliminating the target population.

*raped, tortured and murdered.

[Guest Derek L]

you tell me. tell me i'm wrong and that you're happy that apartheid south africa was forced out.

Why would I be happy? One oppressive regime was replaced with another…………If the new owners wreck the place, so be it………A large portion of the educated Afrikaner, English and “coloured” (Apartheid term for other non white citizens, like Indians and Chinese etc) have left for the “West”……….If what you aspire to comes to pass in Israel, I’m sure the same sort of exodus would occur there also………..And such results would be a net gain for Western nations.

first number makes sense, but second number is suspect and it's just thrown out there without any evidence. not to mention the incredibly shady link you've shared as your proof.

there are some people who are stupid enough to think that it's okay to expect that after decades of a systematic and brutal strangling of a group of people, things can suddenly change. it takes a long time to reverse what the brutal regime did in south africa. when you suddenly release hundreds of thousands of people from a prison that they did not belong in, the only expectations you can have is pent up anger and the slow healing of a broken group of people.

And would you suggest South Africa has changed for the better? Higher unemployment, an AIDS pandemic, continued civil unrest, one of the highest murder rates in the world and the associated brain drain caused by the educated whites leaving.

[Guest Derek L]

I'm not sure how many European South Afrikans have been murdered in total...but over 4,000 farmers & their families have been murdered*. Genocide Watch puts South Afrika at level 6 which is one stage away from actually eliminating the target population.

*raped, tortured and murdered.

The place is a mess……….My wife’s few remaining relatives are in the process of immigrating to New Zealand……..

[TheNewTeddy]

I know comparisons to South Africa are a natural part of the discussion, but I'd encourage debaters to focus on Gaza and the West Bank.

[Guest Derek L]

I know comparisons to South Africa are a natural part of the discussion, but I'd encourage debaters to focus on Gaza and the West Bank.

But you started the comparison between the two? As such, better understanding the actual Apartheid and the results of it’s demise in a discussion about Israel and the Palestinians is rather apt…………..namely when you draw the initial comparison.....

[jbg]

And would you suggest South Africa has changed for the better? Higher unemployment, an AIDS pandemic, continued civil unrest, one of the highest murder rates in the world and the associated brain drain caused by the educated whites leaving.

In the tooth fairy world where everything is solved by a subsidy of some kind, that is a change for the best. The U.N. can pay for everything because sucker countries like the U.S. and Canada feed the dragon.

[Bonam]

South Africa is a mess, by many objective standards worse now than before. Certainly, that does not justify the system it had before. But the system it has today is also inexcusable and needs major reform, just as badly as the one preceding it, if not even more so. Not sure of the relevance that has to Israel, because the two situations are not comparable.

Now, as for Israel, there is no question that Arabs in the West Bank are not treated the same as Israeli citizens. The reasons and necessities for why this is so are obvious. The entire arrangement is temporary, and Israel has on many occasions under several different administrations willingly negotiated to cede the vast majority of the West Bank to a Palestinian state, which the Palestinians have repeatedly refused because Israel would not give in to impossible demands (demands which would doom Israel's future, such as letting millions of Arabs return to Israel). The situation is a temporary occupation, continuing until negotiations are at last successful, not an intended permanent state of affairs. The only reason it has lasted as long as it has is where any other occupied people would have jumped at the chance to get independence on 98% of the territory they demand, the Arabs would rather suffer and complain and reject any realistic proposal.

The whole "Israeli Apartheid" crowd is tragically misinformed, useful tools for Arab propaganda, nothing more.