We must stop Quebecs extortion of Canada

[madmax]

I believe Quebec is getting set up as the bogeyman to challenge the transfer.

Whats next, Health Transfer...kill that too?

[Signals.Cpl]

There is NOTHING to stop other Provinces from lowering their tutition.

Except the lack of money to do so.

"HAVE" Provinces provide the baseline.

Have and Have not Provinces decide their tutition rates.

It helps if the have not provinces get financial support from the federal government at the expense of the people who live in the "have" provinces.

The rate of tutition is paid by students to the Universities, it is set by the government.

So what? If the government is in a hole as it is what can they do to lower tuition?

Provinces LOAN monies to Students.

I am well acquainted with this point as I am still paying off student loans.

Students pay.

Yes, and students pay except in the "have" provinces pay between 2 to 5 times the tuition that a student in a so called "have not" province pays.

[Signals.Cpl]

I believe Quebec is getting set up as the bogeyman to challenge the transfer.

Whats next, Health Transfer...kill that too?

I don't really care about the transfer, what pisses me off is that Quebec gets a much better deal then pretty much any other province and still has the nerve to whine and complain about being screwed over. The entitled bunch of children who rioted for so long because of a mild tuition hike cried about the "abuse" that english Canada heaps on them all the while they enjoy graduating with almost non-existent loans. My one year of university with books would cover 4 years in Quebec including books, yet they are screwed over. I send my kids to day care, I am getting robbed, yet in Quebec they pay 7 dollars a day.

They either shut up and live in peace, or lose the benefits they are getting and end up having to live like the rest of us.

[cybercoma]

Quebec gets a much better deal then pretty much any other province

Elaborate on this. How do they get a better deal? What are they getting a better deal on? You say "pretty much" any other province, why are you qualifying that with an out? What province gets a "better deal" than Quebec?

[Signals.Cpl]

Elaborate on this.

Quebec is getting subsidized by the rest of Canada in the form of Equalization payments which alleviate many of their financial problems and allow them to offer services to the people of Quebec that are not really fiscally an option in the rest of Canada.

How do they get a better deal?

Instead of getting equalization payments to boost them to the level of the "have" provinces which until recently included Ontario, they receive equalization payments which boosts them to well above the standard enjoyed by any other province in affordable day care and post-secondary school. As a province they have much more independence and freedom compared to any other province, but many in Quebec still see themselves as being oppressed by English Canada.

What are they getting a better deal on?

For example the financial assistance from the federal government in the form of equalization payments made it possible for Quebec to introduce $7/day day care which would have been unlikely without equalization payments and is unlikely in the rest of Canada.

You say "pretty much" any other province, why are you qualifying that with an out?

Because I think that at this moment, Alberta might be getting some political assistance in order to further develop their economy, but there is the difference, Alberta is getting assistance from the federal government politically and economically to become more productive while Quebec gets financial assistance to improve their services while complaining about the big bad Anglophones.

What province gets a "better deal" than Quebec?

Right now, Politically I would say Alberta.

[cybercoma]

Quebec is getting subsidized by the rest of Canada in the form of Equalization payments which alleviate many of their financial problems and allow them to offer services to the people of Quebec that are not really fiscally an option in the rest of Canada.

Their equalization payments are a fraction of what they send to Ottawa.

Instead of getting equalization payments to boost them to the level of the "have" provinces which until recently included Ontario, they receive equalization payments which boosts them to well above the standard enjoyed by any other province in affordable day care and post-secondary school.

They also have the highest provincial tax rate in the country, which has a lot to do with the level of service they provide. Nevertheless, their service levels have nothing to do with equalization payments, which is based solely on their fiscal capacity as a province. The formula used does not consider how much money they spend on programs in their province or how much their actual income tax rate is.

As a province they have much more independence and freedom compared to any other province, but many in Quebec still see themselves as being oppressed by English Canada.

How do they have more independence than other provinces? There is a single legitimate that I can think of and that has to do with the West Lothian Question as it pertains to CPP/QPP. Otherwise, Québec's provincial responsibilities are the same as every other province as outlined in the Constitution. They have no more or less independence than any other province. After all, is it not independence that they're fighting for?

For example the financial assistance from the federal government in the form of equalization payments made it possible for Quebec to introduce $7/day day care which would have been unlikely without equalization payments and is unlikely in the rest of Canada.

They do not get financial assistance from the federal government. Québeckers pay federal income taxes like all other Canadians and the federal government has operations in Québec as they do in every other province.

You complain about the equalization payments being unfair and allowing them to have services that other provinces don't have and this is simply not true. Your argument is underpinned by the assumption that equalization payments have something to do with their programs and expenses. It doesn't. It has to do with their fiscal capacity as determined by the same formula used for all the provinces. Québec isn't operating on a different formula or by some different standard. The reason they have lower tuition and childcare is that their National Assembly made those things a priority; hence, Québec has the highest provincial income tax rate in the country. With the taxes that Québeckers pay, they ought to be insulted at the suggestion that Canada is "giving" them money. If you're so jealous of their services, then petition your own province to provide the same.

Because I think that at this moment, Alberta might be getting some political assistance in order to further develop their economy, but there is the difference, Alberta is getting assistance from the federal government politically and economically to become more productive while Quebec gets financial assistance to improve their services while complaining about the big bad Anglophones.

You need to stop jumping between equalization payments and assistance. What does assistance mean? Does federal spending on EI, postal service, military, public sector employees, Parks Canada, buoys/lighthouses, shipping/navigation, inland fisheries, currency, banking, weights/measurements regulation, natives/reserves, immigration, marriage/divorce licensing, and federal penitentiaries all count as "assistance"? Do provincial health and social transfers count as assistance? Or are you just simply talking about equalization? The federal government spends money in provinces in a number of different ways because they are the federal government. That doesn't mean the provinces are getting "assistance," as those things I outlined above are federal responsibilities. The federal government raises its own taxes and spends money on those operations.

You need to take some time and go through the federal government's websites that explain equalization payments and learn how they work, instead of relying on the commentary of reporters that either praise or criticize the program. Your arguments make it sound like you're relying entirely on second-hand information. It would be good to have a full understanding how equalization payments work and why we have equalization payments in this country before you run around criticizing Québec. It looks rather foolish when you're criticizing a province for a program that is entirely a federal responsibility, a program Québec has absolutely no control over.

[Canada_james]

Regardless of the minute technicalities...if Quebec hates Canada so much, and they said numerous times as soon as they are on decent financial footing they will attempt separation again. So it means while Quebec can profit from Canada it stays, but as soon as it has to contribute it wants out. This debate is not on how Quebec exactly gets its help from Canada, but the principle is that they really don't like Canada, but are willing to take what they can while it suits them.

Like the example of the spouse that hates you, that takes your money, uses it for their benefit, you bend over backwards to accommodate, contributes nothing, and tells you as soon as she can they're divorcing you.

You want a divorce? Fine, you don't like Canada fine. Take your share of the debt, no more help, manage on your own if being in Canada is such a burden.

Canada is the greatest country in the world, safe, great opportunity, a nice balance of business incentives and social services... I hate it when people bash Canada.

BTW this has nothing to do with the language. If someone doesn't like Canada, no matter the language, get out. I don't understand why we need to bend over backwards for anyone.

[g_bambino]

f Quebec hates Canada so much, and they said numerous times as soon as they are on decent financial footing they will attempt separation again. So it means while Quebec can profit from Canada it stays, but as soon as it has to contribute it wants out. This debate is not on how Quebec exactly gets its help from Canada, but the principle is that they really don't like Canada, but are willing to take what they can while it suits them.

Why do you equate the geopolitical entity of Quebec with the inhabitants thereof and speak of them as though they were a monotonous unit with a single opinion?

[Canada_james]

They voted for a separatist government, the CAQ was no better. Merge both together. Right now Quebec is a net beneficiary of payments from Canada, you think if Quebec had to pay that the separatist movement won't come back in full force?

Why do you equate the geopolitical entity of Quebec with the inhabitants thereof and speak of them as though they were a monotonous unit with a single opinion?

[cybercoma]

if Quebec hates Canada so much, and they said numerous times as soon as they are on decent financial footing they will attempt separation again.

Your incomplete sentence aside, what do you mean "Québec hates Canada?" Québec is a province. It doesn't have feelings. Who hates Canada? Separatists? That's not even true. Some of them have been proposing sovereignty association. Do you mean Quebeckers more generally? If you're basing "hate" on aspirations for independence (which is arguable whether or not they "hate" Canada), then recent polling only has that around 30% and the actual referenda votes failed. So it's not Quebeckers more generally that hate Canada.

So who is this mystery group that "hates Canada" then? I don't know, but it certainly isn't Québec. That's like saying Canada hates the United Kingdom because we have sovereignty. It doesn't make sense and is completely illogical.

So it means while Quebec can profit from Canada

Québec doesn't profit from Canada. People in Québec pay the same federal income taxes as everyone else. Québec also has nothing to do with the rules around equalization payments and they aren't even the only province that gets them.

it stays, but as soo as it has to contribute it wants out.

Where do you even get this idea from? As soon as Québec has to contribute it wants out? How was Québec not been contributing? Out of 10 provinces they provide nearly 20% of all income tax revenue to the federal government, so that the federal government can carry out its operations throughout the entire country. Some of those operations are in Québec, so of course they're going to be spending money in the province. In fact, the geographic size, location and the population of Québec mean that a considerable amount of federal money needs to be spent there. The things the federal government spends money on, however, are not the provinces responsibility anywhere in this country. So your statement that as soon as they have to contribute, even though the demand on their contribution hasn't changed, they want out doesn't make any sense either. They do contribute, substantially in fact and the idea of Québécois independence isn't something new.

This debate is not on how Quebec exactly gets its help from Canada, but the principle is that they really don't like Canada, but are willing to take what they can while it suits them.

So it's about a principle that you've made up in your head, an emotional argument that suits your anti-Québec ideology.

Like the example of the spouse that hates you, that takes your money, uses it for their benefit, you bend over backwards to accommodate, contributes nothing, and tells you as soon as she can they're divorcing you.

You want a divorce? Fine, you don't like Canada fine. Take your share of the debt, no more help, manage on your own if being in Canada is such a burden.

Canada is the greatest country in the world, safe, great opportunity, a nice balance of business incentives and social services... I hate it when people bash Canada.

BTW this has nothing to do with the language. If someone doesn't like Canada, no matter the language, get out. I don't understand why we need to bend over backwards for anyone.

Nothing to do with language, eh? I don't think anyone said it had anything to do with language. You're bringing up language, which really doesn't convince me that it's not about that, now that you mention it.

Edit: Sorry Signals... had your quote on my clipboard. Didn't notice I was pasting it for the quotes

Edited September 11, 2012 by cybercoma

[g_bambino]

They voted for a separatist government...

Every single voter in Quebec voted for the PQ? Odd. How is it, then, that the PQ doesn't occupy every seat in the legislature? In fact, they barely hold a plurality.

[ed.: sp]

Edited September 11, 2012 by g_bambino

[cybercoma]

They voted for a separatist government

32% of people that voted cast ballots for the Parti Québécois. "They" is not even remotely close to a simple majority, let alone a consensus vote. Moreover, the PQ is not solely about sovereignty.

the CAQ was no better. Merge both together.

Why would I merge both of them together? They're entirely different parties, with different platforms. Your issue is with sovereignty and the CAQ is not a sovereignty party. They even ran on the platform that they wouldn't re-open it for at least 10 years. They want to put the debate to bed for the financial benefit of Québec.

Right now Quebec is a net beneficiary of payments from Canada

That's false. Equalization payments are much less than the amount of money that Québec contributes to Ottawa. You gloss over important details as though it were minutiae. There is a significant difference however between receiving payments and monies spent by the federal government for federal operations.

you think if Quebec had to pay that the separatist movement won't come back in full force?

Québec has to pay what? Quebeckers pay the same income tax you do. Plus the highest provincial incomes taxes in the country.

[cybercoma]

Every single voter in Quebec voted for the PQ? Odd. How is it, then, that the PQ doesn't occupy every seat in the legislature? In fact, they barely hold a plurality.

[ed.: sp]

Even their popular vote is only a fraction of a single percentage point higher than the Liberal Party.

[Signals.Cpl]

Their equalization payments are a fraction of what they send to Ottawa.

This is BS, when all is added up the funds they send to the Federal government is about I believe 11-13 billion less than what they receive. You keep saying they receive far less than they give the government but that is bullsh*t.

They also have the highest provincial tax rate in the country, which has a lot to do with the level of service they provide. Nevertheless, their service levels have nothing to do with equalization payments, which is based solely on their fiscal capacity as a province. The formula used does not consider how much money they spend on programs in their province or how much their actual income tax rate is.

Yes equalization payments do go toward the services, without the equalization payment Quebec's budget will be much smaller budget = less services...smaller budget != more services.

How do they have more independence than other provinces?

Immigration, embassies in other countries, and a seat in some international organization...need I go on?

There is a single legitimate that I can think of and that has to do with the West Lothian Question as it pertains to CPP/QPP. Otherwise, Québec's provincial responsibilities are the same as every other province as outlined in the Constitution. They have no more or less independence than any other province. After all, is it not independence that they're fighting for?

1) Look above, and 2) I'm pretty sure that most separatists are fighting for independence within Canada so that they can have the best of both worlds.

They do not get financial assistance from the federal government. Québeckers pay federal income taxes like all other Canadians and the federal government has operations in Québec as they do in every other province.

Sure they do, equalization payments, constantly favoring Quebec companies for contracts and many crown corporations have their HQ in Montreal to please Quebecers.

You complain about the equalization payments being unfair and allowing them to have services that other provinces don't have and this is simply not true.

Listen, I don’t care if it is unfair, my issue is with them consistently whining and crying about how hard done they are by the ROC while they get better services BECAUSE of the ROC.

Your argument is underpinned by the assumption that equalization payments have something to do with their programs and expenses.

Ok, what do they use equalization payments for? Explain it to me if they don’t use it as part of the budget what do they sue the payments for? Do they burn the money?

It doesn't. It has to do with their fiscal capacity as determined by the same formula used for all the provinces.

Irrelevant, they get money they get more than their fair share and still complain about not getting more.

Québec isn't operating on a different formula or by some different standard.

But they are complaining that they are not operating by a different standard...the complaints I'm hearing is that they are "just" another province and deserve to be a nation even though they have not shown capable of standing on their own 2 feet over the last 50 years so I can’t see where they get that attitude of superiority.

The reason they have lower tuition and childcare is that their National Assembly made those things a priority;

Where did they get the money from?

hence, Québec has the highest provincial income tax rate in the country.

And one of the lowest income per capita in Canada so I doubt it comes from there.

With the taxes that Québeckers pay, they ought to be insulted at the suggestion that Canada is "giving" them money.

So you are saying that should the Federal government remove equalization payments tomorrow, they will be able to maintain their programs in the long run? Without help from the ROC...

If you're so jealous of their services, then petition your own province to provide the same.

the ROC paid for their services, who is going to pay for the same level of services for the ROC? Quebec?

You need to stop jumping between equalization payments and assistance.

Equalization payments=money they get from the federal government.

Assistance=Every time they cry, the Federal government gives them a new contract.

What does assistance mean? Does federal spending on EI, postal service, military, public sector employees, Parks Canada, buoys/lighthouses, shipping/navigation, inland fisheries, currency, banking, weights/measurements regulation, natives/reserves, immigration, marriage/divorce licensing, and federal penitentiaries all count as "assistance"?

No, giving them special treatment and preference when it comes to federal contracts counts as assistance.

Do provincial health and social transfers count as assistance? Or are you just simply talking about equalization? The federal government spends money in provinces in a number of different ways because they are the federal government. That doesn't mean the provinces are getting "assistance," as those things I outlined above are federal responsibilities. The federal government raises its own taxes and spends money on those operations.

CF-18 maintenance contract anyone?

You need to take some time and go through the federal government's websites that explain equalization payments and learn how they work, instead of relying on the commentary of reporters that either praise or criticize the program. Your arguments make it sound like you're relying entirely on second-hand information.

Explain it to me if you are so well educated on the subject...all I am reading here is you repeating that the equalization payments don’t pay for services which is 100% bullshit.

It would be good to have a full understanding how equalization payments work and why we have equalization payments in this country before you run around criticizing Québec.

Again, you seem to ignore that most people criticize Quebec not for the equalization payments, but because they always have their hand out to beg/demand more while complaining how they are getting screwed.

It looks rather foolish when you're criticizing a province for a program that is entirely a federal responsibility, a program Québec has absolutely no control over.

Once again my issue is with Quebec complaining about not getting ENOUGH and always getting SCREWED by the ROC rather than the payments themselves.

[PIK]

It would be nice, and refreshing, if you expressed views on a range of topics. I am an e-mail correspondent with a few pro-English speaking groups. I hope you are merely supporting a view against subsidies and pandering to a vote-powerful minority.

From your rhetoric I fear you may also be a bigot. I hope not.

If you claim to speak English, learn to spell.

Nothing worse then a grammer cop.

[guyser]

Quebec with the inhabitants thereof and speak of them as though they were a monotonous unit with a single opinion?

Cuz they put me to sleep...

Sorry couldnt resist

[cybercoma]

This is BS, when all is added up the funds they send to the Federal government is about I believe 11-13 billion less than what they receive. You keep saying they receive far less than they give the government but that is bullsh*t.

There's a difference between PAYMENTS received from the federal government and what the federal government spends on its operations in the province. If you end equalization payments, the federal government still has to spend money on military, first nations, seaways, inland fisheries, postal services, EI, etc. etc. etc. That stuff doesn't go away and it's not a transfer or payment to the province. Québec provides the federal government with 20% of their revenues from income taxes. When you look at the money that Québec gets back in the form of a free-and-clear payment, it's much much less than what they're sending to Ottawa. Moreover, the equalization payment that they receive is out of their control. It's based on the federal governments formula that determines a province's fiscal capacity.

Yes equalization payments do go toward the services, without the equalization payment Quebec's budget will be much smaller budget = less services...smaller budget != more services.

Equlization payments go towards whatever the province wants to put them towards. That's the same for Québec and every other province in the country.

The question you need to be asking is how is any of this Québec's fault or responsibility? Their budget and tax rate have nothing to do with what the federal government sends to them.

Immigration, embassies in other countries, and a seat in some international organization...need I go on?

Big deal. Other provinces have seats in international organizations, so scratch that. Québec has more say over immigration and has embassies in other countries for obvious reasons.

1) Look above, and 2) I'm pretty sure that most separatists are fighting for independence within Canada so that they can have the best of both worlds.

You're pretty sure? Ok. So you're making up a position for separatists in order to fight against it? Got it.

Sure they do, equalization payments, constantly favoring Quebec companies for contracts and many crown corporations have their HQ in Montreal to please Quebecers.

Equalization payments are out of Québec's control. Favouring Québec companies is wrong when you consider that industry in Canada is concentrated in Ontario/Québec and the proper open-tender process for procurement and contracts.

Listen, I don’t care if it is unfair, my issue is with them consistently whining and crying about how hard done they are by the ROC while they get better services BECAUSE of the ROC.

Who's whining and crying? What are they whining and crying about? How are they hard done by? Are they complaining that they don't get enough money or do they have some other complaints?

Ok, what do they use equalization payments for? Explain it to me if they don’t use it as part of the budget what do they sue the payments for? Do they burn the money?

It doesn't matter what they use them for. They use them for the exact same thing every other province that gets equalization payments uses them for.

Irrelevant, they get money they get more than their fair share and still complain about not getting more.

Prove that they get more than their fair share. The formula is the exact same for every province. Québec doesn't get an additional top-up over and above the equalization formula. They get the exact same thing every other province in the country gets.

But they are complaining that they are not operating by a different standard...the complaints I'm hearing is that they are "just" another province and deserve to be a nation even though they have not shown capable of standing on their own 2 feet over the last 50 years so I can’t see where they get that attitude of superiority.

Why does sovereignty mean superiority to you? Sounds like a personal issue. Does gaining independence from your parents when you become an adult mean you're superior to them?

Where did they get the money from?

From the highest provincial income tax rates in the nation and from the federal tax dollars Quebeckers send to Ottawa that gets re-alocated to the province to spend as it wants.

And one of the lowest income per capita in Canada so I doubt it comes from there.

Median household income in Québec is greater than all of the Atlantic provinces and within $1000 of Manitoba and British Columbia. The only provinces with a significantly higher median income are Ontario, Alberta, and Saskatchewan. Apparently, middle of the pack is one of the lowest incomes to you. Not only are they middle of the pack, but they also have one of the largest populations in the country. So yeah.... Québec gets its revenues from its citizens.

So you are saying that should the Federal government remove equalization payments tomorrow, they will be able to maintain their programs in the long run? Without help from the ROC...

Of course I'm not saying that. Equalization payments are in place for a reason. Look into it.

the ROC paid for their services, who is going to pay for the same level of services for the ROC? Quebec?

You wouldn't ask this question if you understood how and why Canada has equalization payments.

Equalization payments=money they get from the federal government.

Assistance=Every time they cry, the Federal government gives them a new contract.

Funny how you say the federal government giving private businesses a contract is assistance to the provincial government. The federal government has operations. They need work done; they go find a contractor. This has nothing to do with Québec, transfer payments, equalization, or federal-provincial fiscal relations.

Explain it to me if you are so well educated on the subject...all I am reading here is you repeating that the equalization payments don’t pay for services which is 100% bullshit.

I never once said that. Equalization payments go towards whatever the province wants to spend them on. If you need me to explain to you how they work and why we have them, then you should spend some time on parliament's website and look it up.

Again, you seem to ignore that most people criticize Quebec not for the equalization payments, but because they always have their hand out to beg/demand more while complaining how they are getting screwed.

Begging for more what? Every province puts their hand out when the federal government is spending money. If they're not, then that's the shortcoming of those provincial governments, not a fault of a Québec's.

Once again my issue is with Quebec complaining about not getting ENOUGH and always getting SCREWED by the ROC rather than the payments themselves.

I don't actually see Québec demanding any more than the other provinces. Didn't Ontario MPs demand a billion dollar bridge? Didn't Tony Clement build multimillion dollar gazebos? Didn't Nova Scotia and New Brunswick get billion dollar ship building contracts? Oh, but Québec got the CF-18 contract. Those selfish bastards.

[cybercoma]

Cuz they put me to sleep...

Sorry couldnt resist

haha. When I first read his post, I just read it as "homogeneous." I didn't even realize he wrote "monotonous" until you quoted it.

Edited September 11, 2012 by cybercoma

[g_bambino]

haha. When I first read his post, I just read it as "homogeneous." I didn't even realize he wrote "monotonous" until you quoted it.

Neither did I.

[guyser]

Neither did I.

Even funnier, I read in the word monogamous.....One word, two different read-ins.

[cybercoma]

The forum's a bit slappy today.

[westguy]

Quebec receives over half the transfer payments from the provinces. Quebec stated multiple times it wants to leave Canada. It hates the English Canadian but it's more than happy to take our money. By the way, I live in Quebec so I have first hand experience on how much they dislike Canada. Why should a BC student, Ontario student, Alberta or any other student in Canada have to pay more than a Quebec student? Why does the tax dollars of hard working and proud Canadians go to people that waste it and hate us? This must end...Mr Harper, stand up for Canada, stand up for Canadians. Don't give in to extortion.

I created a group on facebook. We can make a difference, we can, all united do what's right for Canada and Canadians. Join the page, spread the word..talk to your politicians..no more!

http://www.facebook.com/FedUpWithQuebec

James

why ideed

[westguy]

I think you need to learn how equalization payments work. It has absolutely nothing to do with Quebec's tax rate or how much money it spends.

see rea;ity for a change cyber

[westguy]

Easy, you never made a typo? You mentioned expressing my views on a wide range of topics...what time did i post this? Not 2 hours ago? Even tho this board is very interesting, I can't post that quick. And a bigot, in what sense? That I say it's unfair for a broke, irresponsible province to ask for more from the rest of Canada? Did I mention the french people or language? You seem to jump to conclusions pretty quickly sir. Did you read about what Mrs Marois was going to demand mr Harper? More concessions from Ottawa..and more money.

I am totally behind you and agree with your sentiment

[westguy]

That's a good point. But I think it's less a case against Quebec than it is a case against high tuition rates in BC, Ontario and Alberta...

all provinces pay more tuition than Quebec