Canadians needs a bilingual education

[CANADIEN]

While I am at it, Stoker, thanks for your comment that we should be grateful we were not deported. Makes it clear that we are only second-class Canadians, whose rights and identity exist only as long as you decide they do.

[theloniusfleabag]

"No one can deny that Quebec is, culturally and socialogically, a distinct society. So is Newfoundland".

Eugene Forsey, from "A Life On The Fringe:The Memoirs Of Eugene Forsey (1990)

Should language and culture be 'mandated by law', or allowed to live or die by it's own merit? I'd be willing to bet that Chinese (be it mandarin or cantonese) is now spoken by more of the Canadian population than French.

Is the notion of keeping cultural heritage alive up to the individual (or the culture) or the Gov't?

Markets should decide what language goes on a sign, not legislation.

[CANADIEN]

Western separation of the respect of the rights of all Canadians?

Actually Stoker, I'd go only as far as you separating, but I won't be picky.

Let's say I can picture the scene one day at the UN, the Secretary-General welcoming ambassadors of new member countries and asking them why they became independent.

Tibetan Ambassador: For decades, our nation and its people were victim of Chinese aggression (Secretary General nodding in agreement).

Quebec ambassador: Nous sommes un peuple opprimé (the Secretary General thinking "yeah right").

Greater Alberta ambassador: Uh, we had French schools.

[CANADIEN]

thelonius,

I can take care of my culture myself. The defense of the rights of citizens (including linguistic rights) is one of government's obligations.

[Stoker]

And here's another fact to you. I have never said that Western Canada should be bilingual. What I have said, and that you cannot disprove, is that it is and should be the right of every Canadian to choose if they will obtain education and government services in the language they personnally choose, either English or French.

So if we don't have to be bilingual, why are you opposed the Western Provinces not having to pay for bilingual programs?

And yet another fact. I am not fooled by your "I'm not saying that the right does not exist, just that it shouldn't exist argument". By saying it should not exist, you are denying it. Plain and simple

You seem to have a hard time grasping this point......trust me, there is no metaphysical, hidden agenda. If I'm in favour of getting rid of something, how can the before mentioned "something" not exist?

While I am at it, Stoker, thanks for your comment that we should be grateful we were not deported. Makes it clear that we are only second-class Canadians, whose rights and identity exist only as long as you decide they do.

I'm truely sorry if you have such a low self-estem surrounding your culture that you feel you are a second class Canadian..........Perhaps, if your culture was left to fend for itself, and succeeded, you in turn would feel better about yourself.

I feel empathy for the French Canadians situation, for if my culture lived and died on the whim of another culture, I too would feel lousy.

Should language and culture be 'mandated by law', or allowed to live or die by it's own merit? I'd be willing to bet that Chinese (be it mandarin or cantonese) is now spoken by more of the Canadian population than French.

Is the notion of keeping cultural heritage alive up to the individual (or the culture) or the Gov't?

Markets should decide what language goes on a sign, not legislation.

Very Good point fleabag......kinda of like Darwin meets laissez-faire

[Stoker]

I can take care of my culture myself.

Good, now if your fellow French Canadians felt the same way, we would have not a problem.

The defense of the rights of citizens (including linguistic rights) is one of government's obligations.

And the Government is there to serve the citizen right? What if the citizens want the laws changed?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear CANADIEN,

The defense of the rights of citizens (including linguistic rights) is one of government's obligations.

I fully support anyone's rights to put whatever language they wish upon their own business sign. I disagree with the 'mandatory exclusion' of others, though.

In Calgary, there are many businesses with frontage signs that I cannot interpret. From Sanskrit to Chinese to Cyrillic. I commend them, for they have decided that they do not care if such a policy deters my patronage. (It doesn't, by the way). There is no "english also' law. As it should be.

[seabee]

French Canadians owe Canadians of British heritage for allowing you to keep your culture,

By what right do Canadians of British heritage allow others anything, if not by the principel that "Might makes right"?

Canadians of British heritage are of a supremacist culture, not very far from the Aryan supremacist ideology.

Should Anglo-canadians in Québec consider themselves lucky that they are "allowed" their language?

[CANADIEN]

Stoker,

As I said before, I don't care what languages you speak or don't speak. So don't try to pass your denial of the linguistic rights of Canadians as being about "not becoming bilingual". It will not impress me anymore than anything you've said so far.

And don't worry about me. I have no inferiority complex whatsover about my language or my culture. I was merely reflecting what you obviously want French-speaking Canadians to be: second-class citizens, denied their right to be educated and receive government services in their language unless the government of a given province decides to throw them that bone.

And here goes your empathy.

[CANADIEN]

thelonius,

You will have noticed that I have not much touched the issue of sign language laws. I am no proponent of them, even though it is not been proven to my satisfaction that a "language also" law (as opposed to a "language only" law or a "language mostly" law) violates individual rights.

I have enough just disproving the fallacies put forward by those who deny the rights of Canadians to choose the language (English or French) or their education or in which they access government services.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear CANADIEN,

(And seabee) Don't listen to the bunk about 'Francophones owe a debt to the British anglos' for not subjugating the loser of a war. If Quebec pride is as strong as it seems, it will stand on it's own merit.

Banks, gov't services, and some private sector business are all trying to accomodate several cultures and languages. Many ATMs in Calgary now have Chinese characters as well as French and English. Others have tellers or clerks that are multi-lingual. It is not through any 'debt' or spite that this is done, it is merely keeping up with the times.

[CANADIEN]

What if the citizen want the law changed?

How a law can be changed finds its legal limit in constitutional laws and its moral limit in the rights of individual citizens.

Yet four other facts for you. First, the equal status of French and English is part of our Constitution. Second, language of education rights are also included (although in an imperfect way) in the Constitution. Third, constitutional amendments on linguistic issues warrants UNANIMITY of the provincial and federal governments.

And forth, since those linguistic rights belong to each individual Canadian, no one has a moral right to take them away. Not you, not the Quebec government, nobody.

[CANADIEN]

I listen to the bunk, thelonius.

As a Franco-Ontarian, it provides me with a good chuckle.

[playfullfellow]

I have been to Quebec back in the 70's. It wasn't a really joyfull time to say the least. We were an immigrant family with only 1 person out of 4 who could speak English and we did not speak French at all. Got treated like crap and could not receive help almost anywhere we went, people looked down upon us and made rude (I assume) comments when we asked for help. We said enough of that and moved west, to Alberta. Even though we could not speak English or French, we were treated very well. People were helpful and made us feel welcome. I do not know if times have changed things in Quebec but I lost a lot of respect becasue we were treated as if we lower than a snakes belly there. Quebec asks for respect from teh ROC but gives none in return and in general feel themselves superior to others. I am not the only person with such experiences, I know quite a few people who say the same. So, you ask us to respect your language but in return you show no repsect for ours. For this whole bloody thing to work, there has to be give and take on both sides of the equation, not just one way. Maybe this is all a misconception but I get the same opinion from a lot of people. I have no problem with Quebec or Quebec being french, that is a part of Canada and our culture as a whole. What I do have a problem with is that Quebec wants this to be a one way street. If Quebec would actually show a willingness to be a part of Canada and work towards making Canada a better country, then we could make headway.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear CANADIEN,

I am no proponent of them, even though it is not been proven to my satisfaction that a "language also" law (as opposed to a "language only" law or a "language mostly" law) violates individual rights.

OK, fair enough. Also, please note that I wrote my last post before reading your last post.

Language only laws, racial(read:minority) hiring quotas, etc are inherently exclusive as well as inclusive, and therefore are 'misguided good intent' and must be abolished.

[Stoker]

By what right do Canadians of British heritage allow others anything, if not by the principel that "Might makes right"?

Canadians of British heritage are of a supremacist culture, not very far from the Aryan supremacist ideology.

Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves I guess.........but back to the mater at hand.

Should Anglo-canadians in Québec consider themselves lucky that they are "allowed" their language?

If you go any look back at the different European empires in the mid-1700s, I say very much so that French Canadians are indentured to the British Crown/government for it fairness.

As I said before, I don't care what languages you speak or don't speak. So don't try to pass your denial of the linguistic rights of Canadians as being about "not becoming bilingual". It will not impress me anymore than anything you've said so far.

What denial? Are you perhaps losing something in translation?

And don't worry about me. I have no inferiority complex whatsover about my language or my culture. I was merely reflecting what you obviously want French-speaking Canadians to be: second-class citizens, denied their right to be educated and receive government services in their language unless the government of a given province decides to throw them that bone.

How would the Province be given the people a "bone"? I'd see it as the Provincial government doing it's democratic duty towards the majority's will.

First, the equal status of French and English is part of our Constitution.

Change it.

Second, language of education rights are also included (although in an imperfect way) in the Constitution.

Change it.

Third, constitutional amendments on linguistic issues warrants UNANIMITY of the provincial and federal governments.

Change it, or face further Western alienation, which in turn will lead to Western seperation. Pick your poison

I guess........either way, Quebec's free ride won't last forever.

And forth, since those linguistic rights belong to each individual Canadian, no one has a moral right to take them away. Not you, not the Quebec government, nobody.

See above.

I listen to the bunk, thelonius.

As a Franco-Ontarian, it provides me with a good chuckle.

I'm glad that an issue deemed important by many a Westerner provides a chuckle for you.........just keep chuckling, in the end, be it Quebec seperates, we seperate or both, the Western "carrot" that dangles on the pole held by Ottawa for Quebec won't last forever.

[caesar]

Great post playfulfellow. That is the brunt of the problem; we in western Canada are fed up to the teeth paying out tax money for bilingualism when Quebec and its language laws and separation threats does not show any respect for the ROC. We are spending tax dollars that could be put to better use where it will be appreciated.

[CANADIEN]

Stoker,

How can I avoid chuckling when someone denies the rights of Canadians then wants to be praised for fairness?

What does not make me chuckle though is your sad misunderstanding of democracy. Democracy, you see (or probably can't) does not truely exist unless individual rights are protected. Otherwise, it becomes nothing more than a dictoatorship of the majority.

To argue otherwise is to argue (for example) that democracy would have been to let the US South keep segragation. Or that it was the democratic right of some Swiss cantons in the early 1990's to prevent women from voting. Or that Quebec is entirely justified in denying the linguistic rights of its citizens as long as its population wants it.

[CANADIEN]

Changing parts of the Constitution that recognize the equal status in law of French and English, Stoker? NO

Abolishing the parts of the Constitution that (imperfectly) recognize the linguistic rights of Canadians? NO

Letting bigots dictate to others in what Canadian language they will be educated and receive government services? NO, NO AND NO

There are some in Quebec who would measure their attachment to Canada to the degree of lattitude they can have in trampling on individual rights. To those I say, "Si vous n'êtes pas contents, la porte est là et bon débarras".

And I'll say the same to you. If the population of the Western provinces would rather cut its ties with one of the greatest countries in the World than to respect the rights of Canadians, here's the door and good riddance.

Oh sure, there would be economic hardship (on both sides, don't fool yourself), but I wonder how seriously many people around the World would take a new "nation" who proclaimed as it's reason to exist "we had French schools".

[Argus]

However, the French in Quebec did swear allegiance, and in return they were guaranteed the rights to their own schools and churches, operating in their own language and religion. If the English had not done that there would be precious few French speakers around today.

All 60,000 swore allegiance? That is nonsense. The Quebec Act was written under very different circumstances than you imply.

The fact was that the British and French had been at war, on and off, just about forever. It was encumbent on the British to do something to secure the loyalty of the French in Canada after France lost and ceded the territory. Now I'm not saying they were especially thoughtful and kind, or that they didn't have a wary eye cocked on the Americans as inspiration. But if they'd wanted to crush Quebec they certainly could have done so. That is all I said.

In addition, your reading of Acadian history is selective and biased.

The pertinent point is France ceded Acadia to the UK. The people there were to be British citizens and swear allegience. They refused. So they were expelled. It was their own decision.

More pointedly, your repeated suggestion (in this post as elsewhere) that the French language survived in North America because of the kindness of the British is wrong.  It survived because French-speakers had very large families.

Everyone had large families, no one larger than the Irish. But they're still speaking English today

Argus, it seems that you don't like French-speaking people, and Quebec in particular.  Many people have such emotional biases.  It's not a big deal.

I don't like France, never have. I don't like their international behaviour, their arrogance, their selfishness and their snide attitude. And Quebecers are basically the same people. Their behaviour - and notice, I am not making an emotional judgement but one based on observation - has been entirely selfish and arrogant over the course of my lifetime, as well as being bigoted and racist to a degree no other province would stomach. So yes, I have had it with them. Good bye. Bon Voyage. The sooner the better.

[Argus]

Stoker,

Keep using economic excuses to deny the right of each and every Canadian to choose to receive their education either in French and English as they choose. It won't change the fact that right should and do exist.

Except, of course, in the single province where Francophones rule. There you have no right to be educated in your language of choice.

[Argus]

Argus,

You may think that you are the master of the manor and we, Francos, are the lackeys.

No, if you were lackeys you would actually be doing work. No, you're more like the welfare bums of Confederation, always taking, always whining for more, always snivelling about how unfair life is to you, never showing the slightest gratitude or even acknowledgement for the untold billions shovelled into your province every year to keep you from bankruptcy, always sneering at others, pretending you're superior in some odd unseen way you can never quite seem to demonstrate.

[Argus]

Argus,

Should I be grateful to you for the survival of the French language in Canada? Sure, as long as you also accept my thanks for how French survived in provinces other than Quebec despite efforts to suppress it.

Don't be grateful to me. If it was my decision I would have closed all the French schools a hundred and fifty years ago. As for "efforts" to supress French, those are a figment of your paranoid imagination.

[Argus]

And here's another fact to you. I have never said that Western Canada should be bilingual. What I have said, and that you cannot disprove, is that it is and should be the right of every Canadian to choose if they will obtain education and government services in the language they personnally choose, either English or French.

Except, of course, in Quebec.

[Argus]

Great post playfulfellow. That is the brunt of the problem; we in western Canada are fed up to the teeth paying out tax money for bilingualism when Quebec and its language laws and separation threats does not show any respect for the ROC. We are spending tax dollars that could be put to better use where it will be appreciated.

Personally, I love the fact that there is a government program specifically designed to bring French speaking immigrants into Francophone communities outside Quebec in order to bolster their numbers so that they will then be able to demand bilingual services. The cost? Who knows.

I like to imagine the howls of outrage, the riots which would take place in Quebec if the federal government ever tried to impliment the same kind of program there and bring in Anglophone immigrants to bolster the numbers in English communities.