Argus Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Posted July 29, 2012 Oh I see. Bring back the Gulag. Bring back the rack, and the iron maiden. This is akin to the way they do it in Saudi, public executions at soccer matches. You MUST stay and observe, because the deterrent is to see your neighbours getting their heads cut off with a dull sword. Or have their balls removed. Or caned until they're covered in welts. Watch the show little Johnny, you're not allowed to look away. Just pray that they get the right guy, and didn't have anyone falsely accused. Then there's another problem, if violence is endemic acceptable way to deal with someone who has done something wrong, as demonstrated by the state leaders then it should be obvious that violence makes things right again. Pain, torture makes things right again. So if my wife or children do something that irritates me, I lash out with my closed fist. That is how the society of Argus will be built. It's apparent you aren't very good at reading comprehension. Certainly this sophomoric rant of yours can't be more than peripherally related to anything I've written. If you're going to invent straw men and rail against them do it in someone else's topic, will you? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Posted July 29, 2012 That's not true at all, I'd have few qualms punishing someone like George W Bush in the manner you're prescribing. What manner am I prescribing? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Posted July 29, 2012 Your supporting evidence is a Vancouver Sun "special investigation" done over 8 years ago with quotes from Vic Toews and the Conservative Party? Moreover, the article simply throws around numbers without actually comparing them to anything else. How are we to know if that rate is high? Want to try again? I've provided numbers. You don't like them? Then provide your own. It's true the rate isn't compared to other nations, but it doesn't need to be. 37% is far too high. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted July 29, 2012 Report Posted July 29, 2012 37% is far too high.Is it? How do you know? What are you basing that on? Quote
eyeball Posted July 29, 2012 Report Posted July 29, 2012 First of all, the re-instatement of the death penalty would cause less prisoners as the miscreants might not want to go for that for murder. Secondly, prevent the drugs from getting into prisons. (really easy if the institutions really wanted that to happen) Put the prisons in isolated spots in our tundra areas. Visitors can't get there? tough shit. If you want to see your family, don't commit the crime. Do away with the petty shit like pot possession. Get judges who are willing to use the laws we have rather than judges that try to rewrite the laws that are now in place. Parliament writes the laws & the courts impose them. Kill off people like Bernardo & Homolka & also (if convicted,) Magnotta and incidentally, ALL people in prison who have been convicted of First degree murder. This also would lessen the number of the incarcerated. Put them all to work at something that could earn their keep while in prison. You do realize you'd probably have to wage and win a civil war to establish the sort of government that would lean in the direction you're suggesting we go. Do away with the petty shit like pot possession. Yeah right, as if that would ever happen. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted July 29, 2012 Report Posted July 29, 2012 What manner am I prescribing? Singapore's. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Posted July 29, 2012 Is it? How do you know? What are you basing that on? It is far too high for my satisfaction. I don't need anyone else's judgement on it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Posted July 29, 2012 Singapore's. I only borrowed one idea, corporal punishment, from Singapore. That does not make it a Singapore legal system. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Guest Manny Posted July 29, 2012 Report Posted July 29, 2012 It's apparent you aren't very good at reading comprehension. Certainly this sophomoric rant of yours can't be more than peripherally related to anything I've written. If you're going to invent straw men and rail against them do it in someone else's topic, will you? I extended what you said to show that it is absurd, and dangerous. Not straw man, you said you would condone state forced castration, caning. Simple physical punishment without any benefit towards rehabilitation. Your response does not address the two main concerns I raised with this, which are: - What if the person is found to be falsely accused? - What about the effect this would have on our culture, the notion that state sanctioned violence is an appropriate means to deal with a situation when someone has committed some offence against you. I say the level of violence in society will rise, if those ideas of yours are implemented. Quote
Wild Bill Posted July 29, 2012 Report Posted July 29, 2012 - What about the effect this would have on our culture, the notion that state sanctioned violence is an appropriate means to deal with a situation when someone has committed some offence against you. I say the level of violence in society will rise, if those ideas of yours are implemented. Manny, punishment is SUPPOSED to rest with the State! It has to do with the concept of "consent to be governed". Once law and justice were individual matters. It didn't work that well. Those rich and powerful could run roughshod over the poor and weak. Eventually British law evolved to where justice lay with the King. The people consented to this because while the King might not be perfect he did have far more resources to nab and punish evil doers. Eventually even personal duels became outlawed. However, we now are at a point where the State is perceived as sometimes unwilling to punish those who have hurt us. We are not allowed to take things into our own hands but the State doesn't seem to do its job very well. This only cheapens the injury to the citizen. It then breeds disrespect for the Law and the State. It's all very well for the State to adopt what it considers "progressive" attitudes towards punishment but if it does so without the consent of the people then friction MUST occur! Many if not most of the attitudes in our justice system today have evolved from a relatively small group within the system. Changes are never done by referenda or a plebiscite. They are never even seen as campaign planks in an election platform! I submit to you Manny that the present situation is already having its effect upon our culture and it doesn't seem to be a positive one! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
eyeball Posted July 29, 2012 Report Posted July 29, 2012 I only borrowed one idea, corporal punishment, from Singapore. That does not make it a Singapore legal system. The legal system of Singapore is based on the same English common law system as our's. Where you want our's to go is in the same direction and a direction is not a place so... I don't think it would be very long at all until folks like you were taking your one idea and extending it to the entire system and creating more laws by which to extend it. How long it would be until blow-jobs, bubble-gum and failing to flush toilets are punishable crimes here too merely depends on how fearful our politicians are of appearing soft on the horrible people who do these things Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wild Bill Posted July 29, 2012 Report Posted July 29, 2012 The legal system of Singapore is based on the same English common law system as our's. Where you want our's to go is in the same direction and a direction is not a place so... I don't think it would be very long at all until folks like you were taking your one idea and extending it to the entire system and creating more laws by which to extend it. How long it would be until blow-jobs, bubble-gum and failing to flush toilets are punishable crimes here too merely depends on how fearful our politicians are of appearing soft on the horrible people who do these things Eyeball, could you possibly stretch it any further? Giving ridiculous examples that would likely cause a revolution from the people just doesn't make any sense at all! I'm surprised you didn't include mandatory church attendance and forced voting for the NDP. You could maybe include UFOs in there somewhere. When you start arguing "what ifs" you can throw in any cockamamie thing you want! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Argus Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Posted July 29, 2012 I don't think it would be very long at all until folks like you were taking your one idea and extending it to the entire system and creating more laws by which to extend it. How long it would be until blow-jobs, bubble-gum and failing to flush toilets are punishable crimes here too merely depends on how fearful our politicians are of appearing soft on the horrible people who do these things But any punishment could be extended in the same way. It's as if to say if we impose a five year prison term for carrying around an illegal hand gun we could impose the same sentence for jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk. I mean, yeah, we could, but why would we? And what is the likelihood. Besides, I bet most petty criminals would rather get a caning than several months in jail. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted July 29, 2012 Report Posted July 29, 2012 Eyeball, could you possibly stretch it any further? Giving ridiculous examples that would likely cause a revolution from the people just doesn't make any sense at all! You just don't facetiousness do you? In any case ridiculous examples seem apropos in a thread with a ridiculous premise, that all that's wrong with our prison system is that it's not hard enough on criminals. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted July 29, 2012 Report Posted July 29, 2012 But any punishment could be extended in the same way. It's as if to say if we impose a five year prison term for carrying around an illegal hand gun we could impose the same sentence for jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk. I mean, yeah, we could, but why would we? And what is the likelihood. Besides, I bet most petty criminals would rather get a caning than several months in jail. Define petty in the context of criminality. Perhaps you wouldn't give a jaywalker 5 years in prison but it appears safe to assume you'd give him a choice between a caning or several months behind bars. So how many whacks with the cane were you thinking would be equivalent to several months in jail, just enough to put him in hospital for 2 or 3 weeks maybe? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
cybercoma Posted July 29, 2012 Report Posted July 29, 2012 It is far too high for my satisfaction. I don't need anyone else's judgement on it. Well, good for you then. Say, if it was at 1% would you still say it's too high? Or do you have some sort of reasoning for the benchmark you choose? Quote
Canuckistani Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 First of all, the re-instatement of the death penalty would cause less prisoners as the miscreants might not want to go for that for murder. How is it that Texas has such a high murder rate if this were true? Texans would be killing each other in even greater numbers if Texas wasn't so enthusiastic about doling out the death penalty? Quote
Canuckistani Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 We need much more emphasis on rehabilitation. Aside from the services offered for that, I think we need longer sentences. Firstly to keep people in jail long enough for a rehabilitative program to take effect, then to have them on length periods of parole, where they're given a chance to demonstrate they've reformed, or back in they go Has this approach worked ANYWHERE in the world? Take a look at Norway's approach to the penal system and their recidivism rate. Quote
Argus Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Posted July 30, 2012 I extended what you said to show that it is absurd, and dangerous. Not straw man, you said you would condone state forced castration, caning. Simple physical punishment without any benefit towards rehabilitation. Rehabilitation can be an important aspect of what the legal system does. But what you and other liberals completely leave out is the equally important aspects of deterrence and punishment. The fact is that often enough criminals can not be rehabilitated. So what does that leave you? What do you do with a crackhead who refuses to quit his habit and who gets arrested every few months for theft? Keep locking him up at high costs to the taxpayer? Caning is not going to kill him, could be as much of a deterrent as jail, and would save a fortune. And I see nothing wrong with castration for serial rapists. You think rehabilitation is going to change that sort of behaviour? It never has before. Your response does not address the two main concerns I raised with this, which are: - What if the person is found to be falsely accused? What of it? I'm not talking about the death penalty here. And I believe chemical castration can be reversed. Further, which would you rather do before being found to have been falsely accused, spend ten years in jail, or get castrated? - What about the effect this would have on our culture, the notion that state sanctioned violence is an appropriate means to deal with a situation when someone has committed some offence against you. If you actually consider the facts, state violence is ultimately the means for holding our society together. All laws and regulations are ultimately enforced through violence. Think I'm wrong? Don't pay your next speeding ticket. Eventually, an agent of state will seize you, physically bind you, and forcibly take you down to the state enforcement agency otherwise known as the police station. If you resist, the state will use whatever level of force is required to compel your obedience, up to and including killing you. The same goes for paying your taxes or getting a building permit for your house. In the end, the state does not hesitate to use force to compel your obedience to its demands. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Posted July 30, 2012 You just don't facetiousness do you? In any case ridiculous examples seem apropos in a thread with a ridiculous premise, that all that's wrong with our prison system is that it's not hard enough on criminals. No one has made that suggestion. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Posted July 30, 2012 Define petty in the context of criminality. Perhaps you wouldn't give a jaywalker 5 years in prison but it appears safe to assume you'd give him a choice between a caning or several months behind bars. Stop being stupid. We don't send jaywalkers to jail now so why would we cane them? So how many whacks with the cane were you thinking would be equivalent to several months in jail, just enough to put him in hospital for 2 or 3 weeks maybe? From what I understand, the normal medical treatment after caning consists of applying some antispectic. That's it. No hospital treatment is required. It's not a bloody death wound, you know. It's a sore ass. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Posted July 30, 2012 Take a look at Norway's approach to the penal system and their recidivism rate. The problem in looking at individual countries is that their crime, their treatment of it, and the response of individuals is all intricately linked to the culture which gives rise to them all. What would work in Norway would not necessarily work in France. What would work in Germany would not necessarily work in Canada. Etc. Would Norway's approach work in the United States, with its vast inner ghettos and street gangs? Unlikely. It probably wouldn't even work in Norway if they had the same problems as the US does. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
WWWTT Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 The problem in looking at individual countries is that their crime, their treatment of it, and the response of individuals is all intricately linked to the culture which gives rise to them all. What would work in Norway would not necessarily work in France. What would work in Germany would not necessarily work in Canada. Etc. Would Norway's approach work in the United States, with its vast inner ghettos and street gangs? Unlikely. It probably wouldn't even work in Norway if they had the same problems as the US does. And why is that? First off one must look at a countries infrastructure,employment,education,health care system and so on. Way too much emphasis is put on culture.I believe culture does play a role,but much smaller compared to social spending. General rule of thumb would be less social spending,more crime. An exception would be China perhaps?However China has had a booming economy for a very very very long time and almost no unemployment.(spending on justice,police,jails is only a fraction than compared to the west too,maybe like 25-30%) WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
eyeball Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Stop being stupid. I'm still being facetious actually. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
CPCFTW Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Tear it all down, the system sucks. 1. Hire thousands more police officers and convert prison security and correctional officers into police officers. 2. Place gps tracking implants in all non-violent offenders (with serious crimes) and release them all them under house arrest with extreme supervision (all phones and internet connections tapped and monitored, video cameras installed in house to monitor susicious activity). Wages are garnished to pay a settlement to victims, and offenders have no rights to social assistance. 3. Non-violent offenders of less serious crimes simply have no access to social assistance and have wages garnished to pay for any damages to victims or as a penalty. 4. Construct factories in rural areas with on-site housing, libraries, etc. Fence the facility in and have guards stationed around the proximity and within. Sort of like a mini city that is fenced in. Keep all violent offenders into the prison city to manufacture goods. The offenders will be paid a very low wage and have their wages garnished to pay victims. The produced goods will be sold at a competitive price in world markets (even if at a loss), to pay some of the costs of the correctional system. 5. Rent out our now empty prisons to the US for extra revenues. Quote
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