"the english are waking up!"

[Benz]

I never really bought the argument that Québec doesn't have self-determination. They're a province within a confederacy of provinces that makes up Canada. They have self-determination through their own provincial government, which they call their National Assembly, and also by having a significant contingent in the House of Commons of 75/308 seats. In fact, their Québec nationalist party, the Bloc Québécois, was the official opposition at one point. To me, a state that has its own National Assembly and significant representation in the confederacy just doesn't sound like a state that's lacking self-determination.

This is beside the point. Québec has total legitimity for self-determination.

The point is, the english canada beleives that because they out number the french, it allows them to have total exclusivity on the constitution. Therefore, the supreme laws of the country are settled by the anglos alone and the french have no say. They are dorwned into the english majority. No nation in the world would accept a situation like that.

The constitution is not something meant to change every 4 years. It's the foundation of a nation, the laws that suppose to protect the citezens, it's the basic rules. Every sovereign nation shall have access to it, no matter what country you are in. So it is very important that all nations of a union have a say on its constitution. Wel in Canada, Québec is being kick out officially since april 1982.

In the 80's, the Quebec liberals tried to solve this with Meech, then screwed everythign with Charlottown. In the 90's the sovereignists tried to convince the population to try independence and failed by less than 1%. Afterward Charest pleased the english Canada by shutting the f--- up and not bother them about anything. Result, the sovereignists are back again and even if not everyone agree the independence is urgent at the moment, most of the people don't beleive in Canada anymore and considere independence inevitable in the future.

This unity is living on borrowed time. You cannot expect the french to accept to leave under an english canadian constitution. You are just shoveling Canada's grave.

The only english canadian politician that finally understood the Quebec's position was Jack Layton. He knew exaclty what to say to gain our trust for a better Canada and that's why Quebec did a major shift to NDP, even among very sovereignists fellows like me. Damn on the fatality, he's dead now.

If in your heart, deep down, you would really want to find a way to solve the problem. You would support the idea to accept that the Quebec nation must have a say on the constitution. It's a normal thing for a union having more than one nation.

But the majority of english canadians have a different perspective. Because they do not really understand Quebec, they see Quebec that should be just like the other provinces and does not want to. They others comply, why don't you do so too. It's very difficult for an english canadian to accept that it could be otherwise because in their mindset, it's not normal that one province is different from the others. It doesn't look fair. The fail in that mindset is... QUEBEC IS NOT A PROVINCE LIKE THE OTHERS. Québec is the home of a nation where the people are in huge majority french, unlike the other provinces where the english are inhuge majority. Whether you like it or not, whether you agree or not, english and french are two different nations.

The time of the French and Indian war is over. The time of british colonialism meant to destroy all natives and assimilate the french is over. Now it's the time to accept each other, respect each others and make this union works for the common good. It is not for the common good to leave the french aside to satisfy the english supremacy. If you do that, it only means that you want to milk the Quebec province until this one decides to leave.

[Signals.Cpl]

This is beside the point. Québec has total legitimity for self-determination.

The point is, the english canada beleives that because they out number the french, it allows them to have total exclusivity on the constitution. Therefore, the supreme laws of the country are settled by the anglos alone and the french have no say. They are dorwned into the english majority. No nation in the world would accept a situation like that.

How has English Canada Oppressed Quebec in any way shape or form? If anything it is Quebec that is oppressing their English speaking minority.

The constitution is not something meant to change every 4 years. It's the foundation of a nation, the laws that suppose to protect the citezens, it's the basic rules.

And that is exactly what it does, how does it in anyway work against French Speaking citizens?

Every sovereign nation shall have access to it, no matter what country you are in. So it is very important that all nations of a union have a say on its constitution. Wel in Canada, Québec is being kick out officially since april 1982.

How exactly has Quebec been “kicked” out officially since 1982?

In the 80's, the Quebec liberals tried to solve this with Meech, then screwed everythign with Charlottown. In the 90's the sovereignists tried to convince the population to try independence and failed by less than 1%.

It’s funny but democracy works like that.

Afterward Charest pleased the english Canada by shutting the f--- up and not bother them about anything.

Apparently he please at least 50% of Quebecers as well, don’t you think so?

Result, the sovereignists are back again and even if not everyone agree the independence is urgent at the moment, most of the people don't beleive in Canada anymore and considere independence inevitable in the future.

Do you have anything supporting such claims? Because the PQ beat the liberals by 60,000 votes and 4 seats.

This unity is living on borrowed time.

I am all for kicking a sovereigntist’s out of the country, give them a piece of land to call their own, and take away passports and citizenship, no more Federal Government protecting Quebec’s industries, no more equalization payments, no more cheap education for Quebec. At the end of the day, Canada will be better off without Quebec than Quebec without Canada.

You cannot expect the french to accept to leave under an english canadian constitution.

I don’t think we expect the French to live under the Canadian constitution, I’m sure France has its own constitution.

You are just shoveling Canada's grave.

Canada is as strong as ever, there is no real threat of Quebec gaining their independence anytime soon, and if they did gain independence that will not weaken Canada by much.

The only english canadian politician that finally understood the Quebec's position was Jack Layton. He knew exaclty what to say to gain our trust for a better Canada and that's why Quebec did a major shift to NDP, even among very sovereignists fellows like me. Damn on the fatality, he's dead now.

Yeah, the NDP will not last long in Quebec, or it will not last long in the ROC.

If in your heart, deep down, you would really want to find a way to solve the problem. You would support the idea to accept that the Quebec nation must have a say on the constitution. It's a normal thing for a union having more than one nation.

I would rather accept Quebec as a fully independent nation and let them live in squalor rather than subjugate the rest of us to the whims of a entitled minority.

But the majority of english canadians have a different perspective.

Yes, we want to look out for out interests as well, rather than have the entire nation work and pay taxes in order to satisfy Quebec.

Because they do not really understand Quebec, they see Quebec that should be just like the other provinces and does not want to.

Quebec is a province, and thus has to be equal to other provinces, either Quebec is a province, or Quebec is independent, what people like you want is to keep all the good things Quebec gets from Canada while tossing away all the bad things, and life does not work in such a fashion, you take the good with the bad or not at all.

They others comply, why don't you do so too. It's very difficult for an english canadian to accept that it could be otherwise because in their mindset, it's not normal that one province is different from the others.

It’s not normal for one province to demand superior status to all other provinces you are either a province, or an independent nation, it is one or the other, you cant keep the benefits of being a province and a Canadian citizens, while taking the benefits of being an independent nation.

It doesn't look fair.

Damn right it doesn’t look fair, it is not fair to the other 27,000,000 people in the country.

The fail in that mindset is... QUEBEC IS NOT A PROVINCE LIKE THE OTHERS.

Damn right its not like the other provinces, the other provinces give and take, Quebec takes takes takes…

Québec is the home of a nation where the people are in huge majority french, unlike the other provinces where the english are inhuge majority. Whether you like it or not, whether you agree or not, english and french are two different nations.

Different languages yes, different nations NO!

The time of the French and Indian war is over. The time of british colonialism meant to destroy all natives and assimilate the french is over.

If the British had tried to “assimilate” Quebec they would have, the British gave more freedoms to Quebec than they gave to the 13 colonies.

Now it's the time to accept each other, respect each others and make this union works for the common good.

Be a good little province or be an independent nation either way it will work, but what will not work because the ROC will be unsatisfied is to have you as a province and a nation.

It is not for the common good to leave the french aside to satisfy the english supremacy. If you do that, it only means that you want to milk the Quebec province until this one decides to leave.

Quebec is milking Canada, not the other way around.

[Wild Bill]

How has English Canada Oppressed Quebec in any way shape or form? If anything it is Quebec that is oppressing their English speaking minority.

Few people care to examine how Quebec was treated from the days of the Plains of Abraham in context. They prefer to apply modern standards to historical times.

The treatment of French Canada by the British was unheard of every before in Man's history! They imposed no cruel taxes or levies. They were given complete freedom not just with their religion but with their legal system! No other European country would even have thought of doing such, including France.

Later, when Canada was formed, Quebec was accepted as not just an equal province among others but a powerful one.

Some days I think that if our Founding Fathers could see how Quebec thinks of English Canada today they would wonder why they ever bothered to do so much for so little thanks.

[cybercoma]

How has English Canada Oppressed Quebec in any way shape or form? If anything it is Quebec that is oppressing their English speaking minority.

Not really. Not any more than Alberta or Nova Scotia oppresses its francophone minority.

I am all for kicking a sovereigntist’s out of the country

How democratic of you. Fascist ideas like this give the sovereigntists validity. They're working within the democratic institutions of this country. Ideas like yours are against them. If you want to look at things in black and white terms, and it seems you do, that places you squarely on the side of the bad guys.

I don’t think we expect the French to live under the Canadian constitution, I’m sure France has its own constitution.

What does France have to do with Québec? They share a language, so what? There's lots of other francophone states around the globe. Canadian francophones are Canadians or Québécois, but they are not French nationals.

Canada is as strong as ever, there is no real threat of Quebec gaining their independence anytime soon, and if they did gain independence that will not weaken Canada by much.

It would be devastating to Canada. Make no mistake about it. Québec has the second highest GDP in the country, behind Ontario. They contribute to roughly 20% of the nation's total GDP. It's also the second largest revenue generator for the federal government, right behind Ontario. They contribute nearly 20% of federal revenues. So when you say it will not weaken Canada much, you're exaggerating. It will weaken Canada and significantly so, if it were ever to happen.

Yeah, the NDP will not last long in Quebec, or it will not last long in the ROC.

They may not last long in Québec, but they've been around since the Depression. The NDP isn't going anywhere.

Yes, we want to look out for out interests as well, rather than have the entire nation work and pay taxes in order to satisfy Quebec.

As I mentioned above, Québec contributes to nearly 20% of federal revenues. They work and pay taxes like everyone else. If you want to go down the road of talking about how much in federal taxes a province pays versus what they receive, there is no province in the green other than Alberta. Every single province receives more than it pays. That spending isn't for social programs or provincial matters. This isn't just equalization payments we're talking about. This is for every last thing that the federal government spends money on (ie, military, festivals, aboriginals, postal service, etc.). As long as the federal government runs deficits, it's going to continue spending more money than it takes in. That has nothing to do with the provinces or equalization payments though.

Quebec is a province, and thus has to be equal to other provinces, either Quebec is a province, or Quebec is independent

That's one argument and I tend to agree with it. That doesn't mean I can't see the case for asymmetrical federalism due to the unique cultural and historical characteristics of Québec. I can see it. I don't agree with it.

what people like you want is to keep all the good things Quebec gets from Canada while tossing away all the bad things, and life does not work in such a fashion, you take the good with the bad or not at all.

Why must posters say "what people like you want" or "what your ilk believes" etc. etc. etc. You're not in people's heads. You don't know what their wants, beliefs, or desires are. When you say "people like you" or "your ilk," you might as well hang a big sign on your post that says "STRAWMAN STARTS HERE" because you're almost certainly about to paint a picture of what you imagine that person believes or is arguing, rather than what they're actually saying.

In any case, your argument here works to support Québec staying a part of confederation. Federalists want all the good things Québec has to offer without accepting the negatives or at least what federalists would perceive as negatives. In other words, Québec is entitled to all the same rights as other provinces as far as equalization payments and other things go. You don't want to accept that, but it's ok to collect 20% of federal revenues from them.

It’s not normal for one province to demand superior status to all other provinces you are either a province, or an independent nation, it is one or the other, you cant keep the benefits of being a province and a Canadian citizens, while taking the benefits of being an independent nation.

Canada has a federalist arrangement. Each province is independent over its own affairs. They even have their own Crowns. However, I do agree that one province ought not be claiming special status within the federal arrangement. That Québec demands this I believe it says more about that arrangement and how federal powers have encroached on the provinces' powers than it does about Québec though. If they don't feel free enough to manage their own affairs, then certainly the other provinces aren't free enough to manage their own affairs.

I don't believe this is the case though. I believe Québec is unique and does have a special place both culturally and historically within Canada. Nevertheless, they do have the freedom for self-determination within our federalist system. I fail to see any serious limitations imposed upon that from our federal government.

Damn right it doesn’t look fair, it is not fair to the other 27,000,000 people in the country.

Damn right its not like the other provinces, the other provinces give and take, Quebec takes takes takes…

Actually, as long as the federal government continues running deficits all the other provinces take as well, except Alberta right now. If the price of oil tanks, they will be seriously impacted, since oil sand extraction is an expensive process.

What you many people seem to fail to take into account in these arguments is that equalization payments have absolutely nothing to do with what programs a province has or what that province's tax rate is. The federal government has a formula for figuring out fiscal capacity based on what the average tax rate across the country should be and the ability of the province to raise that money. They determine equalization payments off that not what the province actually collects or spends.

If the British had tried to “assimilate” Quebec they would have, the British gave more freedoms to Quebec than they gave to the 13 colonies.

They tried and realized it was a losing proposition. Many American settlers that moved north after the British won this land from the French were actually pushed quite hard for assimilation. The English here were vastly outnumbered despite the number of English immigrants that they tried to persuade to come over. So assimilation wasn't for lack of trying, it was because they faced fierce resistance to it. They would have rather had loyal subjects to the British crown than a colony that despised it and resisted everything it tried to do, so they made compromises.

Be a good little province or be an independent nation either way it will work, but what will not work because the ROC will be unsatisfied is to have you as a province and a nation.

All the other provinces are supposed to have independence of their own affairs as well. Again, it's a federalist arrangement. It's possible for them to be independent parts of a whole.

Quebec is milking Canada, not the other way around.

With the amount they contribute to our GDP and federal revenues, you're wrong about Québec milking Canada. The rest of Canada, however, is also not milking them.

Edited September 6, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

TL,DR.

[Signals.Cpl]

How democratic of you. Fascist ideas like this give the sovereigntists validity. They're working within the democratic institutions of this country. Ideas like yours are against them. If you want to look at things in black and white terms, and it seems you do, that places you squarely on the side of the bad guys.

Canada. The rest of Canada, however, is also not milking them.

How ignorant of you... first of all it is most definitely not a fascist idea to let sovereigntists leave and form their own nation since that is their whole point. If 45% of Quebecers want to separate so badly I am all for it, carve up a chunk of Quebec and let them go, while the rest, the once who want to stay in Canada can stay a province. I am still wondering how letting sovereigntists get what they want is fascist... or do you have a problem understanding the word fascist?

[Benz]

How has English Canada Oppressed Quebec in any way shape or form? If anything it is Quebec that is oppressing their English speaking minority.

I have no information regarding your fictional imagination.

Oppresed english minority in Quebec... give me a break. Compared to the french in english canada, the english here are in total harmony.

And that is exactly what it does, how does it in anyway work against French Speaking citizens?

There are several examples. I'll give you one. For the french, it is unacceptable to bring weapons inside a public school. No matter what religion you are from. In english Canada, you are allowed to bring a weapon to your public school because it says in the constitution that personal religion is above the rules. Few years ago, a singh went up to the supreme court for his case because he lost at the highest court in Québec. Guess what, he won. Now Quebec is forced to spend money on security in public schools so we can allow this kid ti bring its Kirpan with him. It might make sense to you, it doesn't not to us at all. It's ourtageous. Our nation does not beleive that personal religion of an individual is above the law like you do.

So in 1981, if the english Canada would have not betrayed Québec and would try to negociate like good guys do... either you would have to remove that clause, or make it valid only outside Québec.

How exactly has Quebec been “kicked” out officially since 1982?

Before 1982, there were no precise rules. It was common sense to make sure both nations (called culture by the anglos because they disdained the word nation) are agreing. After april 1982, with the patriation of the constitution from London, the new rule was this one: a change to the constitution requires the approval of 50% of the population + at least 7 provinces out of ten. Since the french are just 25% of Canada and they are in majority only in one province, it means it is no longer required to deal with the opinion of the french to set any further changes. Quebec does still have a since on some matter like the language though, but language is not the only one thing we do care off.

It’s funny but democracy works like that.

I know and we respected it. The federalists however did not respect their promises and nor they respected the fact that the majority of french speaking people said yes. Instead of finding solutions, they did the other way around. Propagandas, corruptions and sealed the door to solutions.

Apparently he please at least 50% of Quebecers as well, don’t you think so?

No. Because the federalists back then did a lot of promises to the Québécois to make them vote no. None of them have been done.

Do you have anything supporting such claims? Because the PQ beat the liberals by 60,000 votes and 4 seats.

CAQ is not federalist nor sovereignist and this is why no anglos voted for them despite the liberals are totally corrupted. Legault said he doesn't want a referendum because it's not the right time. He also said he doesn't want the defend the federalism and will not be the leader of no side if a referendum occurs. It means that the people who voted CAQ do not belong neither on independence, nor on the status quo. Even among those who voted PLQ. The PLQ is officially against the actual constitution. The difference between them and the PQ is, they beleive we must wait the right time to enter again into endless negociations with Ottawa to renew the constitution. So if we look at the political parties, 0% of the people vote in favor of the status quo. However, the english vote liberal because they beleive it's the best party to fight the PQ. The only people in Quebec that are satisfied with the status quo are the anglos, alot of immigrants and very few french federalists. Moreless 35% of the population. The sovereignists are about the same number. 30% can move to either side.

I am all for kicking a sovereigntist’s out of the country, give them a piece of land to call their own, and take away passports and citizenship, no more Federal Government protecting Quebec’s industries, no more equalization payments, no more cheap education for Quebec. At the end of the day, Canada will be better off without Quebec than Quebec without Canada.

Ok, let's go then. But some of your fellows that did not swallowed the same bullshit as you do, knows it is not in Canada's best interest to break out without at least to try for real this time to get to an agreement. My first priority is to get sovereignty. Afterward, if we can at last agree on what the country should be, I would prefer with work this together. But I don't not mind to seperate if we don't.

I don’t think we expect the French to live under the Canadian constitution, I’m sure France has its own constitution.

I meant french speaking people. Cher zèlé!

Canada is as strong as ever, there is no real threat of Quebec gaining their independence anytime soon, and if they did gain independence that will not weaken Canada by much.

If you think everything is under control, good for you. I don't care. You will see it when it is happening. Your fellows said the very same thing in 1992. They were in total panic in 1995.

Once splitted, both Quebec and Canada will do fine. I think they have mutual advantages to stay united, but I don't insist. We will explain you what we think it should be, we will hear your version too, try negociations and if those fails, then no hard feeling, good luck and glad to be your neighbor.

Whether you beleive me or not, I am telling you, the majority of the sovereignists have no hard feeling against the people of Canada. Maybe toward some of your political leaders but, that's it. Well, we also have our coocoos stuck in the past but, who cares. They are too few to care about them.

Yeah, the NDP will not last long in Quebec, or it will not last long in the ROC.

I think Mulcair will not even be half of what Layton was. They are not impressive so far either. It's still too soon to tell but, I don't have big expections from them at the moment.

I would rather accept Quebec as a fully independent nation and let them live in squalor rather than subjugate the rest of us to the whims of a entitled minority.

If I remove those two words "suqalor, whim", I respect that opinion. You have been told all your life that Quebec is subsided by the rest of the country, it's hard to figure otherwise. The fact that people like me would rather seperate than continue in the status quo, should ring you a bell. It doesn't. too bad! We are better off independents then.

Yes, we want to look out for out interests as well, rather than have the entire nation work and pay taxes in order to satisfy Quebec.

Look, I was not talking about money. I am talking about political structure. You should be aware that the sovereignists do not agree with you at all regarding the money. We rather think we do not get our fair share. Stop trying to convince me we will be the losers to run off the status quo. You will never make your point. We do not swallow that crapt. It will never work on us.

Quebec is a province, and thus has to be equal to other provinces, either Quebec is a province, or Quebec is independent, what people like you want is to keep all the good things Quebec gets from Canada while tossing away all the bad things, and life does not work in such a fashion, you take the good with the bad or not at all.

My explanations deserve a better and less simplistic answer. Stop moving a carrot in front of my face, I'm not a rabbit. We strongly beleive we are better off independent than the status quo. I explained you how the union could work. You don't agree, fine. Don't expect to win any point tho. The proposition I am bringing is not my invention. Many other unions in the world work like that.

It’s not normal for one province to demand superior status to all other provinces you are either a province, or an independent nation, it is one or the other, you cant keep the benefits of being a province and a Canadian citizens, while taking the benefits of being an independent nation.

Wait a minute... we do not want to get the benefit of being a province. We want the benefit to be a state and the duties that go with it at well. It's either we are a province, or a state. We do not want to insult your intelligence by being both whever we see what we profit the most. Even if we try that, it would be a bad strategy. Because at any point in the future, if the federal government says, you wanted to be treatened like a province, then you will be a province, we do not want the supreme court to agree based on precedents (Précédants?). For instence, if we decide to get our share of all federal programs we don't participate in, including equalization, we will never get a surplus even if the maths would have give us one.

We do not want to do this to screw you.

Different languages yes, different nations NO!

I am not, I never been and never will be a canadian as long as the canadian's constitution will belong to english Canada. Get it out of your mind. Since every one here agree and would not sign that thing, it is pretty obvious que nous sommes une nation très différente du Canada anglais.

If the British had tried to “assimilate” Quebec they would have, the British gave more freedoms to Quebec than they gave to the 13 colonies.

Gee! You are talking about the Quebec Act back when the USA was not yet born and no english speaking persons were living in Canada. Before and after that, the french were oppressed.

-1837-38 Rebellions

-1840 Lord Durham's report

-1896 and after Official language Acts in few provinces that lasted until 1989

Until the 60's the french were living an appartheid. The situation changed alot and there are no oppression toward the french in Quebec at the moment. The french outside Quebec, it's another story.

Be a good little province or be an independent nation either way it will work, but what will not work because the ROC will be unsatisfied is to have you as a province and a nation.

I agree with you. If we stay in the union, our status shall be different. I would name that a state rather than a province. Quebec would send less money to Ottawa, just what Ottawa needs to fulfil the programs we are in, get no money back. If Quebec tries to screw you, it will turns out against us anyway. It's not in our interests. Unlike now, the system seems to be favorable to one or another province for political reasons.

Quebec is milking Canada, not the other way around.

No and even if we would, we do not want that. I remember when Chretian was prime minister, he was milking the government for the benefits of his "friends" alot. We did not get that money, his friends did. Not the people. That money is already gone outside of the country in a fiscal paradise. I never touched it and yet, you think I am milking you.

If you think that we want to abuse, then no deal because this is not what we want.

[Signals.Cpl]

Not really. Not any more than Alberta or Nova Scotia oppresses its francophone minority.

How so? Has there been a law that forbids their minorities from seeking office?

How democratic of you. Fascist ideas like this give the sovereigntists validity. They're working within the democratic institutions of this country.

So I'm a fascist because I don’t want to force them to stay? They want to leave and I am all for it, they will suffer more than I or any other real Canadian will.

Ideas like yours are against them.

How so? They want something, and I am happy to give them their desires.

If you want to look at things in black and white terms, and it seems you do, that places you squarely on the side of the bad guys.

No, places me on the side of the good guys, a bad guy would be someone like you, who will use force to keep them in or are you just going to bribe them to stay in this country?

What does France have to do with Québec?

Nothing, he was asking about the French, and I figured that they had absolutely nothing to do with either Canadians or Quebecers.

They share a language, so what? There's lots of other francophone states around the globe. Canadian francophones are Canadians or Québécois, but they are not French nationals.

Then stop calling them French. Quebec has French speaking population but many of you made it perfectly clear when the MND said they were French that he was wrong...

It would be devastating to Canada. Make no mistake about it. Québec has the second highest GDP in the country, behind Ontario. They contribute to roughly 20% of the nation's total GDP.

Yea, yet they seem to take it money from the other provinces.

It's also the second largest revenue generator for the federal government, right behind Ontario.

And yet they get MORE from the Federal government than they give to the federal government.

[Signals.Cpl]

They contribute nearly 20% of federal revenues.

Yet they get much more than they give... I think we can survive without them.

So when you say it will not weaken Canada much, you're exaggerating.

It will not weaken Canada much, what it will do is finally give us a UNITED country rather than Quebec and the ROC with Quebec getting more than their fair share. Quebec is a have not province, they get equalization payments, should they separate they will have to cover more with less, it is simple mathematics.

It will weaken Canada and significantly so, if it were ever to happen.

I think a united Canada makes us stronger rather than weaker.

They may not last long in Québec, but they've been around since the Depression. The NDP isn't going anywhere.

Yeah, but that’s the point, it’s either Quebec or the ROC...that’s what is weakening Canada.

As I mentioned above, Québec contributes to nearly 20% of federal revenues.

and as I mentioned they take more than they contribute...I wonder who will be worse off, Quebec which is leeching off of the other provinces, or the federal government which can now reinvest resources that otherwise would be used to pay off Quebec to keep them in Canada.

They work and pay taxes like everyone else.

Yeah, and they get more from everyone else.

If you want to go down the road of talking about how much in federal taxes a province pays versus what they receive, there is no province in the green other than Alberta.

Yeah, but there is no single province other than Quebec that has such undeserved sense of superiority and one that has been leeching off of the ROC for so long. At different times different provinces take the lead as a productive province, but the constant is that Quebec always takes, take and still wants more.

Every single province receives more than it pays.

So you are a liar now are you? First only Alberta pays more than it receives now no single province pays more than it receives, make up your mind.

That spending isn't for social programs or provincial matters.

Then what is it for? The Equalization payments aren’t to help out the Federal government pay for the Military are they?

This isn't just equalization payments we're talking about.

Why not? They get a lot in Equalization, this means that if they pay 40 billion to the federal government, and receive 53billion from the federal government then should they ever separate they will lose the extra source of income from the other provinces while inheriting their share of the national debt while at the same time adding more expenses in order to be an independent country.

This is for every last thing that the federal government spends money on (ie, military, festivals, aboriginals, postal service, etc.). As long as the federal government runs deficits, it's going to continue spending more money than it takes in. That has nothing to do with the provinces or equalization payments though.

I love your creative math, but before we even get to this point the government of Canada is spending more on Quebec than it is getting from them, then you add this and the difference keeps growing.

Why must posters say "what people like you want" or "what your ilk believes" etc. etc. etc. You're not in people's heads.

Yes you are right, but at the same time he clearly stated his beliefs and his wants.

You don't know what their wants, beliefs, or desires are.

That is until they post them online.

When you say "people like you" or "your ilk," you might as well hang a big sign on your post that says "STRAWMAN STARTS HERE" because you're almost certainly about to paint a picture of what you imagine that person believes or is arguing, rather than what they're actually saying.

His whole post was his beliefs and thoughts, if you cannot, either that or the poster is lying.

In any case, your argument here works to support Québec staying a part of federation.

How so? They want the best of both world and while they are there they want someone else to pay for it.

Federalists want all the good things Québec has to offer without accepting the negatives or at least what federalists would perceive as negatives.

Bullsh*t, federalists want Quebec as a province pulling its weight.

In other words, Québec is entitled to all the same rights as other provinces as far as equalization payments and other things go. You don't want to accept that, but it's ok to collect 20% of federal revenues from them.

I have no problem with them getting equalization payments if they are just another province, my problem arise when they spit in the face of the ROC, tell us how we are screwing them and then demand more money, services, and government contracts than is their fair share all the while trying to be an independent nation. They take the good AND the bad, or they leave. I want the good without the bad but unfortunately I have to live in the real world.

Canada has a federalist arrangement. Each province is independent over its own affairs. They even have their own Crowns. However, I do agree that one province ought not be claiming special status within the federal arrangement. That Québec demands this I believe it says more about that arrangement and how federal powers have encroached on the provinces' powers than it does about Québec though. If they don't feel free enough to manage their own affairs, then certainly the other provinces aren't free enough to manage their own affairs.

Again, this is bullsh*t, if they cared about the rights of the other provinces they would fight for them to get those rights, but then again if every province received those rights, we would essentially become the UN on life-support.

I don't believe this is the case though. I believe Québec is unique and does have a special place both culturally and historically within Canada.

Yes they do, but that does not translate to a place above and beyond the other provinces. What makes them different from say Alberta, Ontario, or Nova Scotia? What makes them more deserving when it comes to provincial powers than the aforementioned provinces?

Actually, as long as the federal government continues running deficits all the other provinces take as well, except Alberta right now. If the price of oil tanks, they will be seriously impacted, since oil sand extraction is an expensive process.

Make up your mind, either it is no province is paying more than receiving or only Alberta is in the black.

What you many people seem to fail to take into account in these arguments is that equalization payments have absolutely nothing to do with what programs a province has or what that province's tax rate is.

What does this have to do with anything? They get more from the federal government; they want to continue doing so while being an independent Nation.

The federal government has a formula for figuring out fiscal capacity based on what the average tax rate across the country should be and the ability of the province to raise that money. They determine equalization payments off that not what the province actually collects or spends.

Irrelevant they still get more than their share.

They tried and realized it was a losing proposition.

As Wild Bill mentioned above, the British did everything within their power to please Quebec, so I fail to see how they tried and failed.

Many American settlers that moved north after the British won this land from the French were actually pushed quite hard for assimilation.

Yes, and yet it did not happen.

The English here were vastly outnumbered despite the number of English immigrants that they tried to persuade to come over. So assimilation wasn't for lack of trying, it was because they faced fierce resistance to it.

Are you Acquainted with Canadian history?

They would have rather had loyal subjects to the British crown than a colony that despised it and resisted everything it tried to do, so they made compromises.

When did they try? From what I remember, right after peace was signed, the British started giving Quebec special privileges.

All the other provinces are supposed to have independence of their own affairs as well. Again, it's a federalist arrangement. It's possible for them to be independent parts of a whole.

So you think that we should all be independent Nations? Dealing with immigration on our own, send our own Olympic teams, deal with international organizations as independent nations?

With the amount they contribute to our GDP and federal revenues, you're wrong about Québec milking Canada. The rest of Canada, however, is also not milking them.

Quebec is milking Canada, they get better services than the rest of Canada, they get more in equalization payments, they get more contracts from federal governments and all the while they are the once being screwed over.

[Benz]

How ignorant of you... first of all it is most definitely not a fascist idea to let sovereigntists leave and form their own nation since that is their whole point. If 45% of Quebecers want to separate so badly I am all for it, carve up a chunk of Quebec and let them go, while the rest, the once who want to stay in Canada can stay a province. I am still wondering how letting sovereigntists get what they want is fascist... or do you have a problem understanding the word fascist?

You are facist because you think you can split our land. You think our land belongs to you and that you granted us the generous gift to let us rent it from your. This is not how it works little boy.

Maybe for you a province is worth nothing and only the federal matter, for us it's the other way around. Our nation, is the people of Québec and we belong to the Québec nation-state.

If you want to take some land away from us, you gonna have to use military and finish the job of 1760. Because your ancestors failed at eliminating us. We survived, we are a nation and we expect no less than the respect. We do not fear pityful frail men like you.

[cybercoma]

How ignorant of you... first of all it is most definitely not a fascist idea to let sovereigntists leave and form their own nation since that is their whole point. If 45% of Quebecers want to separate so badly I am all for it, carve up a chunk of Quebec and let them go, while the rest, the once who want to stay in Canada can stay a province. I am still wondering how letting sovereigntists get what they want is fascist... or do you have a problem understanding the word fascist?

What you said and what I was replying to is that you are "all for kicking a sovereigntist’s out of the country." Now in the quote above you've changed that to the idea that you are all for "letting sovereigntists leave." Kicking them out and letting them leave are two very different things. One can be democratic--the other is not.

[cybercoma]

Until the 60's the french were living an appartheid.

When you say things like this it makes it very hard to give any consideration to your valid arguments.

[cybercoma]

Yea, yet they seem to take it money from the other provinces.

They do not take a dime from other provinces. They are part of confederation and our federal government spends money there. It has nothing to do with other provinces. Provincial income taxes are raised and spent by the provinces themselves. Federal income taxes are raised and spent by the federal government where they see fit to spend it in Canada. Québec is still in Canada, right?

And yet they get MORE from the Federal government than they give to the federal government.

They don't get anything. They send billions of dollars more to the federal government than they receive back in transfer payments. If you're pedantic enough to consider every last time of federal spending (ie, military bases, aboriginal monies, postal services, money, border services, shipping, etc.) then every single province in the country receives more money than the federal government receives from them, except Alberta. That's because the federal government spends more money than it has and has nothing to do with Québec as a province. It has to do with the federal government's responsibilities and what it costs to fulfill them across the country. It is not an envelope full of cash that Québec gets to spend as it pleases. Edited September 6, 2012 by cybercoma

[Benz]

When you say things like this it makes it very hard to give any consideration to your valid arguments.

Well, the word rather applies to a prior period, I admit. Neverthenless, my grand mother told me how it was back then. She is very federalist, afraid of seperation and dislike the word Québécois, she is still, very attached to the name Canadien. When she was young, the french were more proud to use the word Canadien than the english speaking people still not use to it yet. So I don't think she has any biased against Canada.

The french were third citizen class people. Their only model of success was Maurice Richard.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Benz

[cybercoma]

Well, the word rather applies to a prior period, I admit. Neverthenless, my grand mother told me how it was back then. She is very federalist, afraid of seperation and dislike the word Québécois, she is still, very attached to the name Canadien. When she was young, the french were more proud to use the word Canadien than the english speaking people still not use to it yet.

The french were third citizen class people. Their only model of success was Maurice Richard.

Yeah, but a lot of that had to do with the Roman Catholic church and not necessarily federalism. I think the people of Québec exchanged one fight for the other when the first one was finished.

[Wild Bill]

You are facist because you think you can split our land. You think our land belongs to you and that you granted us the generous gift to let us rent it from your. This is not how it works little boy.

Maybe for you a province is worth nothing and only the federal matter, for us it's the other way around. Our nation, is the people of Québec and we belong to the Québec nation-state.

If you want to take some land away from us, you gonna have to use military and finish the job of 1760. Because your ancestors failed at eliminating us. We survived, we are a nation and we expect no less than the respect. We do not fear pityful frail men like you.

TROC doesn't have to split Quebec. Its own people will do it for you! The natives have made it quite clear they are not interested in belonging to a separate Quebec. They think Quebec will still repeat its actions that triggered the Oka protest. They are probably right!

The Eastern Townships have their own feelings on the matter. Also Hull, where a lot of government workers would all lose their jobs. We can't have foreigners working for the government in Ottawa.

So Quebec would have to deal with its own people if it were to separate. If a referendum had a very large majority in favour of leaving the job would be much easier but if it were a close vote it would be a very difficult problem indeed. Surely a new government of an independent Quebec would not want to start off as a dictatorship. Frankly, if they did I would expect violence.

No, TROC would simply sit back, watch, and cut off the money! No EI, no pensions, no equalization - no nothing. Exactly as Pierre Trudeau told the Quebec people during a previous referendum.

Like it or not, Quebec would have to deal with government workers who lost their jobs and communities near the border that did not want to be part of any separation. It would have to handle its own finances and what's more, do it QUICKLY! Ordinary citizens are not able to wait! They have bills to pay and children to feed.

Money talks and BS walks! Patriotism doesn't put food in the belly. It's easy to wave a flag, much harder to maintain an economy. Quebec has already lost a great many jobs as business left down the 401. What do you think will happen if there is a separation? Do you think the Royal Bank will leave its Headquarters in a foreign country? I'm not saying all business will leave, of course. Still, how much will? What will be the impact?

Certainly, this idea that the separatistes keep touting that TROC will be reasonable and "nice" is absolutely absurd! It will be hurt and furious! It will be the worst divorce you can imagine! If Quebec tries to force issues by closing the TransCanada or the Seaway it might indeed come to military action! Separatistes should understand that the moment Quebec is separate they have zero influence in Ottawa, since they no longer will have any seats in Parliament. Any government will have to depend on TROC for getting and staying in power. If they in any way even appear to be giving too much to Quebec in any negotiations they run the risk of being bounced out of office. Do you really think any politician would risk that?

So you are entitled to your opinions but you are a fool if you ignore these factors. If Quebec separates, its biggest problems will be internal, with its own people. Do you really think federalist Quebecers will simply say "Oh well! So it goes! We'll just do what we are told and be quiet!"

Comment veut dire "idealist"? Comment veut dire "dreaming in technicolour"?

[Benz]

Yeah, but a lot of that had to do with the Roman Catholic church and not necessarily federalism. I think the people of Québec exchanged one fight for the other when the first one was finished.

The federalism isn't the guilty. It's like accusing the stick that a policeman use to abuse of it on someone. The elite/establishment, the british authorities and the churches (being catholic wasn't that much of deal) are responsible.

London didn't want to deal with a french rebellion in north america. They had their hands full trying to oppress the Irish in Ireland. So they figured that if they leave alot of controls to the churches, it would calm down the population and keep them in a servant state. They were right, that is what the churches did. They were almost telling the leaders what to do. They were also encouraging the people to go in the country, farm the land, rather than go for the cities, study professional jobs, do business. It was easier for the churches to keep power above ignorants people.

What the british did not expect tho, it's how successful the churches were to rush the people to have big famillies. It's one of the reason why they never succeed to assimilate the french in Québec. They were too many. It was easiser outside Québec.

The wealth of the Québécois was propertionnaly rising at the same speed as the democracy was taking place in Canada. But biggest jump was in the late 70's and 80's. Prior to that, only anglos had high standard jobs, decisional positions and head quaters leadership. Now it's the other way around. The french have taken the place and have no feeling of inferiority now. Well, few still have I guess.

Québec progresses alot but, as long as we are not equal, Québec will still want to progress, in our outside Canada.

You have to take me seriously when I say that even very sovereignists like me have no problem of what-so-ever to talk about a union. What the english canadians are not use to, is the understanding of what Québec is. In our mindset, we are a nation, you are a nation and this union is about partnership between two nations. We want Canada to be like if we are starting it from scratch, not from a british colonialism where we were defeated. Like if we were both already independents and now discussing how to unite. Like the Europeans did as a matter of fact. In a normal Canada, it should be much easier than the Europeans. They are more than 20 different cultures, languages, long histories of independence... we are just two, are already living together... they were fighting against each others in the bloodiest war known to humanity just 60 years ago, the last time we fought was in 1838. And yet... the Europeans are progressing, we are going backward.

The reason is very clear and simple. The mindset of most english canadians is still lying the british heritage where the french must do like the others, a province like the others and not a nation. It leaves the Québécois no other choice to go for sovereignty in first place and then see what's happening afterward. If there is no way to agree on a union, then it's independence. I prefer a real confederation over total independence, but I prefer total independence over the status quo. Some Québécois still would like the anglos to understand them. I am pretty sure few anglos would have no problem with that. But they are the minority in forums and public places. Can it be possible they are the silent majority? It's up to them to prove it to us.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Benz

[Benz]

Its own people will do it for you!

No.

The natives ...

Don't ever pretend you can speak in the name of the natives. They don't give a sh!t about you and me. They have a pretty good deal with us, they are happy, they are receiving the respect and recognition of a nation, something that you never ever did in your history... we will see next time. They don't care if Québec seperates or not. They care about their future.

They think Quebec will still repeat its actions that triggered the Oka protest.

They know they have to blame the federalists for that. They know they have to thank the sovereignists for la Paix des braves.

You have no clue of what you are talking about.

The Eastern Townships have their own feelings on the matter.

Hahahaha! The eastern townships are now 95% french. You are trailing few decades behind. Although alot of them are federalists, none of them would seperate from Québec to join Canada.

Also Hull, where a lot of government workers would all lose their jobs. We can't have foreigners working for the government in Ottawa.

Well from what I see so far, it's the government of Canada that works for the foreigners.

What those bureaucrats do, we will need them to do the same in an independent Quebec. Don't worry about that.

The french in Québec will NEVER choose to seperate from Québec to join Canada. This were you look totally stupid. What does cross your mind? Do you think my cousin will split from me to join you? Do you think my aunt will ask asylum and move to be a refugee in Toronto?

Seperating english Canada from Québec is something natural. Seperating Quebec is against nature. The Québécois are not divided on what they are. We all agree that we are a nation. What we are divided on, is how to achieve the journey. Do we wait the english Canada to understand or do we go on our own way? Of course if we choose to seperate few will be desapointed, but no one will leave families, friends and their own people to join those who are the most responsible of this failure... YOU.

You are totally out of sync with the reality. You are out dated and disrespectful toward yourself by saying such stupidities.

[g_bambino]

You are facist because you think you can split our land. You think our land belongs to you and that you granted us the generous gift to let us rent it from your.

That depends on what you define as "your land". The present boundaries of the province of Quebec were set by the federal parliament in 1912; originally, it was a band along either side of the St. Lawrence, mostly on the north side. Most of Quebec today is First Nations territory, meaning it is Canadian Crown land. So, what is "your land"? The original claim of Jacques Cartier? The territories of New France? Lower Canada?

Maybe for you a province is worth nothing and only the federal matter, for us it's the other way around. Our nation, is the people of Québec and we belong to the Québec nation-state.

So, after barking at someone for so-called arrogance, you arrogantly declare for all people in Quebec what they are and what they want? You should be choking on the irony.

[g_bambino]

Don't ever pretend you can speak in the name of the natives. They don't give a sh!t about you and me. They have a pretty good deal with us...

But you, apparently, can speak for First Nations?

They have no deal with you. They don't even have a deal with the Quebec Crown that doesn't go through Ottawa, since First Nations fall fully within the responsibility of the federal Crown-in-Parliament. Whether any First Nation chooses to go with an independent Quebec will be one hundred percent up to that First Nation. And those that don't, their land - that which is set aside distinctly for them by the Crown - will remain theirs, not the Republic of Quebec's.

[g_bambino]

Wel in Canada, Québec is being kick out officially since april 1982.

False. The government of Quebec didn't agree to some amendments made (or, really, to the absence of certain amendments it wanted) to the existing constitution in 1982; 98% of the constitution remained as it was before 17 April 1982, and most of that was as it was when Canada East - with the approval of its half of the elected legislature of the Province of Canada - agreed to join on in 1867. Amendments made between 1867 and 1982 were agreed to either by the federal parliament, with it's strong representation of Quebecers, alone or by both the federal parliament and the Quebec legislature, depending on what the amendment was.

[Signals.Cpl]

I have no information regarding your fictional imagination.

Oppresed english minority in Quebec... give me a break. Compared to the french in english canada, the english here are in total harmony.

Oppressed? I'm sorry is the ROC planning on introducing laws to treat the french speakers as second rate citizens? In Quebec if they introduce the idiocy they proposed it would be one step away from getting the Anglophones to sit at the back of the bus while at the same time taking their right to vote away...

There are several examples. I'll give you one. For the french, it is unacceptable to bring weapons inside a public school. No matter what religion you are from. In english Canada, you are allowed to bring a weapon to your public school because it says in the constitution that personal religion is above the rules. Few years ago, a singh went up to the supreme court for his case because he lost at the highest court in Québec. Guess what, he won. Now Quebec is forced to spend money on security in public schools so we can allow this kid ti bring its Kirpan with him. It might make sense to you, it doesn't not to us at all. It's ourtageous. Our nation does not beleive that personal religion of an individual is above the law like you do.

So you want to FORCE your beliefs on the majority? Im not entirely sure you understand the concept of democracy... if you need a lesson I would gladly take some time to explain it but just because you didn't get your way does not mean that democracy does not work.

So in 1981, if the english Canada would have not betrayed Québec and would try to negociate like good guys do... either you would have to remove that clause, or make it valid only outside Québec.

What on earth are you going on about? I could make some assumptions but cybercoma might throw a tantrum if I make an assumption... so please enlighten me as to the "betrayal" in question.

Before 1982, there were no precise rules. It was common sense to make sure both nations (called culture by the anglos because they disdained the word nation) are agreing. After april 1982, with the patriation of the constitution from London, the new rule was this one: a change to the constitution requires the approval of 50% of the population + at least 7 provinces out of ten. Since the french are just 25% of Canada and they are in majority only in one province, it means it is no longer required to deal with the opinion of the french to set any further changes. Quebec does still have a since on some matter like the language though, but language is not the only one thing we do care off.

So in your opinion the voice of the French speaking population which is about 25% of the total should be equal to the voice of the majority (the other 75%)? Once again, I think you need to read up on the basic concept of majority rule.

I know and we respected it. The federalists however did not respect their promises and nor they respected the fact that the majority of french speaking people said yes. Instead of finding solutions, they did the other way around. Propagandas, corruptions and sealed the door to solutions.

Once again, democracy rules, just because you didn't get your way does not give you a right to throw a hissy fit. If we were to give Quebec, or any other province such power for that matter it would mean that we would never get any changes because someone will always be on the loosing end and thus veto the change.

No. Because the federalists back then did a lot of promises to the Québécois to make them vote no. None of them have been done.

What you are describing is not a democracy, you want to put francophones at the top of the food chain, not gone happen.

CAQ is not federalist nor sovereignist and this is why no anglos voted for them despite the liberals are totally corrupted. Legault said he doesn't want a referendum because it's not the right time. He also said he doesn't want the defend the federalism and will not be the leader of no side if a referendum occurs. It means that the people who voted CAQ do not belong neither on independence, nor on the status quo. Even among those who voted PLQ. The PLQ is officially against the actual constitution. The difference between them and the PQ is, they beleive we must wait the right time to enter again into endless negociations with Ottawa to renew the constitution. So if we look at the political parties, 0% of the people vote in favor of the status quo. However, the english vote liberal because they beleive it's the best party to fight the PQ. The only people in Quebec that are satisfied with the status quo are the anglos, alot of immigrants and very few french federalists. Moreless 35% of the population. The sovereignists are about the same number. 30% can move to either side.

Obviously more than 50% want to remain as a province in Canada, thus Quebec will remain.

Ok, let's go then. But some of your fellows that did not swallowed the same bullshit as you do, knows it is not in Canada's best interest to break out without at least to try for real this time to get to an agreement. My first priority is to get sovereignty. Afterward, if we can at last agree on what the country should be, I would prefer with work this together. But I don't not mind to seperate if we don't.

No, unfortunately for sovereignists the ROC is tired of all the bullshit that sovereignists pull and if Quebec has another referendum to separate, we just might have a referendum to kick you out. You version of agreement is to tell us how to live, You want 25% of the population to have an equal vote as 75% of the population and that will never happen.

If you think everything is under control, good for you. I don't care. You will see it when it is happening. Your fellows said the very same thing in 1992. They were in total panic in 1995.

See, in 95 the government worked hard to keep the country together, but at this point in time people are sick and tired of the tantrums. Quebec is like the spoiled child that wants everything and threatens to run away if they don't get their way...but that has a shelf life and unfortunately for you, that shelf life is done it has expired and the ROC will not be held hostage by a a group of simple minded fools who have not thought out their plans properly and might one day lead their province in to a disastrous attempt at independence.

Once splitted, both Quebec and Canada will do fine. I think they have mutual advantages to stay united, but I don't insist. We will explain you what we think it should be, we will hear your version too, try negociations and if those fails, then no hard feeling, good luck and glad to be your neighbor.

So you want to split, but stay united... You want a Canadian passport and Canadian currency? Do you want to be protected by the CF all the while you pay no taxes? Would you want the Canadian Government to continue protecting a number Quebec industries? would you want to receive equalization payments? Still be able to work in the federal government? Would you like to still receive preferential treatment when it comes to government contracts?

Whether you beleive me or not, I am telling you, the majority of the sovereignists have no hard feeling against the people of Canada. Maybe toward some of your political leaders but, that's it. Well, we also have our coocoos stuck in the past but, who cares. They are too few to care about them.

I couldn't care less what your feelings are towards the rest of us, what I care about is the things you have done and/or are planning to do. It is simple, Quebec is a province and as such should have no more and no less rights than any other province, or Quebec should be independent, as Canada is to the United States, we may be allies and trading partners but there would be no mixed relationship where one of the provinces is basically an independent nation receiving the benefits of being a province.

I think Mulcair will not even be half of what Layton was. They are not impressive so far either. It's still too soon to tell but, I don't have big expections from them at the moment.

What do you expect? Mulcair as much as I dislike the NDP he will not commit political suicide and destroy the NDP's chances to form a government by becoming the BQ 2.0 because that is what would happen on the first issue that pits ROC v Quebec, if he goes with Quebec he loses support in the ROC right along with the chances of forming a government if he supports the ROC he loses Quebec but keeps chances of being PM alive.

If I remove those two words "suqalor, whim", I respect that opinion. You have been told all your life that Quebec is subsided by the rest of the country, it's hard to figure otherwise. The fact that people like me would rather seperate than continue in the status quo, should ring you a bell. It doesn't. too bad! We are better off independents then.

If the separation should ever happen Anglophones will leave Quebec en masse, suddenly along with the Anglophones so too will go all remaining major corporations that deal with Canada as well as Crown Corporations. Tens of thousands of Federal Employees as well as people who work across the at that point international border will lose their jobs. No protection against competition and select industries like the dairy industry will soon collapse as your markets in the ROC will buy cheaper from the States. Losing the Canadian Citizenship means that Quebec needs to open its own Embassies in many more places than they already have. Add to that having to create a military force that would need to meet the most basic needs of the state and lets not forget a fair share of the National debt and the situation does not look to promising.

Look, I was not talking about money. I am talking about political structure. You should be aware that the sovereignists do not agree with you at all regarding the money. We rather think we do not get our fair share. Stop trying to convince me we will be the losers to run off the status quo. You will never make your point. We do not swallow that crapt. It will never work on us.

I know it will not work on you, seeing as sovereignists do not deal with facts or figures. If Quebec ever separates the reality will settle really quickly when you realize its not always green on the other side.

My explanations deserve a better and less simplistic answer. Stop moving a carrot in front of my face, I'm not a rabbit. We strongly beleive we are better off independent than the status quo. I explained you how the union could work. You don't agree, fine. Don't expect to win any point tho. The proposition I am bringing is not my invention. Many other unions in the world work like that.

Union will not work, it will work for Quebec much better than it would work for the ROC. It comes down to this, either independence or being a province, simple answer is that at the end of the day 3/4 of the population will be better off without Quebec because then politically we would be more united there would be a temporary hit to our economy but in the medium to long term we will be much better off than we are now since now politicians of all stripes pander to Quebec's whims even if it is counter to the interest of the rest of the country.

Wait a minute... we do not want to get the benefit of being a province. We want the benefit to be a state and the duties that go with it at well. It's either we are a province, or a state. We do not want to insult your intelligence by being both whever we see what we profit the most.

What does that mean to you? Would you have your own citizenship and forefeet Canadian Citizenship? Have your military, your own diplomatic core in more than half a dozen countries? Your own currency? Would you take your share of the National debt? What about the anglophones and the francophones who wish to remain part of Canada? Can they separate from Quebec and remain in Canada? What about the natives? If they choose to remain as part of Canada would you let them and their land remain part of Canada? Describe what you envision when you say an independent Quebec?

Even if we try that, it would be a bad strategy. Because at any point in the future, if the federal government says, you wanted to be treatened like a province, then you will be a province, we do not want the supreme court to agree based on precedents (Précédants?). For instence, if we decide to get our share of all federal programs we don't participate in, including equalization, we will never get a surplus even if the maths would have give us one.

What?

We do not want to do this to screw you.

See in essence I am in agreement with you, I say Quebec should gain independents minus the people who want to remain as part of Canada, which means a much smaller piece of land.

I am not, I never been and never will be a canadian as long as the canadian's constitution will belong to english Canada. Get it out of your mind. Since every one here agree and would not sign that thing, it is pretty obvious que nous sommes une nation très différente du Canada anglais.

What makes it a English constitution? The fact that its democratic and thus Majority rules? Or would you like to put the veto power in the hands of all the provinces so that PEI could veto some change that would greatly benefit the rest of Canada but will not benefit them and thus they veto it?Are you prepared to give less than half a percent of the population power to deny changes that would work for the other 99.5% of the country? Or is it just Quebec that should have that power?

Gee! You are talking about the Quebec Act back when the USA was not yet born and no english speaking persons were living in Canada. Before and after that, the french were oppressed.

You must be reading from an alternate history or something.

-1837-38 Rebellions

-1840 Lord Durham's report

-1896 and after Official language Acts in few provinces that lasted until 1989

Until the 60's the french were living an appartheid. The situation changed alot and there are no oppression toward the french in Quebec at the moment. The french outside Quebec, it's another story.

1)What does this prove? Absolutely nothing, well actually that Quebec actively tried to make the US manifest destiny real.

2)Again what does this prove? Some British guy suggested an action that would become damn near a nessesaty about 2 decades later... and to be fair, what did you expect them to do? Close off Canada to new colonists to keep the French speaking population larger? Or did you want them to ask the French to start sending people to a British colony?

3)Cannot make out what you mean there.

I agree with you. If we stay in the union, our status shall be different. I would name that a state rather than a province. Quebec would send less money to Ottawa, just what Ottawa needs to fulfil the programs we are in, get no money back. If Quebec tries to screw you, it will turns out against us anyway. It's not in our interests. Unlike now, the system seems to be favorable to one or another province for political reasons.

But you still would want to benefit from being Canadian, one or the other but a hybrid version will not work.

No and even if we would, we do not want that. I remember when Chretian was prime minister, he was milking the government for the benefits of his "friends" alot. We did not get that money, his friends did. Not the people. That money is already gone outside of the country in a fiscal paradise. I never touched it and yet, you think I am milking you.

To me political corruption is not for this thread, wherever it is and who ever does it it would never benefit the normal people. The politicians at the federal level have been selling out the ROC in favour of Quebec for a long time and will continue to do so until people start showing their displeasure in the voting booths and start kicking them out of office.

If you think that we want to abuse, then no deal because this is not what we want.

What I think is that separatists have naive little plans that should Quebec separate the evils that were brought on by the Anglophones will disappear and Quebec would be a utopia, enjoying the good parts of being part of Canada.

[Signals.Cpl]

You are facist because you think you can split our land. You think our land belongs to you and that you granted us the generous gift to let us rent it from your. This is not how it works little boy.

Maybe for you a province is worth nothing and only the federal matter, for us it's the other way around. Our nation, is the people of Québec and we belong to the Québec nation-state.

If you want to take some land away from us, you gonna have to use military and finish the job of 1760. Because your ancestors failed at eliminating us. We survived, we are a nation and we expect no less than the respect. We do not fear pityful frail men like you.

So wait, you are for Quebec having the right to separate from Canada because 51% of Quebecers say so but you are against people separating from Quebec? You whine and cry about the French speakers who make 24% not having a vote, but what about the 49% of Quebecers who like living in Canada? The once who want to be Canadian? Suddenly the majority getting their wish is great but not when it goes against separatists? Gee you seem really tolerant... You fascist!

[g_bambino]

In Quebec if they introduce the idiocy they proposed it would be one step away from getting the Anglophones to sit at the back of the bus while at the same time taking their right to vote away...

No, just their right to run for public office.

Did nobody see this disturbing piece of propaganda? "Le People Québécois" are apparently all white, all Christian, all Francophone.

[Signals.Cpl]

What you said and what I was replying to is that you are "all for kicking a sovereigntist’s out of the country." Now in the quote above you've changed that to the idea that you are all for "letting sovereigntists leave." Kicking them out and letting them leave are two very different things. One can be democratic--the other is not.

NAh see, we kick them out because they want to leave...I see no problem with that.