guyser Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 We've been over this before, including the anecdote wars regarding ER services. See CIHI - they have the stats. We have but some trot out 'everywhere else is better' without doing some critical thinking. Quote
Fletch 27 Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 Yes, and Im aware healthcare is an issue in BC Alta Sask Man Qu NB PEI NS and Nfld not to mention Yu NWT and Nunavut. Ont ario is 5 times the size of France, density of Ontario is 13.4 vs 118. Apples to apples is comparing countries, not one country to anothers region. Ok, continue to point out the geographies... Why not bring up the language thing.. Maybe they are ranked number 1 by the WHO simply because they speak french.. to MY point and eliminating inefficiencies... Tier the system. THAT will fix the crappy Ontario health system.. Its CLEAR that a tiered system works and works GREAT! Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 Its CLEAR that a tiered system works and works GREAT! I think tiered systems would face the same challenges that we have today as long as the consumers blindly accepted whatever was given to them. Canadian consumers seem to have a defeatist attitude when it comes to such things - we accept getting kicked around by Telcos, Retailers... just an observation here... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
wyly Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) I go to the emergency room with a problem and the waiting time to see a doctor is 4 hrs. minimum. Lie on a hard gurney with a bad back for 4 + hours. The ambulance and attendants can't leave either because you're not accepted by the hospital for an hour or more after arrival. Several ambulances are tied up all the time er triage determines how soon you need attention, a 4 hour wait you were obviously in no danger ...two tier medicine won't do anything to change that, there are a fixed amount of MDs have two tiers is not going to increase that number, the number of mds is determined by medical school enrollment......when I went through a potential life threatening incident my admittance took less than 2 minutes in a packed ER, I was stripped down and in a bed hooked up to various monitors in no more than 5 minutes, that's the result of triage...emt's don't leave their charges because they are responsible for their care until relieved, again a shortage of nures, md's and/or hospital bed's, nothing that will be fixed with two tier medicine...until government puts more cash into education we will always have a shortage of medical staff... If you call for an ambulance both fire and ambulance show up.that depends on the person calling and the situation they relate to the call center...irony here is now you're complaining about too much attentionIf you're a pro athlete you get preferential treatment.pro athletes and high performance amateur athletes have very short careers those careers are dependent on quick attention, you and I have no such time issues...Anyone with funds can get immediate care in the USA.nad those without get bugger all, even where private care is available in canada there is an absence of demand, even the wealthy who could pay prefer universal healthcare...We need to wake up!no, you need to educate yourself in regards to healthcare... Edited October 29, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 Oh, Guyser guyser, I dont need to, The WHO (World health Organization) will! "Like the UK, France a two-tier healthcare system, with a state-run equivalent of the NHS - Couverture Maladie Universelle (CMU) - and the private sector. In 2000, the World Health Organisation said it ran the best national healthcare system" Its rather simple but goes agains every principle of the left. It allows those who do not have the means to obtain the BEST possible medical treatement via a public pool (As we do now in Canada). For those who would rather choose thier own medical facility for any reason (affiliation, faith, ease-of-use, etc) they can pay for it. Now follow along here... When they (30-40 percent) choose thier OWN funded system (outta the wallet) they DEAPRT that tax-payer funded system opening up beds and creating efficiencies in all manners from paper to warm-body resources. If hat didnt assist you, simply go to the WHO web-site. a 2 Tiered system WORKS and works BETTER than all others. Dat, be da facts.. the facts be you have no clue....opening more beds does f**k all if you don't have md's and nurses, technicians...two tier medicine does not, can not, produce medical staff... France has 30% more MDs than canada per 1000... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 ultimately the real measure of healthcare is lifespan, when compared to the other major countries we are in the top 5-6, and just ahead of france... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Fletch 27 Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 the facts be you have no clue....opening more beds does f**k all if you don't have md's and nurses, technicians...two tier medicine does not, can not, produce medical staff... France has 30% more MDs than canada per 1000... Wyly, Wyly, Wyly..... Firstly, we have more than enough medical staff.. What we ARE lacking is efficient and QULAITY medical staff... The "Unionizing" of these resources has created a very poor performing Provincially run medical model. A Tiered system would alow another path for those who WANT an option.. It would pull resources OFF of the provincially run model. Its all about efficiency..... something the current system knows nothing about. There is NO accountability by staff and the implementer... A Tiered/private system running along side the current provincial model is a "Win Win" for all. Quote
wyly Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) wait times are dependent on medical staff available, france has far more MDs per capita( 3.7 to our 2.2 per K)... quality? our MD's are second to none... here is some veeeery simple math for you to digest.....take 2 Md's working in UHC serving 1000 people, now divide that into two systems, 1 md in each system serving the same 1000 people...has this improved the patient MD ratio? no...have you improved the situation ? no...in fact you'll make it worse because the overwhelming majority of people will stay in the UHC system increasing wait times, decreasing healthcare results...no amount of rightwing political bullshitte is going to hide the fact we have a MD shortage... two tier healthcare does not produce MD's and Nurses... Edited October 29, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Fletch 27 Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 wait times are dependent on medical staff available, france has 30% more MD's than we do... quality? our MD's are second to none... here is some veeeery simple math for you to digest.....take 2 Md's working in UHC serving 1000 people, now divide that into two systems, 1 md in each system serving the same 1000 people...has this improved the patient MD ratio? no...have you improved the situation ? no...in fact you'll make it worse because the overwhelming majority of people will stay in the UHC system increasing wait times, decreasing healthcare results...no amount of rightwing political bullshitte is going to hide the fact we have a MD shortage... two tier healthcare does not produce MD's and Nurses... Wait times are dependant on severity of injury.. Cmon.. everyone knows that.. (oh, and if the unions are striking or working in protest). Lets recall the last Nurses protest and wait times. We have no shortage of MD's or Nurses... We have a shortage of GOOD MD's and Nurses... Again, seems the facts are point to a Tiered system working better than our current system, Ithink the left may simply be afraid of change... and loss of control Quote
guyser Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 wait times are dependent on medical staff available, france has far more MDs per capita( 3.7 to our 2.2 per K)... quality? our MD's are second to none... here is some veeeery simple math for you to digest Math is a bit much to ask, so are facts. Come on, two tier solves all problems.No reasons why, no explaination of how, just that it does! Get on the wagon wyly. Quote
guyser Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 Wait times are dependant on severity of injury.. Cmon.. everyone knows that.. Except they arent. So much for everyone knowing. Again, seems the facts are point to a Tiered system working better than our current system, Ithink the left may simply be afraid of change... and loss of control No facts , no explaination, no clue. Seems to be a pattern Quote
Fletch 27 Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) Really? I made no explanation? The WHO is in full agreement it seems on how its run in France! Yes, lets stick with the Horse and Buggy.... Lets Unionize that horse while we are at it too! Guyser, you ALWAYS say stuff like "no facts", No expelanation, etc.etc, and then you throw insults as usual.. Here: please see my original. I have inserted it below: "Like the UK, France a two-tier healthcare system, with a state-run equivalent of the NHS - Couverture Maladie Universelle (CMU) - and the private sector. In 2000, the World Health Organisation said it ran the best national healthcare system" Its rather simple but goes agains every principle of the left. It allows those who do not have the means to obtain the BEST possible medical treatement via a public pool (As we do now in Canada). For those who would rather choose thier own medical facility for any reason (affiliation, faith, ease-of-use, etc) they can pay for it. Now follow along here... When they (30-40 percent) choose thier OWN funded system (outta the wallet) they DEAPRT that tax-payer funded system opening up beds and creating efficiencies in all manners from paper to warm-body resources. If hat didnt assist you, simply go to the WHO web-site. a 2 Tiered system WORKS and works BETTER than all others. Dat, be da facts.. Edited October 29, 2012 by Fletch 27 Quote
wyly Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 Math is a bit much to ask, so are facts. Come on, two tier solves all problems.No reasons why, no explaination of how, just that it does! Get on the wagon wyly. ya...it almost leaves me for a loss of words... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
guyser Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 Really? I made no explanation? The WHO is in full agreement it seems on how its run in France! The WHO says it works well, very well in France for France. I agree. What you cannot explain is how to make that work here. Thats why I gave you the area to cover and the density. France we cannot compete w in that vein since we are far larger. Guyser, you ALWAYS say stuff like "no facts", No expelanation, etc.etc, and then you throw insults as usual.. Only when the shoe fits. Perfect fit so far for you. Here: please see my original. I have inserted it below: "Like the UK, France a two-tier healthcare system, with a state-run equivalent of the NHS - Couverture Maladie Universelle (CMU) - and the private sector. In 2000, the World Health Organisation said it ran the best national healthcare system" Its rather simple but goes agains every principle of the left. It allows those who do not have the means to obtain the BEST possible medical treatement via a public pool (As we do now in Canada). For those who would rather choose thier own medical facility for any reason (affiliation, faith, ease-of-use, etc) they can pay for it. Now follow along here... When they (30-40 percent) choose thier OWN funded system (outta the wallet) they DEAPRT that tax-payer funded system opening up beds and creating efficiencies in all manners from paper to warm-body resources. If hat didnt assist you, simply go to the WHO web-site. a 2 Tiered system WORKS and works BETTER than all others. Dat, be da facts.. And once again, no explanation of why it would work here, no nothing. As in no clue but to ram on Unions again like they are the problem. Quote
wyly Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 If hat didnt assist you, simply go to the WHO web-site. a 2 Tiered system WORKS and works BETTER than all others. Dat, be da facts.. you have no clue how the french system works... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted October 29, 2012 Report Posted October 29, 2012 What you cannot explain is how to make that work here. Thats why I gave you the area to cover and the density. France we cannot compete w in that vein since we are far larger. 269 people per sq mi compared to canada's 9 people per sq mi..., 3.7 MD's per 1000 compared to 2.2 MD's per 1000 ...simple demographics are obviously a mystery to some ...and that Canada has a better end result than France in life expectancy says a lot for how well our healthcare performs in spite of of our enormous size and lack of MD's...as my MD buddy said to me, "I could lose half of my case load and I'd still have too many patients"... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 http://www.readersdigest.ca/health/healthy-living/why-canada-shutting-out-doctors Our shortage of physicians is a manufactured and self inflicted problem. Thousand of doctors come to Canada, ace the medical exams, and then cant get residency slots. They end up driving cab or mopping floors. This guy gave up after 9 years and went to practice in the US. Khanahmadi came to Vancouver in September 2001. Because his English is flawless, he aced the language tests—written and oral—that foreign-trained doctors must pass to practise in this country. He also passed a series of Canadian medical exams. This year Khanahmadi applied for a residency position under the Canadian Resident Matching Service (CaRMS). He got two interviews but no position. Last year British Columbia had only six positions set aside in family practice for immigrant doctors. In September 2004 Khanahmadi will try for one of these positions, and he says that if he doesn’t make it this September, he’ll probably move. He has already passed the three exams necessary to work in the United States. “I’d rather stay in Canada,” he says, “but it’s so difficult for me.” We need to remove this bottleneck, and drastically change the supply/demand equation. And thats finally starting to happen... http://www.physicianjobscanada.com/manitoba-aims-is-to-ease-doctor-shortage-program-to-offer-training-and-income-support Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 take 2 Md's working in UHC serving 1000 people, now divide that into two systems, 1 md in each system serving the same 1000 people...has this improved the patient MD ratio? You are assuming the private tier would have policies that create artificial scarcity like the public tier does, but you have no idea whether or not thats the case. Theres thousands of doctors already in the country that have passed all of our medical exams and still cannot practice, a private medical system might be willing to provide resources required to allow these doctors to finish their training, and it also might streamline their certification. And theres hundreds of thousands of doctors around the world that would love to come and practice here. Im not saying two tier healthcare is the answer... Dramatically changing the ratio of supply to demand is the answer. But if the government and medical associations continue to artificially restrict the supply of doctors then I can assure you we WILL have two tier healthcare here before long. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
wyly Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) You are assuming the private tier would have policies that create artificial scarcity like the public tier does, but you have no idea whether or not thats the case. Theres thousands of doctors already in the country that have passed all of our medical exams and still cannot practice, a private medical system might be willing to provide resources required to allow these doctors to finish their training, and it also might streamline their certification. And theres hundreds of thousands of doctors around the world that would love to come and practice here. so claudia cornwall is an expert on the matter? she's a freelance journalist who's fallen for some biased boohoo story from an immigrant MD, do you believe he's going to admit he wasn't good enough?...whereas I have first hand information from MDs and others directly involved in the foreign MD accreditation procedure...MDs who drive cabs have failed to qualify to be MDs, they go through the same procedure as any canadian medical student and come up short, there's no conspiracy here, they're just not qualified and many of these failed foreign trained MDs are canadians, canadians who have gone to schools outside the country because it was cheaper or the entry qualifications were lower...they either failed the accreditation procedure or there isn't enough room to accommodate them, there are limited amounts of interns positions, if there are only capacity for 20 intern positions open the majority of those will go to canadians and not even canadians get their choice of positions they get rejected as well, the employers take the those they feel are the best candidates... "star" medical candidates are fast tracked through the system and can even skip the intern procedure... US MD's have little or no problem getting in, european MDs do well too...a doctor from Belgium practicing here told me only a week ago foreign trained MDs need to go through the same procedure as canadian MDs if they can't they're not good enough... you can cling to the meme of taxi driving MDs and greedy canadian MD's protecting their jobs but it isn't anywhere near the truth... Edited October 30, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted October 30, 2012 Report Posted October 30, 2012 so claudia cornwall is an expert on the matter? she's a freelance journalist who's fallen for some biased boohoo story from an immigrant MD, do you believe he's going to admit he wasn't good enough?...whereas I have first hand information from MDs and others directly involved in the foreign MD accreditation procedure...MDs who drive cabs have failed to qualify to be MDs, they go through the same procedure as any canadian medical student and come up short, there's no conspiracy here, they're just not qualified and many of these failed foreign trained MDs are canadians, canadians who have gone to schools outside the country because it was cheaper or the entry qualifications were lower...they either failed the accreditation procedure or there isn't enough room to accommodate them, there are limited amounts of interns positions, if there are only capacity for 20 intern positions open the majority of those will go to canadians and not even canadians get their choice of positions they get rejected as well, the employers take the those they feel are the best candidates... "star" medical candidates are fast tracked through the system and can even skip the intern procedure... US MD's have little or no problem getting in, european MDs do well too...a doctor from Belgium practicing here told me only a week ago foreign trained MDs need to go through the same procedure as canadian MDs if they can't they're not good enough... you can cling to the meme of taxi driving MDs and greedy canadian MD's protecting their jobs but it isn't anywhere near the truth... so claudia cornwall is an expert on the matter? That article is just one in a sea of such articles about our artificial MD shortage. whereas I have first hand information What you have is argumentum ad veracundium. I like you and respect your opinion but if you think you are going to win arguments with other Canadians about our medical system with appeals to your own authority then I assure you, you are mistaken. do you believe he's going to admit he wasn't good enough He (and thousands of others) passed all his medical exams and was deemed elligable for residency. The problem is simply that he could not get a slot because there is nowhere near enough of them. If you can pass the medical exams without knowing your stuff, then the exams are deficient. if there are only capacity for 20 intern positions open the majority of those will go to canadians and not even canadians get their choice of positions If there isnt enough intern positions to allow enough doctors to complete their training, then its not true to say theres an MD shortage. Theres an internship shortage. The ammount of slots available shoudl roughly equal the number of people we expect to pass the exams.... otherwise why even both wasting the money letting someone TAKE an exam, if theres no possible way they are going to get a residency slot after. The guy in the example PASSED his exams, then waited YEARS for a slot and finally gave up. STUPID. All we did was waste our money and his time. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
wyly Posted October 31, 2012 Report Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) That article is just one in a sea of such articles about our artificial MD shortage. articles blogs whatever, you can link to a thousand and they carry no weight if they're uniformed opinions...What you have is argumentum ad veracundium. I like you and respect your opinion but if you think you are going to win arguments with other Canadians about our medical system with appeals to your own authority then I assure you, you are mistaken. how does accepting journalistic articles carry more weight than someone who has real knowledge of the process? do you think those journalists and bloggers have better access to the process than I do? do you think I'm making this up? that I'm lying to you? why would I do that?He (and thousands of others) passed all his medical exams and was deemed elligable for residency. The problem is simply that he could not get a slot because there is nowhere near enough of them. If you can pass the medical exams without knowing your stuff, then the exams are deficientwhen have you heard anyone volunteer info admitting they weren't good enough, if they're rejected it's always the potential employer who is wrong, why should I believe this guy is any different?..this is how residents are selected-.Students enter into the Canadian Resident Matching Service (CaRMS) in the fall of their final year. Students rank their preferences of hospitals and specialties. In turn, the programs to which they applied rank each student. Both sets of rank lists are confidential. Each group's preferences are entered into a computerized matching system to determine placement for residency positions. so they don't get to choose where they go or their specialty unless they're at the top ranking... If there isnt enough intern positions to allow enough doctors to complete their training, then its not true to say theres an MD shortage. Theres an internship shortage. The ammount of slots available shoudl roughly equal the number of people we expect to pass the exams.... otherwise why even both wasting the money letting someone TAKE an exam, if theres no possible way they are going to get a residency slot after.. I don't know the answer to that, I'm meeting my MD buddy on thursday, I'll ask..The guy in the example PASSED his exams, then waited YEARS for a slot and finally gave up. STUPID. All we did was waste our money and his time should there be guaranteed positions waiting for them? do graduating engineers have guaranteed positions waiting for them? does anyone? there is no secret scheme to deliberately create a shortage of MDs by denying foreign MD's positions.... it's a very complex economic and political situation that basically comes down to cash, capability and capacity... Edited November 1, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted October 31, 2012 Report Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) residency is a paid job, like any paid job applications are competitive the employer has limited positions and will only take the best applicants...like any other college graduate in any field there is no guaranteed job waiting for you when you graduate...and there can't be a direct link with the number of students entering the system with residency positions because any number of students will fail...so let's say a hundred enroll in year one of med school there will not be 100 graduating, I don't know off-hand what the failure rate is in medicine but my nephew an engineer said of all the 1st year engineering students he started with 75% did not graduate in engineering...so having the exact number of residency positions match med school positions can't be done because graduation rate can't be predicted... the number of applicants per year for the residency programs varies and there are limited residency positions available fewer than there are for graduates of canadian schools which is fair...and the employers will only take the best... your BC example is either someone who isn't regarded very highly by potential employers (his opinion he did well on his exams is an unverifiable claim) or he's being picky about his placement or specialty...his repeated rejection should be a indication there is a problem with him... and I can't see how we wasted any money on his attempt to enter the system as far as I know the cost is born by the applicant... Edited November 1, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Argus Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Iv visited the ER 3 times in the last 10 years and never waited more than 15 minutes. What planet was this hospital ER on? Was it one of those small rural hospitals that only sees an occasional sheep? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 Yes, and Im aware healthcare is an issue in BC Alta Sask Man Qu NB PEI NS and Nfld not to mention Yu NWT and Nunavut. Ont ario is 5 times the size of France, density of Ontario is 13.4 vs 118. Apples to apples is comparing countries, not one country to anothers region. This is not a logical argument unless you can suggest how pop density matters. Further, the major issues in health care wait times in Canada are not out in the boonies but in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Vancouver. Pop density is largely irrelevant. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted November 18, 2012 Report Posted November 18, 2012 We have but some trot out 'everywhere else is better' without doing some critical thinking. It certainly seems that national health care is being operated far more effectively in the nordic countries, and in places like Germany, than it is here. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.