Enbridge & Churchill Falls

[blueblood]

yup... it's such a "blueblood good idea"... that you won't touch the challenge to speak to the practicalities of your "good idea". Or accept/realize the NWT Premier's early 'enthusiasm' has somewhat dampened, hey? Wonder why, hey?... since it's such a "blueblood good idea"... a "blueblood no brainer"!

is this you... "stepping it up"?

How has it dampened, a google search shows articles stating his full support. But then you think an improved economy and jobs are a bad idea.

But since that allows other people to make money other than waldos parents to bankroll waldos environmental crusade that just wouldn't do now wouldn't it.

[blueblood]

about those practicalities of both the pipeline and tanker routes... the practicalities you simply refuse to address/engage upon. Is there a problem you won't... you can't... speak to those practical aspects, hey?

If the chinese can build the three gorges dam and alter river flows, I'm pretty sure we can build a pipeline north and ship oil to china. And not to worry about spills, enbridge has been well practiced in spill cleanup.

But then people other than waldos parents would have money and that wouldn't do for poor waldo.

[waldo]

How has it dampened, a google search shows articles stating his full support. But then you think an improved economy and jobs are a bad idea.

how dated/current are they?

But since that allows other people to make money other than waldos parents to bankroll waldos environmental crusade that just wouldn't do now wouldn't it.

how old are you - really? When you're clearly out of your element, like this, do you always revert to juvenile taunts over "parents"... "parents driving"... "parents basement". Is it more of defensive mechanism that comes out in you - perhaps when you're flustered, when you can't articulate your thoughts, or you have no thoughts... when you actually have no argument? Is that it?

[August1991]

If the chinese can build the three gorges dam and alter river flows, I'm pretty sure we can build a pipeline north and ship oil to china. And not to worry about spills, enbridge has been well practiced in spill cleanup.

We can build the pipeline, and even manage any spills.

The question is who benefits from the oil sold to market: the owner of the oil, or the owner of the delivery to market.

[waldo]

...enbridge has been well practiced in spill cleanup.

yes... yes Enbridge is well versed in spills! But, apparently, you're like most of the "champions" out there... you limit your skewed narrow view of the project to "pipeline" only... ever forgetting about that ocean thingee - those tankers. I suggest you fire up a googly and come back with results on ocean clean-up for a raw-bitumen spill. What's that... you can't find anything? What's that... you say there's no technical capabilities to actually clean-up the bitumen... that sinks to the ocean floor! No biggee, hey?

But then people other than waldos parents would have money and that wouldn't do for poor waldo.

I'm quite content to simply quote your continued juvenile taunts - have at er!

[TimG]

Except I'm a politician in a democracy and I have to raise tax revenues.

Politicians are always tempted by short sighted policies that allow them to get something now but leave for people in the future to pay the price. That does not make it right or sensible.

I think that the BNA Act contradicts you.

I don't think it does. Christy Clark acknowledged that BC can't stop the pipeline but it could use its regulatory power to delay it. If it went to court BC would likely loose.

Also: what would happen to BC ports if Alberta blocked trains? Why you ignore the obvious consequences of such moves on the part of BC?

TimG, that's the demagogue's version of a trade war. In fact, a trade war is: "I'll stop hitting my kids when you stop hitting yours."

It is reality. Only really stupid people impose tariffs without considering what the implications would be if others did the same thing to them. Trade wars happen when irresponsible demagogues think they can bully their neighbours without their neighbours responding in kind.

Please tell me why Alberta should not block trains to BC ports if BC blocks Alberta oil? After all it would be perfectly justifiable given your logic.

[Newfoundlander]

You questioned the comparison and then you made it.

Alberta is asking BC to allow transport of its oil. Just like Newfoundland asked Quebec to transport its electricity.

Hence my "huh?"

Newfoundlander, the people of Newfoundland have never quite understood that Churchill Falls is in Labrador, on the dark side of the moon. It's a wonderful resource but without access to a market, it is just water between glacial rocks. The key resource, worthy of market return, is not the glacial rock formation but access to market. Quebec owns the key resource, not Newfoundland.

Thanks to Obama, the BC government is now in effect saying the same to the Alberta government.

My point is BC is talking about not letting a pipeline travel from Alberta through BC, just like Charest won't allow cables from NL travel through Quebec for the Lower Churchill. Quebec eventually allowed power cables from the Upper Churchill to go through their province, except they decided after a deal was negotitated and construction had started that they wanted to renegotiate and a second contract along with the first one. Due to Brinco's financial situation, which Hydro Quebec had insider knowledge on, they basically had no choice but to sign whatever.

[punked]

My point is BC is talking about not letting a pipeline travel from Alberta through BC, just like Charest won't allow cables from NL travel through Quebec for the Lower Churchill. Quebec eventually allowed power cables from the Upper Churchill to go through their province, except they decided after a deal was negotitated and construction had started that they wanted to renegotiate and a second contract along with the first one. Due to Brinco's financial situation, which Hydro Quebec had insider knowledge on, they basically had no choice but to sign whatever.

I don't think power lines and oil pipelines are the same thing. One does no harm the other if it breaks does lots of harm to a province.

[Newfoundlander]

I don't think power lines and oil pipelines are the same thing. One does no harm the other if it breaks does lots of harm to a province.

A little different with regards to that, Muskrat Falls is more beneficial for Canada IMO. However, BC and Quebec are still using their geography to disadvantage other provinces.

[punked]

A little different with regards to that, Muskrat Falls is more beneficial for Canada IMO. However, BC and Quebec are still using their geography to disadvantage other provinces.

Quebec really gave you guys a shitty deal on all the Church Hill power stuff. I do however think both Quebec and BC should be given some cut of royalties (Not as much they want they really are doing very little) but some percentage number for the use of their land. I don't think that is out of reason. Cooler heads need to prevail.

[Newfoundlander]

Quebec really gave you guys a shitty deal on all the Church Hill power stuff. I do however think both Quebec and BC should be given some cut of royalties (Not as much they want they really are doing very little) but some percentage number for the use of their land. I don't think that is out of reason. Cooler heads need to prevail.

Newfoundland and Labrador is willing to pay Wuebec for the use of their power lines, and proposed building new lines but that would effect the monopoly Hydro Quebec is trying to secure with regards to hydro power. Hopefully Quebec will leave Canada soon!

[punked]

Newfoundland and Labrador is willing to pay Wuebec for the use of their power lines, and proposed building new lines but that would effect the monopoly Hydro Quebec is trying to secure with regards to hydro power. Hopefully Quebec will leave Canada soon!

You guys are building an underwater cable to NS so you can run your power through there right? Seems like a good idea.

[Newfoundlander]

You guys are building an underwater cable to NS so you can run your power through there right? Seems like a good idea.

Except it costs a fortune and it won't provide energy to Ontario who wanted it.

[punked]

Except it costs a fortune and it won't provide energy to Ontario who wanted it.

That sucks but you could then sell it to the states who will give you way more per kilowait hour then Ontario would right?

[Wild Bill]

Except I'm a politician in a democracy and I have to raise tax revenues. Guess how I choose to finance the budget. 1) I can tax my voters. 2) I can tax stuff travelling through my country that my voters don't see/buy/care about.

August, you seem to have ignored my earlier point that the animosity towards Quebec over the Churchill Falls deal had nothing to do with charging for transportation but rather for Quebec getting 95 cents of every dollar, leaving Newfoundland only a nickel, for decades and decades!

I would appreciate an answer. Your silence is damning!

Also, in our previous thread on this subject you railed against Newfoundland choosing to lay an underwater cable into Nova Scotia to reach the US market that way. Is it not good business to ignore Quebec if it is not competitive?

From the tone of your arguments in this thread and others you seem to come across as a "laissez-faire" capitalist except where your own province is concerned!

[Newfoundlander]

That sucks but you could then sell it to the states who will give you way more per kilowait hour then Ontario would right?

Probably not. The Ontario market seems to be more secure then the American market.

[punked]

Probably not. The Ontario market seems to be more secure then the American market.

I can't imagine how. I know America's electrical usage is dropping off but their market is huge. That and Manitoba's own Churchill Hydro projects will be coming online in the future to supply more cheep hydro to the US or Ontario as well. I would assume the states wouldn't be a bad bet.

[Wild Bill]

I can't imagine how. I know America's electrical usage is dropping off but their market is huge. That and Manitoba's own Churchill Hydro projects will be coming online in the future to supply more cheep hydro to the US or Ontario as well. I would assume the states wouldn't be a bad bet.

Punked, the demand keeps constantly rising! We have already flogged the conservation horse almost to death. CFLs and lighting was always the mice nuts part of the electricity bill anyway.

Population keeps growing. People need a roof over their head. That means more refrigerators, stoves, furnace motors and all the other stuff.

Add electric cars into the mix that need charging every night and it will never stop!

Do you have any cites to prove this idea that usage is dropping? As a techie type, I just don't see how that can be true. We MIGHT see a small dip if factories are shut down for the recession but as soon as we get back on our feet demand will go through the roof!

Do you have any idea how much electricity even one arc furnace in a steel mill draws?

[punked]

Punked, the demand keeps constantly rising! We have already flogged the conservation horse almost to death. CFLs and lighting was always the mice nuts part of the electricity bill anyway.

Population keeps growing. People need a roof over their head. That means more refrigerators, stoves, furnace motors and all the other stuff.

Add electric cars into the mix that need charging every night and it will never stop!

Do you have any cites to prove this idea that usage is dropping? As a techie type, I just don't see how that can be true. We MIGHT see a small dip if factories are shut down for the recession but as soon as we get back on our feet demand will go through the roof!

Do you have any idea how much electricity even one arc furnace in a steel mill draws?

Usage is dropping not because people use less power. Usage is dropping because our high oil dollar is killing manufacturing. Example would be in NS two just two paper mills went off line there this year. NS power now says they will be able to meet their conservation targets because those two mills used 20% of all the power in that province. Consumer usage is only part of the pie. Same in the US as manufacturing moves to China their power consumption goes down.

[punked]

Punked, the demand keeps constantly rising! We have already flogged the conservation horse almost to death. CFLs and lighting was always the mice nuts part of the electricity bill anyway.

Population keeps growing. People need a roof over their head. That means more refrigerators, stoves, furnace motors and all the other stuff.

Add electric cars into the mix that need charging every night and it will never stop!

Do you have any cites to prove this idea that usage is dropping? As a techie type, I just don't see how that can be true. We MIGHT see a small dip if factories are shut down for the recession but as soon as we get back on our feet demand will go through the roof!

Do you have any idea how much electricity even one arc furnace in a steel mill draws?

Usage is dropping not because people use less power. Usage is dropping because our high oil dollar is killing manufacturing. Example would be in NS two just two paper mills went off line there this year. NS power now says they will be able to meet their conservation targets because those two mills used 20% of all the power in that province. Consumer usage is only part of the pie. Same in the US as manufacturing moves to China their power consumption goes down.

[TimG]

Usage is dropping not because people use less power.

People are using less power because technology constantly improves and can now do more with a lot less. My computer today uses a fraction of power my computer did 10 years ago and is much faster.

Usage is dropping because our high oil dollar is killing manufacturing.

Study after study has shown that the high dollar has little effect on high value industries like auto making. Low value add industries like clothing manufacturing are hurt a lot more but they are not where the high paying jobs are. The loss of jobs from north america has more to do with social cost structures that are not competitive than with the high Canadian dollar.

Same in the US as manufacturing moves to China their power consumption goes down.

You should be celebrating. The end of industry in Canada/US has been primary objective of lefty environmentalists for many years now. The only problem is people without a job don't really give a damn about CO2 emissions. Edited August 17, 2012 by TimG

[Newfoundlander]

I can't imagine how. I know America's electrical usage is dropping off but their market is huge. That and Manitoba's own Churchill Hydro projects will be coming online in the future to supply more cheep hydro to the US or Ontario as well. I would assume the states wouldn't be a bad bet.

Nalcor will sell to "spot" markets in the US. Opposition say there is no market in the US for the power though, and the added expense of the maritime route makes the power more expensive.

[punked]

People are using less power because technology constantly improves and can now do more with a lot less. My computer today uses a fraction of power my computer did 10 years ago and is much faster.

I agree with that to but population is expanding as well so these two things are a trade off. Not to mention today I use a computer, a table, a TV, a cell phone, my ipod, etc etc etc. They might use less power but there is a whole hell of a lot more of them. So I would not agree with you on this one.

Study after study has shown that the high dollar has little effect on high value industries like auto making. Low value add industries like clothing manufacturing are hurt a lot more but they are not where the high paying jobs are. The loss of jobs from north america has more to do with social cost structures that are not competitive than with the high Canadian dollar.

There is another thread for this if you want to get into it. However if you want me to cheer on the loss of jobs across Canada be it in pulp and paper, the auto industry or Clothing well I will not. I guess when the Conservatives say there are no bad jobs what they really mean is there are no bad jobs unless we lose those jobs because of the high oil dollar because we don't even want to acknowledged this problem exists.

You should be celebrating. The end of industry in Canada/US has been primary objective of lefty environmentalists for many years now. The only problem is people without a job job don't really give a damn about CO2 emissions/.

You don't even know what you are talking about. A CO2 emissions cap or tax could be structured in a number of ways say how about this one only the top 10 CO2 emitters pay it. Guess who would then pay it? The oil producers that are killing the manufacturing sector. You could then take those dollars and give a tax break to manufacturers this helping with the dutch disease. Stop trying to pretend problems don't exist because you don't want them to exist. It isn't good for our country.

[punked]

Nalcor will sell to "spot" markets in the US. Opposition say there is no market in the US for the power though, and the added expense of the maritime route makes the power more expensive.

I find it hard to believe there is no market in the US for your power. I really don't think the Nfld government, the NS government, and the Federal government would support this if what you say is true. It sounds more like Nfld Liberals and NDPers trying to through stuff at the wall for the next election because this project wont be done by then they can pretend it is very very bad. I just don't see how. Are their any policy papers that support this opinion or is just an Opposition doing their job and trying to present the other side.

[Newfoundlander]

I find it hard to believe there is no market in the US for your power. I really don't think the Nfld government, the NS government, and the Federal government would support this if what you say is true. It sounds more like Nfld Liberals and NDPers trying to through stuff at the wall for the next election because this project wont be done by then they can pretend it is very very bad. I just don't see how. Are their any policy papers that support this opinion or is just an Opposition doing their job and trying to present the other side.

There's also talk that the power could be used in Atlantic Canada. I'm not sure what evidence the opposition have of their being no market in the US. The NDP and Liberals want natural gas explored as a power option for us, as well as wind, and say that the US can use natural gas which will be cheaper for them.