And the World (the Ummah That Is) Looks Just the Same...

[GostHacked]

I get it now. The only time a country is "liberated" is when they're taken over by some totalitarian force that is currently politically popular?

You have to provide context to prove that Israel was under some kind of occupation in order to be liberated, when in fact it did not exist (in the modern sense as we understand it now)before 1948. If you want to talk ANCIENT Israel, then you might have a point. But it's strange that me a person critical of Israel has to point this out to you.

So, how was Israel liberated? Why was it liberated. Come on jbg, you are not getting off this hook that easily.

[bud]

Come on jbg, you are not getting off this hook that easily.

when he makes a mistake or deliberately lies and he has to reply to questions about this mistake, he gets himself off the hook by not responding.

there are threads after thread where he has failed to respond to points made towards his half-truths and misinformation.

this is jbg for you. the drive by misinformation poster.

[jbg]

So, how was Israel liberated? Why was it liberated. Come on jbg, you are not getting off this hook that easily.

when he makes a mistake or deliberately lies and he has to reply to questions about this mistake, he gets himself off the hook by not responding.

Bud, I've had enough of your BS to last a lifetime. I enjoy the board but have a life outside. I practice law about 50 hours a week. I have a wife and two high-school age children. I do not sit poised to respond to your remarks.

As far as GostHacked's comment, the same would apply if somehow the Palestine Liberation Organization had "succeeded". There was never an independent Palestine, or Palestinian people. Your remark was too sweet not to make a shot at.

As far as Israel's being liberated, we as Jews had undergone millenia of subjugation, prejudice, and outright genocide. If the creation of Israel was not an act of liberation I don't know what is.

there are threads after thread where he has failed to respond to points made towards his half-truths and misinformation.

this is jbg for you. the drive by misinformation poster.

As in your response on this thread (link).

[bud]

Bud, I've had enough of your BS to last a lifetime. I enjoy the board but have a life outside. I practice law about 50 hours a week.

if you are a man of law, then why do you have such a hard time accepting that israel was not liberated, but created. there never was a state of israel before it was created in 1948. majority of the people who migrated to palestine were european jews whose only connection to the land were biblical.

[wyly]

As far as GostHacked's comment, the same would apply if somehow the Palestine Liberation Organization had "succeeded". There was never an independent Palestine, or Palestinian people. Your remark was too sweet not to make a shot at.

history according to zionism and the hasbara no doubt, the name Palestine has been around 2000-2500 yrs...it's even mention in the bible so ya it's absolutely confirmed and logic would assume the inhabitants of an region known as Palestine would be Palestinians...ethnically cleansing the region of those people doesn't erase them from history...

[GostHacked]

Bud, I've had enough of your BS to last a lifetime. I enjoy the board but have a life outside. I practice law about 50 hours a week. I have a wife and two high-school age children. I do not sit poised to respond to your remarks.

But if you are going to make asinine statements, then you can be sure to be called out on them. And please respond at your convenience.

As far as GostHacked's comment, the same would apply if somehow the Palestine Liberation Organization had "succeeded". There was never an independent Palestine, or Palestinian people. Your remark was too sweet not to make a shot at.

I recall it being the "Palestinian Mandate" not the "Isreali Mandate'. And the Balfour Declaration was nothing more than a document that was never implemented.

As far as Israel's being liberated, we as Jews had undergone millenia of subjugation, prejudice, and outright genocide. If the creation of Israel was not an act of liberation I don't know what is.

Sounds like sore losers of centuries past. And now when that claim is made about Palestine and the Arabs in general they are told to suck it up because they lost the war. Can you get anymore hypocritical than that?

Are jews that vengeful? That's quite the grudge to keep over millenia.

[Canuckistani]

The Jews liberated Israel from the Canaanites. So 1948 was a re-liberation I guess.

[Argus]

You have to provide context to prove that Israel was under some kind of occupation in order to be liberated, when in fact it did not exist (in the modern sense as we understand it now)before 1948. If you want to talk ANCIENT Israel, then you might have a point. But it's strange that me a person critical of Israel has to point this out to you.

So, how was Israel liberated? Why was it liberated. Come on jbg, you are not getting off this hook that easily.

I'm not sure where the confusion is here. Israel, unlike Palestine, was a self-ruling nation in the past, until conquered. It was ruled by the Persians and Romans and then Muslims until 1948. Now you can say it was 'created', but then again what was the war of independence about?

By the way, during that war, Jordan annexed a big junk of the West Bank, and Egypt annexed the Gaza strip. So shouldn't there be a lot of violent agitating for them to give the territory back to the 'Palestinians'?

[GostHacked]

I'm not sure where the confusion is here. Israel, unlike Palestine, was a self-ruling nation in the past, until conquered.

Define nation? And since it was conquered, the spoils go to the victors. I guess that goes to the Jews. But I always make the argument that if the Jews were once again pushed out, are they going to cry foul or accept their lumps? Sure it's not an easy thing to understand historically. I don't have all the info and much I still don't understand.

It was ruled by the Persians and Romans and then Muslims until 1948. Now you can say it was 'created', but then again what was the war of independence about?

The Palestinian Mandate was a British controlled entity up until the modern inception of Israel in 1948 where borders were drawn up.

By the way, during that war, Jordan annexed a big junk of the West Bank, and Egypt annexed the Gaza strip. So shouldn't there be a lot of violent agitating for them to give the territory back to the 'Palestinians'?

Good questions, and I am not sure I have the answers for that.

[jbg]

if you are a man of law, then why do you have such a hard time accepting that israel was not liberated, but created. there never was a state of israel before it was created in 1948. majority of the people who migrated to palestine were european jews whose only connection to the land were biblical.

Hair splitting supreme.

[bud]

Israel, unlike Palestine, was a self-ruling nation in the past, until conquered. It was ruled by the Persians and Romans and then Muslims until 1948. Now you can say it was 'created', but then again what was the war of independence about?

buddy. what are you smoking? israel never existed before 1948.

the canaanites were the first group of people to inhabit the land which has been called many names. most notably palestine. archaeologists and historian of the region, refer to the field of study as syro-palestinian.

after the cannanites, the egyptians took power. after that, the philistines arrived and some settled in the region.

so wtf are you guys talking about? there was never a country or nation or state of israel before 1948. how can you sit there and lie and pass misinformation?

[jbg]

buddy. what are you smoking? israel never existed before 1948.

the canaanites were the first group of people to inhabit the land which has been called many names. most notably palestine. archaeologists and historian of the region, refer to the field of study as syro-palestinian.

after the cannanites, the egyptians took power. after that, the philistines arrived and some settled in the region.

so wtf are you guys talking about? there was never a country or nation or state of israel before 1948. how can you sit there and lie and pass misinformation?

So anyone but Jews have legitimate claims to the land?

[bud]

So anyone but Jews have legitimate claims to the land?

seriously? this is what you got out of the history lesson? who said that anyone but jews have legitimate claims to the land?

the history lesson was given to you to show you how ridiculous you sound when you keep trying to tell us that 'israel was liberated'. like israel as a country existed before and that the land belongs to 'israelis' and only israelis.

here is more history lesson: the population of jews in palestine, before the mass zionist immigration from europe was less than 10%. it happened that the jews in palestine lived peacefully side by side with the muslim arabs and christians arabs. beyond the biblical stories, the jews who migrated to israel did not have any connection with palestine.

[wyly]

By the way, during that war, Jordan annexed a big junk of the West Bank, and Egypt annexed the Gaza strip. So shouldn't there be a lot of violent agitating for them to give the territory back to the 'Palestinians'?

Good questions, and I am not sure I have the answers for that.

the region was only very briefly controlled by the british, for centuries it was part of the Ottoman empire(Turkish)....the british gave it to the Bedouin kingdom of Jordan so jordan's claim was more legitimate than Israel's....egypt's historical claim to gaza are equal to israel's

but it's all irrelevant as Jordan and eygpt gave up all claims to the west bank and gaza, both recognize the territory as Palestinian since 1988...

and I keep seeing a constant deflection throughout various threads of Israel vs the "muslims" or "arabs", this a zionist game to gain pity..."look at us poor jews we're outnumbered by those muslim arabs", they lump everyone who is a muslim or speaks arabic into one people, it's bull shitte..

Turks are muslims but arab and do not speak arabic, Jordanians speak arabic and may be muslim but they're predominately beduin and circassians with a large number of palestinian refugees(jordan is not arab)...eygptians speak arabic and are predominately muslim but they are not arabs....speaking arabic does not make you an arab, no more than speaking english makes you english, or that being christian makes you a citizen of any particular country...arabic was widely spoken in the middle east because of taxation, non arabic speaking regions conquered bu islamic forces during the religious expansion were taxed, by speaking arabic taxation was avoided...

Edited September 6, 2012 by wyly

[Bonam]

here is more history lesson: the population of jews in palestine, before the mass zionist immigration from europe was less than 10%. it happened that the jews in palestine lived peacefully side by side with the muslim arabs and christians arabs.

You mean besides the massacres and pogroms of Jews by their friendly Arab neighbours?

[Canuckistani]

By the way, during that war, Jordan annexed a big junk of the West Bank, and Egypt annexed the Gaza strip. So shouldn't there be a lot of violent agitating for them to give the territory back to the 'Palestinians'?

Agitate for what, the West Bank and Gaza are back in Palestinian hands. At least the parts the settlers haven't taken.

[Canuckistani]

and I keep seeing a constant deflection throughout various threads of Israel vs the "muslims" or "arabs", this a zionist game to gain pity..."look at us poor jews we're outnumbered by those muslim arabs", they lump everyone who is a muslim or speaks arabic into one people, it's bull shitte..

I guess I'm too indoctrinated to notice that. What's funny is that the people using those terms here fly off the handle if you conflate Jews and Israel.

[GostHacked]

You mean besides the massacres and pogroms of Jews by their friendly Arab neighbours?

Why do we focus on the Arabs so much when Jews were persecuted in Russia, Germany, other parts of Europe?

[bud]

Why do we focus on the Arabs so much when Jews were persecuted in Russia, Germany, other parts of Europe?

bonam is right that there were persecution in some arab countries before the mass zionist migration to palestine in the early 1900s. however, this doesn't justify forcefully taking land in palestine just like it doesn't justify forcefully taking land in palestine because of what happened to the jews in europe.

Edited September 6, 2012 by bud

[Guest American Woman]

So anyone but Jews have legitimate claims to the land?

How does the ancient Kingdom of Israel tie into present day Israel if Israel didn't exist prior to 1948?

[wyly]

bonam is right that there were persecution in some arab countries before the mass zionist migration to palestine in the early 1900s. however, this doesn't justify forcefully taking land in palestine just like it doesn't justify forcefully taking land in palestine because of what happened to the jews in europe.

persecution happened everywhere and to everyone, minorities always got picked on jews weren't alone...the mass exodus of jews from islamic countries never began until after the expulsion of the palestinians by the zionists...why is anyone surprised that muslims would act harshly toward jews in islamic lands after zionists began the ethnic cleasning of palestinians...the zionists had started a holy war against palestinian muslims with the approval and support of western christian states, it was the beginning of another crusade in the holy lands...

[Bonam]

persecution happened everywhere and to everyone, minorities always got picked on jews weren't alone...the mass exodus of jews from islamic countries never began until after the expulsion of the palestinians by the zionists...why is anyone surprised that muslims would act harshly toward jews in islamic lands after zionists began the ethnic cleasning of palestinians..

Interesting question. Note that you implicitly state here that these Muslim states implemented collective punishment on Jews who had no influence or participation in the events you accuse the "zionists" of doing. You state here that murdering, removing, and ethnically cleansing Jews in your nation is to be expected if somewhere else around the world some other Jews do something you don't like.

Should we apply the same logic to how we deal with Muslims? Should we drive out and murder all the Muslims in Canada because somewhere else around the world some Muslims did something we didn't like? Would that be expected, unsurprising? No? Why is this behavior expected of Muslims, but not of Canadians?

Your defense of the collective punishment and ethnic cleansing of Jews from vast swathes of the world in response to events those individuals had no participation in is nothing but blatant antisemitism.

[Bonam]

bonam is right that there were persecution in some arab countries before the mass zionist migration to palestine in the early 1900s. however, this doesn't justify forcefully taking land in palestine just like it doesn't justify forcefully taking land in palestine because of what happened to the jews in europe.

I was not trying to "justify" anything. Your claim was that Arabs and Jews lived "lived peacefully side by side" in Palestine prior to "mass zionist immigration". The point of my post was to show that you were factually incorrect, as you almost always are when speaking about the Arab-Israeli conflict.

[bud]

I was not trying to "justify" anything. Your claim was that Arabs and Jews lived "lived peacefully side by side" in Palestine prior to "mass zionist immigration". The point of my post was to show that you were factually incorrect, as you almost always are when speaking about the Arab-Israeli conflict.

my comment was correct. the jews in palestine did live peacefully with the arabs in palestine. what happened in other countries and areas in the past is not a fault of the palestinians who were forced to give up most of their land so that european jews could move in.

if you're looking for facts, i recommend asking those jews (the real descendants of prophet jacob) who lived peacefully with the arabs for thousand of years in palestine until the advent of zionism where the jews of europe(mostly khazars) migrated to the region and began terrorizing and displacing civilian palestinians from their own homes.

[Rue]

I guess I'm too indoctrinated to notice that. What's funny is that the people using those terms here fly off the handle if you conflate Jews and Israel.

Boo! I am watching. Heaven forbid someone should call all Arabs or Muslims terrorists right?

pssst, do you think all Arabs/Muslims are anti Israel?

You want to use ethnic generalities I will challenge you same reason you would if it was done

against you.

Now get back to the subject you were debating you don't really want me ranting again do you?

Boo again!