"A poor person never gave me a job!"

[Guest Derek L]

An Indian plumber could not afford to live here and work for $15/hour.

Also, as long as living here entitles people to a huge stream of legal and social benefits it is not reasonable to expect unlimited immigration.

But a Filipino slinging coffee at Tim Hortons can?

But I thought “minimizing the cost of living should be priority of Governments”?

Wouldn’t introducing cheaper plumbers, roofers, house cleaners, gardeners etc accomplish that goal?

[bleeding heart]

But a Filipino slinging coffee at Tim Hortons can?

But I thought “minimizing the cost of living should be priority of Governments”?

Wouldn’t introducing cheaper plumbers, roofers, house cleaners, gardeners etc accomplish that goal?

The availability of "cheaper gardeners" would affect a vanishingly small number of Canadians, so would have about zero effect on the economy.

[TimG]

But a Filipino slinging coffee at Tim Hortons can?

You are not hiring a plumber. You are hiring a plumbing company with all of the overhead that goes with that. The plumbing company is not likely paying its trainees much more than $15 today. The cost you pay takes into account all of the additional costs that come with running a company. When I talk about minimizing the cost of living I mean minimizing those costs. You can't solve that problem by simply letting in more immigrants. Edited September 2, 2012 by TimG

[bleeding heart]

For example, how much training does a plumber need vs. a coffee maker? You think you can do the simple stuff yourself but a plumbing company cannot afford to hire people that can only do the simple stuff. They need someone qualified to do the full range of tasks that may come up in a service call. This adds to the average cost of labour.

That's true. And a self-employed plumber could simply not afford to work for those wages, buy and upkeep materials, and run his work vehicle.

[Guest Derek L]

You are not hiring a plumber. You are hiring a plumbing company with all of the overhead that goes with that. The plumbing company is not likely paying its trainees much more than $15 today. The cost you pay takes into account all of the additional costs that come with running a company. When I talk about minimizing the cost of living I mean minimizing those costs. You can't solve that problem by simply letting in more immigrants.

What additional cost are entailed between a plumbing company charging ~$200 an hour versus a landscaping company charging ~$40-60 an hour? They both advertise, they both have to buy and maintain equipment and pay for fuel for their trucks………The difference between the two is the expected cost of labour…………Quite obviously it’s cheaper to train a Canadian teenager how to run a lawnmower or hedge trimmers, then to weld or diagnose a domestic plumbing system, but if one where to hire an already qualified plumber from a third world country…………..

[TimG]

if one where to hire an already qualified plumber from a third world country

Why would any trained plumber work for less than the going rate? Edited September 2, 2012 by TimG

[Guest Derek L]

Why would any trained plumber work for less than the going rate?

What's the going rate in India?

Or why do some doctors (from India) drive taxis (here)?

Edited September 3, 2012 by Derek L

[TimG]

What's the going rate in India?

Who cares? Labour rates are based on supply and demand and the local cost of living. Someone making 8/hour in India would be extremely well off because of the differences in cost of living. If they come here they would demand more if they had skills that allowed them to make such demands. A skilled plumber would be able to make such demands.

Or why do some doctors (from India) drive taxis (here)?

Canada does not automatically accept foreign doctors credentials but it is difficult to get those credentials validated. There are problems with validation system in Canada but it is needed and there will obviously be some foreign doctors who will not meet those requirements. Edited September 3, 2012 by TimG

[Canuckistani]

What's the going rate in India?

Or why do some doctors (from India) drive taxis (here)?

So bring your plugged toilet to India to have it fixed.

Indian docs drive taxis here because they can't get certified. Would you let one operate on you?

We've seen lots of industries where immigrants undercut current prices, often to the detriment of quality because they do things to 3rd world standards. No thanks.

[Guest Derek L]

Who cares? Labour rates are based on supply and demand and the local cost of living. Someone making 8/hour in India would be extremely well off because of the differences in cost of living. If they come here they would demand more if they had skills that allowed them to make such demands. A skilled plumber would be able to make such demands.

Exactly my point….supply and demand………We allow more plumbers, roofers etc into Canada, the costing will naturally go down.

Canada does not automatically accept foreign doctors credentials but it is difficult to get those credentials validated. There are problems with validation system in Canada but it is needed and there will obviously be some foreign doctors who will not meet those requirements.

And why is it difficult? Surely plumbing and the human body work the same in India or China.

[Guest Derek L]

So bring your plugged toilet to India to have it fixed.

Indian docs drive taxis here because they can't get certified. Would you let one operate on you?

We've seen lots of industries where immigrants undercut current prices, often to the detriment of quality because they do things to 3rd world standards. No thanks.

My wife is an African educated & trained dentist and I allow her fix my children’s and my own teeth….Does that count?

As I said to Tim, a trained professional from India or China should be just as capable to unplug my toilet or fix my roof (Or treat me when I’m sick) as a Canadian born professional can…….By that measure, if we introduce more foreign trained professional, thus increasing the supply in comparison to today’s levels, naturally shouldn’t the price drop?

[TimG]

Exactly my point….supply and demand………We allow more plumbers, roofers etc into Canada, the costing will naturally go down.

Well skilled trades on the list of occupations that will get you admitted to Canada quickly so the relative shortage of plumbers is not going to be solved by that. The issue is it takes training and training takes money and time. This creates a barrier to entry. You are not going to get cheap plumbers by trying to flood the market with foreign trained professionals. If you want lower costs you have to do it yourself.

And why is it difficult? Surely plumbing and the human body work the same in India or China.

It is more a question of time and money. Foreign doctors must complete a residency at a Canadian hospital where their skills are evaluated. The trouble is there are only so many government funded spaces available and they tend to go the doctors graduating from Canadian universities. It don't think it is reasonable to allow foreign doctors to practice in Canada without some practical evaluation of their skills. If changes need to be made it is with the funding formula that limits spaces available to foreign trained professionals (i.e. any foreign trained doctor should be automatically funded for a residency when their immigration application is accepted). Edited September 3, 2012 by TimG

[dre]

As I said to Tim, a trained professional from India or China should be just as capable to unplug my toilet or fix my roof (Or treat me when I’m sick) as a Canadian born professional can…….By that measure, if we introduce more foreign trained professional, thus increasing the supply in comparison to today’s levels, naturally shouldn’t the price drop?

Yup. PRices will drop, wages will drop, tax revenues will drop, and our ability to be a first world nation will drop.

Edited September 3, 2012 by dre

[Wild Bill]

Yup. PRices will drop, wages will drop, tax revenues will drop, and our ability to be a first world nation will drop.

Once again I'm a bit confused, Dr. Dre! Is it a corollary of your argument that the way to improve our standard of living is to kite all our prices and wages as high as possible?

[eyeball]

Once again I'm a bit confused, Dr. Dre! Is it a corollary of your argument that the way to improve our standard of living is to kite all our prices and wages as high as possible?

Would you doubt this corollary yourself when the trickle down theory of economics is applied to our society?

[Guest Derek L]

Well skilled trades on the list of occupations that will get you admitted to Canada quickly so the relative shortage of plumbers is not going to be solved by that. The issue is it takes training and training takes money and time. This creates a barrier to entry. You are not going to get cheap plumbers by trying to flood the market with foreign trained professionals. If you want lower costs you have to do it yourself.

Sure you can, we aloud various trades in to meet the shortage coming up to the Olympic building boom………Instead of work visas, offer permanent residency.

It is more a question of time and money. Foreign doctors must complete a residency at a Canadian hospital where their skills are evaluated. The trouble is there are only so many government funded spaces available and they tend to go the doctors graduating from Canadian universities. It don't think it is reasonable to allow foreign doctors to practice in Canada without some practical evaluation of their skills. If changes need to be made it is with the funding formula that limits spaces available to foreign trained professionals (i.e. any foreign trained doctor should be automatically funded for a residency when their immigration application is accepted).

You cite safety concerns on the part of the government and lack of funding, but in reality, accreditation is given through the various professional bodies, whose interest it is to keep the demand up, thus increasing wages artificially…………..It took my wife years to receive accreditation in Canada, but in that timeframe she was deemed fit to practice (dentistry) by both MSF and the Texas State board of dental examiners, in both cases, accreditation was received within several months of applying………..

[Guest Derek L]

Yup. PRices will drop, wages will drop, tax revenues will drop, and our ability to be a first world nation will drop.

As Bill said, you advocate increasing prices and wages unnaturally to improve our standard of living?

[kimmy]

What the average American voter needs is a competitive advantage that allows companies that employ workers in the US to sell products abroad and compete against imports. There are many ways to get achieve this goal (lower taxes are only one). However, if a politician does not put developing this competitive advantage as the top priority then the politician is working against the best interests of the American voter.

I don't think I took an adequate look at this yesterday.

* "allows companies that employ workers in the US"

We ought to consider what those companies actually produce, and whether a tax cut is going to really help them. During the primaries Senator Santorum was talking about the Rust Belt and how his ideas would get working-class Americans back to work. The promise seemed to be that with just the right tax cuts or trade policies, those Rust Belt factories would spring back to life. Is that realistic?

* "to sell products abroad"

What products can America sell abroad?

Some American products sell extremely well abroad. You mentioned movies and TV, for example. Those are two products that rely on American creativity. There are lots of other examples of products designed using American creativity that are immensely popular all over the world. American-designed electronics and computer software and clothing and cars. Unfortunately, the creativity part of the process doesn't put Rust Belt factory workers back to work, and the manufacturing part of the process is much more cost-effective to do elswhere.

What American products won't sell abroad? Anything that requires no brainpower and cheap labor. No amount of tax cuts or trade policy is going to make it economically viable for an American textiles company to sell their tube-socks in China.

* "and compete against imports"

We also need to talk more about what that actually means. Do you want a textile-mill in Alabama to be able to produce a T-shirt just as cheaply as one in Bangladesh can? Or do you want the T-shirt made in Bangladesh to cost just as much as the one made in Alabama when it reaches the department store check-out?

The second could easily be accomplished with tariffs, of course, but that's bad for consumers.

The first might not be possible at all no matter how much you cut taxes. Cut taxes to zero and it still costs more to produce the T-shirt in Alabama than in Bangladesh, and we have to keep looking for more ways to make that T-shirt cheaper... cut wages, subsidize the factory... and at some point you have to ask yourself: why do we want to try and compete with Bangladesh at making T-shirts at all?

But that's the hope that's being offered... give corporations the right tax-cuts, and American factories will spring to life again, bring back all those jobs that got lost when making stuff overseas became the cost-effective way to run a business. But it's a false hope. It's not realistic.

-k

[dre]

Once again I'm a bit confused, Dr. Dre! Is it a corollary of your argument that the way to improve our standard of living is to kite all our prices and wages as high as possible?

Yes in general standard of living goes up when wages increase. THeres a problem with the idea that its good to reduce wages and prices. On the surface it seems ok... "I only make 15 bux an hour but a DVD player is only 20 bux!". The problem is that many of the most important goods dont get reduced in price by the reduction of wages. So our 15 dollar per hour worker can buy a whole lot of DVD players and big screen TV, but he cant buy very much gas, he cant buy home heating oil, and he cant buy much electricity... he also cant buy much real food (meat, vegetables, etc). And further more when you talk about reduction of wages through trade certain industries will be able to isolate themselves from global competition so their wages will increase in relation to everyone elses. So our 15 dollar per hour worker, with his wealth of gadgets and non durables, cant afford to go to the doctor, and he cant afford to go to the dentist, and he cant afford to send his kids to college either.

Edited September 3, 2012 by dre

[dre]

As Bill said, you advocate increasing prices and wages unnaturally to improve our standard of living?

No idea what you are on about here. Where did I advocate "unnaturally increasing prices and wages"? Thats a complete fabrication... I guess we are at LEAST competitive in the bullshit manufacturing sector

[Guest Derek L]

No idea what you are on about here. Where did I advocate "unnaturally increasing prices and wages"? Thats a complete fabrication... I guess we are at LEAST competitive in the bullshit manufacturing sector

No, I fully admit it’s an assumption on my part, in that your statement:

Yup. PRices will drop, wages will drop, tax revenues will drop, and our ability to be a first world nation will drop.

Alluded to such proposed actions (increased immigration of skilled workers) would = bad stuff for Canada

Naturally, wouldn’t the opposite = good stuff for Canada?

[Wild Bill]

But that's the hope that's being offered... give corporations the right tax-cuts, and American factories will spring to life again, bring back all those jobs that got lost when making stuff overseas became the cost-effective way to run a business. But it's a false hope. It's not realistic.

-k

Maybe a false hope kimmy but I wouldn't say totally unrealistic. I watched the trend to move production offshore happening all around me through the 80's and 90's and one thing was obvious - a lot of production was moved that DIDN'T result in competitive savings! In fact, many times the actual total costs went up!

What you have to understand is that many North American managers are simply...boneheads! They moved production not because they understood and evaluated all the factors to do with their costing and competitiveness but just because they saw so many other companies doing it!

Total cost is a concept that many managers don't understand. They might see the production line cost of a product but fail to include the shipping cost if the production was moved offshore. The new worker might get a lower hourly wage but his scrap rate might be far higher. I myself worked as a buyer where my only yardstick was my purchased component cost. I could buy for the lowest cost from an unreliable source who consistently let us down on deliveries, stopping our production line and costing us hundreds of thousands of dollars. For having the lowest cost, I looked like a good buyer. If I paid a little bit more for reliable delivery, keeping the production line from stopping, I would (and did!) face a reprimand!

It is simply not true that EVERYTHING is cheaper to make offshore! It's just that many managers don't have the wit to tell one thing from another!

That is why we are finally seeing at least a few products coming back to be produced domestically.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Wild Bill

[dre]

What you have to understand is that many North American managers are simply...boneheads!

Management can be offshored too! North Americans can be replaced with proper asian managers

[Wild Bill]

Management can be offshored too! North Americans can be replaced with proper asian managers

Many a true word spoken in jest, Dr. Dre!

:P

[dre]

You are right though WB... Not all manufacturing jobs make sense to offshore, and eventually NONE of them will.

All this production is coming back. A lot of people think that all this trade is part of a permanent sea change in the way the global economy works, but its not. Its a temporary trend that is only possible because of an imbalance between currencies.

I mean think about it... When most people talk about "globalism" most of them are talking about the explosion in trade between the west and east, or between the first world and the developing world.

How long do you really think its possible for massive ammounts of real goods to flow in one direction, with nothing but bits of paper and electronic currency flowing in the other? It cant go on forever because eventually they wont be interested in our bits of paper anymore. In fact, the only reason its gone on for this long is because countries like China simply lend all the money we pay for goods back to us so that we can spend it again. Trust me its not a coincidence that debt levels exploded in every single developed nation as soon as they started offshoring production.

All of this trade is going end. In the not to distant future productive nations will SCOFF at the idea of trading the fruits of their labor for western currency. And when the song is over we will be sitting on a massive mountain of debt, wondering what the hell happened, and trying to figure out how to make our own stuff again.

Globalism as a trend will be completely reversed, and you will see a trend towards LOCALISM. There wont much global trade in consumer goods simply because once wages are the same in China as they are here, imported goods will cost more... by exactly the ammount it cost to ship them. Most of the things you consume will be made within a few hundred miles of where you live, or at most a thousand or so.

Edited September 4, 2012 by dre