Conservative government approves of affirmative action

[Guest Derek L]

What do you mean by cultural reasons?

Though not addressed to me, I’ll take a stab at it:

I would assume that many traditional Asian cultures place family as a higher personal priority, as such, a career in the RCMP could be less appealing due to the likely probability that they will move around often, work long and differing hours and be susceptible to a greater likelihood of having their marriage end in divorce…………..I won’t be so bold as to speak for women, other then to say several I know on a personal level, have had a indirect or direct exposure to the “life” growing up and to them, the merits outweighed the detractors……….

Perhaps a more apt question would be to ask why male WASPs (or anyone for that mater) are attracted to the “lifestyle”, then work backwards.

[TwoDucks]

I just want to know if I'm understanding this right. So tell me if I'm wrong.

Your argument is that the amount of trust an identifiable group has in the police has some association (not an absolute correlation, but some association) to the number of people from that identifiable group on the police force. Is that right?

We should be able to measure that by looking at trust scores and comparing them to the proportion of police from that group that respond to calls involving them.

I'm not sure if this has been done, but it would certainly be measurable in some way.

I think you'd be hard pressed to actually measure if it's the case or not. I think I would frame it in the sense that an all white police force fosters distrust, more than an inclusive police force being more trustworthy in a multiracial society.

[cybercoma]

I think you'd be hard pressed to actually measure if it's the case or not. I think I would frame it in the sense that an all white police force fosters distrust, more than an inclusive police force being more trustworthy in a multiracial society.

EIther way. So more police officers from that particular group lowers the amount of distrust that group has.

[cybercoma]

What I'm getting is that there's some sort of cultural barrier to women and minorities getting into the RCMP, whether it be that they just don't apply to begin with or they don't get in when they do apply.

Is that the argument being made here?

[blueblood]

What I'm getting is that there's some sort of cultural barrier to women and minorities getting into the RCMP, whether it be that they just don't apply to begin with or they don't get in when they do apply.

Is that the argument being made here?

Maybe it's simply they don't want to apply. Maybe it's the nature of the job that turns some people off. I hear the ads on the radio, basically it's an open invitation to any one, which is what it should be. I don't think standards should be dropped to meet quotas, IMO that is dangerous.

Argus said it best, it's the same reason why more males aren't nurses or early grade teachers. Same hing goes for women farmers, women equipment operators, loggers, etc. I'm sure they can do the job just as well, it's does that kind of job appeal to them in the first place.

[cybercoma]

But the question I'm asking is why don't they want to apply? The jobs are open to anyone. What is keeping them from wanting to apply?

[blueblood]

But the question I'm asking is why don't they want to apply? The jobs are open to anyone. What is keeping them from wanting to apply?

I don't know, you'd have to ask some females...

[TimG]

Your argument is that the amount of trust an identifiable group has in the police has some association (not an absolute correlation, but some association) to the number of people from that identifiable group on the police force. Is that right?

Yes. If the police are perceived as 'outsiders' they will not be trusted as much. But it is one factor among many - a multi-racial police force could still be a bunch of thugs. Edited November 24, 2012 by TimG

[Guest Derek L]

But the question I'm asking is why don't they want to apply? The jobs are open to anyone. What is keeping them from wanting to apply?

The lifestyle of the career............Or better put, and I’ll lump the RCMP in with the Armed Forces as opposed to a municipal police force, the sociology associated with a military organization, and the in the case of the RCMP, a quasi paramilitary national police force.

[cybercoma]

What do you mean by the "lifestyle of the career"? What about the lifestyle dissuades them and why?

[TimG]

What do you mean by the "lifestyle of the career"? What about the lifestyle dissuades them and why?

Would you want to be a dentist? Why or why not?

[cybercoma]

Would you want to be a dentist? Why or why not?

We're talking about groups. Derek L says women as a group are not choosing these careers because of the lifestyle. I'm wondering what he means by that. What is it about the lifestyle.

[TimG]

What is it about the lifestyle.

It should be obvious. The police are a quasi-military organization where part of the job includes the use of physical force to subdue or kill. This is not going to be an attractive career choice for many women who are physically smaller and weaker than men. Edited November 24, 2012 by TimG

[Guest]

It should be obvious. The police are a quasi-military organization where part of the job includes the use of physical force to subdue or kill. This is not going to be an attractive career choice for many women who are physically smaller and weaker than men.

And may not like killing quite so much.

[cybercoma]

So it's not culture or lifestyle, but the physical practicalities of the job then? You said you were for affirmative action in this area. How do you reconcile that with your claim that there are physical limitations for women who do the job?

[Guest Derek L]

What do you mean by the "lifestyle of the career"? What about the lifestyle dissuades them and why?

I highlighted a few things in an earlier post:

It’s exactly the same with the Armed Forces, with perhaps one step further being White Anglo males………..As to why, I don’t know, I’d assume the “life” has many detractors for most…….Lousy pay, away from home/family/friends often, for the most when you are home it’s a small rural town (and postings to other rural towns) which will make it difficult for a spouse to have a worthwhile career and the always present possibility of not coming home from work one day………. And you can rest assured, since the early 90s DND has made a concentrated effort to appeal to minorities and women, but at the end of the day, the career is what it is.

[Guest Derek L]

So it's not culture or lifestyle, but the physical practicalities of the job then? You said you were for affirmative action in this area. How do you reconcile that with your claim that there are physical limitations for women who do the job?

I would say the physical aspects to a degree, but more so the mental practicalities of such careers………..With the RCMP and the Armed Forces combined, we’re talking about 130k Canadians currently serving out of what, 35 million people?……….Clearly this, like many others, is a sociological grouping of likeminded individuals…………

[blueblood]

We're talking about groups. Derek L says women as a group are not choosing these careers because of the lifestyle. I'm wondering what he means by that. What is it about the lifestyle.

Maybe the lifestyle doesn't appeal to them. Heck the lifestyle of farmers doesnt appeal to a lot of people. Same with the various people not wanting to be nurses, teachers, loggers, fishermen, entrepreneurs, etc.

[TimG]

So it's not culture or lifestyle, but the physical practicalities of the job then? You said you were for affirmative action in this area. How do you reconcile that with your claim that there are physical limitations for women who do the job?

There are two questions hear that need to dealt with separately:

1) Why do women choose to not pursue a career in law enforcement;

2) What the police department should do to increase the number of women;

1) is a choice made by women and has nothing to do with the police department. If women believe that the job requires that they physically subdue large men then most women will make other choices. This is a fact of life that cannot change.

The police department needs to understand the reasons why women do not join _and_ accept that they will never achieve equality since the physical component of the job is not going to go away. What the police department needs to do is eliminate any unnecessary barriers (i.e. the macho culture of the organization) while providing women with extra assistance (perhaps a separate early training school only for women that prepares women for the regular school).

Edited November 24, 2012 by TimG

[Guest Derek L]

There are two questions hear that need to dealt with separately:

1) Why do women choose to not pursue a career in law enforcement;

2) What the police department should do to increase the number of women;

1) is a choice made by women and has nothing to do with the police department. If women believe that the job requires that they physically subdue large men then most women will make other choices. This is a fact of life that cannot change.

The police department needs to understand the reasons why women do not join _and_ accept that they will never achieve equality since the physical component of the job is not going to go away. What the police department needs to do is eliminate any unnecessary barriers (i.e. the macho culture of the organization) while providing women with extra assistance (perhaps a separate early training school only for women that prepares women for the regular school).

One idea for women or men of a smaller stature: Partner them with dogs, outside of the regular K-9 detachment and write an exception in laws governing personnel liability with the usage of dogs…….

[cybercoma]

I highlighted a few things in an earlier post:

Yeah. I saw that, but why would those things affect women differently? Surely men experience the same "lousy pay, time away from family/friends, [etc]..." Edited November 24, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

I would say the physical aspects to a degree, but more so the mental practicalities of such careers………..With the RCMP and the Armed Forces combined, we’re talking about 130k Canadians currently serving out of what, 35 million people?……….Clearly this, like many others, is a sociological grouping of likeminded individuals…………

So women are mentally incapable of handling the job? I'm not sure I get what you're saying.

[cybercoma]

Maybe the lifestyle doesn't appeal to them. Heck the lifestyle of farmers doesnt appeal to a lot of people. Same with the various people not wanting to be nurses, teachers, loggers, fishermen, entrepreneurs, etc.

Maybe it doesn't, but why women moreso than men?

[cybercoma]

1) is a choice made by women and has nothing to do with the police department. If women believe that the job requires that they physically subdue large men then most women will make other choices. This is a fact of life that cannot change.

So you think despite having the tools for the job (ie, being in a position of authority, having weapons [firearm, baton, pepper spray, taser], and usually having backup) women believe they're too weak to subdue large men, so they don't apply? I mean, there are some very successful female officers not only in the RCMP, but also in local police forces and in the military. So does the limitation actually exist in reality?

Edited November 24, 2012 by cybercoma

[Guest Derek L]

Yeah. I saw that, but why would those things affect women differently? Surely men experience the same "lousy pay, time away from family/friends, [etc]..."

And a great many men don’t join the Forces/RCMP………As I said, such a question should be reversed and asked why WASPs do join.