"Anti-racist" is a codeword for anti-white

[GreatJob!]

Whose racism has the most power to deny jobs, voting rights, education etc.?

well... in our particular circumstances: institutional racism can and does deny whites with access to jobs, admissions to certain schools and universities, promotions and even access to various resources... Again, that is the essence of affirmative action and the end result. One races gain is the other's loss... that's what happens when you don't have equality.

as for voting rights that's still ok ... for now anyways...

[Michael Hardner]

well... in our particular circumstances: institutional racism can and does deny whites with access to jobs, admissions to certain schools and universities, promotions and even access to various resources...

Depending on what "our" circumstances means, the rare examples that have been listed here would not produce anything like the numbers that the opposite type of racism has produced in society. If you see a problem with affirmative action, I would ask you to submit an alternative. There are a few out there, and some of them seem quite good in comparison to AA.

[Spiderfish]

Depending on what "our" circumstances means, the rare examples that have been listed here would not produce anything like the numbers that the opposite type of racism has produced in society.

I suppose none of the numbers matters much if you are the one being denied access or admission while the person beside you is not because of the colour of their skin or their gender.

[GreatJob!]

I looked in on this thread when if first started, but never got around to adding a comment to yet another thread raising the phony issue of reverse racism again. What most of these arguments boil down to is someone who enjoys the privilege of being part of the majority group in a population...and a majority with overwhelming political and financial control of the economy, complaining about each and every example where they think they might lose something or have to bend a little, to address issues like racism.

* worth noting that checking back at the link in the OP, it still only has one signature....with 24,999 left to go, before the petition reaches President Obama's desk.....good luck with that!

Really? The only good Christmas movie to come out in at least the last 10 years, and you're complaining that Harold and Kumar is anti-white racism. Clearly someone can't take a joke!

Really....again? What about the White Saviour who comes in to save the day for the helpless and incompetent savages! It's Dances With Wolves, and the Indians are blue....aside from that, it's another patronizing story about how the natives need the help of that one good liberal white man to survive! Easy to see that racism cases can be made from other sides....depending on which way you are holding up your telescope.

the phony issue?

Preferential race based and "diversity based" treatment is literally inscribed in our charter... theres nothing phony about it...

Section 15-2 of the CCRF:

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

This is a clear zero sum game, with non-minority "whites" being the obvious losers in this scenario... very often again, simply because of the color of their skin. This is plain, bald systematic racism. And to go from there and say that whites enjoy "white priviledge"? I've never heard any satisfactory explanation as to what "white priviledge" is, its always explained away as some obscure, unfathomable ghost that "holds" minorities down.... "ALL minorities" mind you... as if being white was like being part of a secret fraternity with benefits...

I think that reverse discrimination, backed up by our government, and in some cases literally codified in our fundamental charter is a far more obvious and damaging threat to equality.

being white doesn't come with any sets of priviledges... or easy admissions to universities, or slam dunk advantages over similarly qualified candidates in job competition, or even an extra dollar per hour on a paycheck. It counts for zero. On the other hand, being a visible minority comes with an array of set aside advantages, that are enforced by virtually every rung of our government and industry. Quotas, raises, loans, special organizations, job promotion etc...

years ago, it was even so bad that a job positng for the federal gvt specifically and explicitly prevented white males from even APPLYING for a position.

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=8b38e8a9-f7de-460b-9bd7-723991e9d12e

its also the same in the US... every state is forced to hold diversity hiring job fares... where again (obviously), whites need not apply. http://www.citycareerfair.com/about.php

and btw... are you actually implying that avatar was a "white supremacy" tale in disguise? seriously?

lets get even more recent... have you seen Lincoln?! Its another fine example of the new hollywood narrative: everything in the movie revolves around the black experience, black soldiers are the focus, they are presented as heroes and martyrs, with hardly any flaws to mention, the southerners are of course, presented as bloated, greasy, bigots with hardly to IQ points to rub together. Lincoln is some sort of cosmopolitan pre-modern-age human rights enthusiast that reads like an oily Obama speech.

to put it differently can you recall of any popular film of the last 15 years, that could be interpreted as demeaning, or racist towards minorities? That presents them in a negative light? Casts them as the clear evil losers?

[Michael Hardner]

I suppose none of the numbers matters much if you are the one being denied access or admission while the person beside you is not because of the colour of their skin or their gender.

The one example I can think of, where somebody complained about being 'denied' entry to the RCMP for being white male, turned out to have mitigating factors - namely that almost 100% of applicants are white males. Creating a program to recruit and bring in qualified non-white-males has strategic advantages and the fact that your chances of entry are reduced marginally as a result of said program needs to be seen in context.

[Michael Hardner]

years ago, it was even so bad that a job positng for the federal gvt specifically and explicitly prevented white males from even APPLYING for a position.

http://www.canada.co...d7-723991e9d12e

What happened with that example ? It's been a few years.

lets get even more recent... have you seen Lincoln?!

What about Django Unchained ? It's a great liberal fantasy in which all the white people are murdered - some in cold blood - for just being white.

Are there any other examples other than movies and that job listing of the anti-discrimination, because it's really not that much.

[GreatJob!]

Depending on what "our" circumstances means, the rare examples that have been listed here would not produce anything like the numbers that the opposite type of racism has produced in society. If you see a problem with affirmative action, I would ask you to submit an alternative. There are a few out there, and some of them seem quite good in comparison to AA.

What do you mean? opposite type of racism?

we are talking about institutional racism. the results have always been bad at any time, anywhere, and no matter who practises it and for whose sake.

The solution? Gee! maybe ending intitutional racism? lol!

i.e: set up a society based on equality? a true meritocracy? where no one gets any "goodies" or "breaks" because of a skin tone hue, accent, real or imagined handicap?

the solution is pretty self evident and astonishingly simple. treat everyone as individual equals. Stop pretending as though every employer is a Ku Kluxer, and that every black employee needs petty government assistance. Stop patronizing minorities like its the special olympics...

equality now!

Edited December 30, 2012 by GreatJob!

[GreatJob!]

Are there any other examples other than movies and that job listing of the anti-discrimination, because it's really not that much.

um, our charter? lol

and you don't consider the most powerful agent of socialization (digital media) to have important ramifications for society? You don't think movies can influence people? That movies and MSM also act to guide public opinion?

really?

then what do you think would constitute a good "example" of racism and anti-white bias?

Edited December 30, 2012 by GreatJob!

[Spiderfish]

The one example I can think of, where somebody complained about being 'denied' entry to the RCMP for being white male, turned out to have mitigating factors - namely that almost 100% of applicants are white males. Creating a program to recruit and bring in qualified non-white-males has strategic advantages and the fact that your chances of entry are reduced marginally as a result of said program needs to be seen in context.

I can't disagree there are strategic advantages in recruiting individuals of different ethnic backgrounds, however deciding who gets the position based on ethnicity or gender is discrimination, plain and simple.

Perhaps if non-whites are not interested in applying for certain positions in which their participation would be beneficial, we should find out why that is, and focus on encouraging their application, yet still employ fairness in deciding who is accepted.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Spiderfish

[WIP]

the phony issue?

Preferential race based and "diversity based" treatment is literally inscribed in our charter... theres nothing phony about it...

its also the same in the US... every state is forced to hold diversity hiring job fares... where again (obviously), whites need not apply. http://www.citycaree...r.com/about.php

and btw... are you actually implying that avatar was a "white supremacy" tale in disguise? seriously?

I'll say that my personal situation is being in the finishing laps (hopefully) of my working life, and being able to afford to retire and having more time to do things rather than focusing on money. If I was young, and looking for a good job, I might resent quotas and affirmative action programs; but it should be noted that when government and business was all owned 100% by white anglos (I'm speaking of outside Quebec of course), nobody from outside groups had much chance to get hired and move up to management or supervisory positions.

And something like affirmative action will continue to be necessary in the future, because laws can't redress completely what comes from those with the power to hire and fire people. And it doesn't matter what constitutes a marginalized group whether they be racial, ethnic or religion....and even women also...since women may be equal or slightly larger segment of the total population, but still face job discrimination, especially when it comes to getting into job categories that are traditionally male, earning equal pay, and getting promotions, even in this day and age. So, the way I see most of the critics of affirmative action, are people from a group that has an advantage they may or not be aware of, looking with a microscope of every example where a visible minority may have gained, while ignoring all of the obvious examples where they are discriminated against.

I don't want to go into any detail, but I'll just say that at my own workplace, we experienced a situation a few years back, in how a manager - human resources in this case - can effectively discriminate against groups they don't like even with today's laws and rules, after she bragged in an email (sent to the wrong person, about having successfully kept South Asian applicants from getting hired. There were some complaints launched in the years leading up to the discovery of that email; but that email was a smoking gun that made all the difference, since without it, there was absolutely no evidence of any malfeasance, and a series of alibis had worked to carry out this manager's objectives. Just saying, we do not live in a meritocracy, regardless of the propaganda from the right! As long as there are people in positions of authority with bad intentions, these things will happen and there will need to be rules - regardless of how inefficient they are, to force some changes through. It has been mentioned a time or two....even by those who have moved up the supervisory ladder into management, that moving up the company ladder starts with making sure you join the right foursome at golf, and that should not be the yardstick for determining advancement in any workplace!

lets get even more recent... have you seen Lincoln?! Its another fine example of the new hollywood narrative: everything in the movie revolves around the black experience, black soldiers are the focus, they are presented as heroes and martyrs, with hardly any flaws to mention, the southerners are of course, presented as bloated, greasy, bigots with hardly to IQ points to rub together. Lincoln is some sort of cosmopolitan pre-modern-age human rights enthusiast that reads like an oily Obama speech.

to put it differently can you recall of any popular film of the last 15 years, that could be interpreted as demeaning, or racist towards minorities? That presents them in a negative light? Casts them as the clear evil losers?

On that last point, have you taken a look at how Arabs or South Asians are depicted in TV and movies since 9/11? Even some of the actors say they pretty much quit Hollywood when virtually all that was offered was playing a terrorist. And from what I have heard....and it doesn't surprise me....the movie Lincoln is no more historically accurate than the average Hollywood bio pic, so why should we be surprised if this one is bad history?

Edited December 30, 2012 by WIP

[Michael Hardner]

i.e: set up a society based on equality? a true meritocracy? where no one gets any "goodies" or "breaks" because of a skin tone hue, accent, real or imagined handicap?

Right - so undo Affirmative Action-type programs and replace them with nothing, right ? That's not very imaginative, nor do I think it would fly politically.

[Merlin]

Right - so undo Affirmative Action-type programs and replace them with nothing, right ? That's not very imaginative, nor do I think it would fly politically.

Why not hire people on merit alone? Are you implying that non whites aren't as smart as whites?

[Michael Hardner]

I can't disagree there are strategic advantages in recruiting individuals of different ethnic backgrounds, however deciding who gets the position based on ethnicity or gender is discrimination, plain and simple.

Right - but the result of having at least a somewhat mixed police force is a better result as long as everyone hired is qualified.

Perhaps if non-whites are not interested in applying for certain positions in which their participation would be beneficial, we should find out why that is, and focus on encouraging their application, yet still employ fairness in deciding who is accepted.

That's a possibility, though I wonder if that approach works on its own.

[Michael Hardner]

Why not hire people on merit alone? Are you implying that non whites aren't as smart as whites?

There's no gradient whereby the top 10,000 applicants can be graded 1 to 10,000. You have a sea of applicants with similar attributes is the reality here. You can select them at random and you'll have almost all white males as a result.

[Canuckistani]

I can't disagree there are strategic advantages in recruiting individuals of different ethnic backgrounds, however deciding who gets the position based on ethnicity or gender is discrimination, plain and simple.

It is, but it can make sense. Take the RCMP example - they certainly need people on the force to reflect all of Canada. I would suggest they not lower their standards (which by instances we've seen are pretty low), but if it comes down to equally qualified applicants, pick minorities, aboriginals or women every time. That would mean that since so many white males apply, not all will get in. But a large percentage of the hires are still white males. Just don't lower the standards to suit political correctness, they way they've done with firefighters, say. Or, more accurately, have the same standard for everybody, not one for white males and another for other groups.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Canuckistani

[Spiderfish]

Right - but the result of having at least a somewhat mixed police force is a better result as long as everyone hired is qualified.

I agree, I think qualification for the position should be the first line item in the selection process, regardless of race or gender.

That's a possibility, though I wonder if that approach works on its own.

The feminist movement got the job done in the 60's and 70's, creating likely the single biggest social change in our country's history. Maybe the affirmative action movement should take notes.

[Spiderfish]

Just don't lower the standards to suit political correctness, they way they've done with firefighters, say. Or, more accurately, have the same standard for everybody, not one for white males and another for other groups.

It serves no one's interest in accepting unqualified individuals into a position simply to fill a quota. It's unfair to everyone (not to mention dangerous in some instances), including the individual who is put into a position they are not qualified to hold. I've seen first-hand the problems this creates.

[GreatJob!]

Right - so undo Affirmative Action-type programs and replace them with nothing, right ? That's not very imaginative, nor do I think it would fly politically.

are you being sarcastic?

explain how...

the cost of maintaining these programs and the propaganda to animate them is immense btw. and its all utterly useless... worse than useless... its harmful on so many fronts.

[Michael Hardner]

Immense really ? How much ? One wonders why they persist.

[GreatJob!]

Immense really ? How much ? One wonders why they persist.

well, just Immigrant Settlement and Intergration costs linked in to affirmative action cost over 280 million a year... add to that Native Friendship centres, Citizenship and Immigration canada spends over 120 million a year in diversity job fairs aimed solely at visible minorities.

then there are the costs forwarded unto businesses (who can't hire the people they want because of quotas systems) and the profit loss derived from underqualified candidates that sometimes sqeak by... endless discrimination lawsuits (that are largely fraudulent) and the litigious nature of affirmative action...

it is a huge squandering of wealth that in return does harm to 1/ non-minorities 2/ businesses forced to deal with these policies 3/ the supposed benefactors of Positive discrimination (as they are often put into positions they cannot perform well at) ... looking at the states only 39% of black law students pass the BAR on the first attempt, compared to 87% for whites and 91% asians (http://www.amazon.com/Mismatch-Affirmative-Students-Universities-ebook/dp/B008RZRLHA)

a pretty shabby proposition...

[Michael Hardner]

well, just Immigrant Settlement and Intergration costs linked in to affirmative action cost over 280 million a year... add to that Native Friendship centres, Citizenship and Immigration canada spends over 120 million a year in diversity job fairs aimed solely at visible minorities.

The goalposts are moving. Immigrant Settlement is not affirmative action, nor is Native Friendship centre... whatever that is.

Do you have a source for that $120 million in diversity job fairs aimed solely at visible minorities ? Maybe we can start with that.

then there are the costs forwarded unto businesses (who can't hire the people they want because of quotas systems) and the profit loss derived from underqualified candidates that sometimes sqeak by... endless discrimination lawsuits (that are largely fraudulent) and the litigious nature of affirmative action...

You're piling a lot of stuff on here without sources. Can you summarize the quota systems that private businesses have to adhere to ? Can you summarize the discrimination lawsuits (in Canada please) that are fraudulent or not ?

it is a huge squandering of wealth that in return does harm to 1/ non-minorities 2/ businesses forced to deal with these policies 3/ the supposed benefactors of Positive discrimination (as they are often put into positions they cannot perform well at) ... looking at the states only 39% of black law students pass the BAR on the first attempt, compared to 87% for whites and 91% asians (http://www.amazon.co...k/dp/B008RZRLHA)

a pretty shabby proposition...

Pretty shabby is that the only link you provide is a link to an Amazon page selling a book. Look, I'm about to lump you into the same category as a long line of posters we've had here who submit complaints like yours without any basis whatsoever, then complain about the response. If you don't have anything to back it up, just say so and the rest of us will respectfully take your individual opinion at face value. Thanks for posting.

[Argus]

The one example I can think of, where somebody complained about being 'denied' entry to the RCMP for being white male, turned out to have mitigating factors - namely that almost 100% of applicants are white males. Creating a program to recruit and bring in qualified non-white-males has strategic advantages and the fact that your chances of entry are reduced marginally as a result of said program needs to be seen in context.

Define 'marginally'.

Competition to become a police officer is fierce. There are always far and away more applicants than openings. For cultural reasons, most applicants are indeed white males. Now I'm not going to deeply research this, but I found this from a couple of years back:

Under new hiring benchmarks set this month, senior Mounties say that new classes of recruits should comprise 30 per cent women, 20 per cent visible minorities and 10 per cent aboriginals,

That's 50% of openings set aside for other than white males. Since white males probably comprise over 90% of applicants, that is more than a 'margina' problem to them.

There's also this:

Some strides are being made in Canada. Earlier this year, Toronto Police said they graduated a class that was 33 per cent made up of visible minorities, 23 per cent female.

Again we see a high percentage of new officers being either women or minorities. Given the noted lack of interest on the part of women and visible minorities in policing as a career they must have made enormous efforts to get that many, and don't tell me they didn't accept many, many applicants who never would have had a chance were they white males because I won't believe it for a second.

[Michael Hardner]

Define 'marginally'.

Competition to become a police officer is fierce. There are always far and away more applicants than openings. For cultural reasons, most applicants are indeed white males. Now I'm not going to deeply research this, but I found this from a couple of years back:

Under new hiring benchmarks set this month, senior Mounties say that new classes of recruits should comprise 30 per cent women, 20 per cent visible minorities and 10 per cent aboriginals,

That's 50% of openings set aside for other than white males. Since white males probably comprise over 90% of applicants, that is more than a 'margina' problem to them.

That's new data - please pass on the particulars so that we can update the numbers.

[Argus]

Right - but the result of having at least a somewhat mixed police force is a better result as long as everyone hired is qualified.

Has that 'better result' ever been measured or quantified? And what constitutes 'qualified' when you change your criteria based on race?

“Just to get an interview, white males needed a score of 115 on the police aptitude test, women needed a 96 and visible minority candidates an 86. Such quotas are said to permeate promotions too.”

http://www.immigrationwatchcanada.org/2005/07/06/rcmp-pursuit-of-equity-employment-for-visible-minorities-policies-has-become-a-truly-public-national-embarrassment/

[Michael Hardner]

Has that 'better result' ever been measured or quantified? And what constitutes 'qualified' when you change your criteria based on race?

Not that I know of. It stands to reason that it's better to have a racially mixed force to police, say, a community of all black people. Can you see that ? If not, I will look up some studies on this topic but it seems pretty obvious to me.

Qualifications are set apart from race - they include fitness, and educational background.