israel to spare 4 villages!

[Canuckistani]

Relatively speaking, Israel is a beacon of sanity in crazy country. But the more they emulate their neighbors, the less they are a beacon and hold the moral highground.

Land is important. It's why Jews make such a fuss about Israel - a home land. (Duddy Kravitz said he same thing, you're nobody without land, never made the connection before). But the very people who realize how important it is to have land want to deny other people their land. Keep taking Palestinian land and you'll never have peace. Israel can only show it wants peace if it stops the settlements. Until then it's just mouthing empty words, while accusing the other side of it. Occupy the West Bank with soldiers until the Palestinians are ready to make peace. But don't keep annexing more land.

[bud]

Kind of a diversion you're pulling here, isn't it? This thread is about Israel. We can just about always point to somebody who's worse than what ever the topic at hand is. Does that mean Israel should receive no criticism until the rest of the world is as pure as the driven snow?

when syria commits human rights violations, i don't think there are any western governments who sit silent or even try to cover for the syrian government. it's basically unanimous that syria is committing human rights violations. however, when israel commits human rights violations, which they have been doing against the palestinians and others, since their creation over 60 years, then we don't see the same condemnation from our governments and the few loud apologists. this double standard and hypocrisy is the problem.

Edited July 26, 2012 by bud

[DogOnPorch]

Relatively speaking, Israel is a beacon of sanity in crazy country. But the more they emulate their neighbors, the less they are a beacon and hold the moral highground.

Land is important. It's why Jews make such a fuss about Israel - a home land. (Duddy Kravitz said he same thing, you're nobody without land, never made the connection before). But the very people who realize how important it is to have land want to deny other people their land. Keep taking Palestinian land and you'll never have peace. Israel can only show it wants peace if it stops the settlements. Until then it's just mouthing empty words, while accusing the other side of it. Occupy the West Bank with soldiers until the Palestinians are ready to make peace. But don't keep annexing more land.

But, the ol' saying is true: One doesn't have any rights to land, just the right to defend it. Plus, it is truely debatable if this is 'Palestinian Land' or not. If I recall, the Arab's rejected the Partition and chose a war of extermination as their answer. They lost. Several times! I know it sucks for the rank-n-file...if there is such a thing in Hamas/Fatah land...losing a war...but, ask Germans living in Prussia how losing WW2 worked out for them. You might try, but you will not find any.

[DogOnPorch]

And note bud has started yet another thread on this subject.

[bud]

But, the ol' saying is true: One doesn't have any rights to land, just the right to defend it.

there are a lot of "ol' sayings". in this day and age, we don't follow "ol'sayings". this is about international law and israel's obligation to follow international law. you can't expect people to accept a bully who steals land and violates the rights of people.

Plus, it is truely debatable if this is 'Palestinian Land' or not.

only debatable if you live in a small place in your head and disregard what the internationally law says and what the international court of justice has said.

If I recall, the Arab's rejected the Partition

do you also recall that israel also rejected the partition?

barbaric rules do not apply anymore. while the weak arabs tried to stand up to israel, israel was ethnically cleansing palestine. over 500 villages were destroyed, thousands killed and over 600,000 were forced out of their homes. you can't just shrug and pretend it didn't happen; unless, of course, you're okay with ethnic cleansing and fascism.

Edited July 26, 2012 by bud

[DogOnPorch]

there are a lot of "ol' sayings". in this day and age, we don't follow "ol'sayings". this is about international law and israel's obligation to follow international law. you can't expect people to accept a bully who steals land and violates the rights of people.

only debatable if you live in a small place in your head and disregard what the internationally law says and what the international court of justice has said.

do you also recall that israel also rejected the partition?

barbaric rules do not apply anymore. while the weak arabs tried to stand up to israel, israel was ethnically cleansing palestine. over 500 villages were destroyed, thousands killed and over 600,000 were forced out of their homes. you can't just shrug and pretend it didn't happen; unless, of course, you're okay with ethnic cleansing and fascism.

Oh really? Where's South Viet-Nam these days? Funny there's no fuss over North Viet-Nam taking territory in a war well after your beloved UN242.

New rules introduced by Israel's enemies re: what winning a war means isn't going to stop nature from taking its course. Israel did not reject the Partition of 1947. The terrorist groups Irgun and the Stern Gang did. But, they're not a factor nor have they been a factor since the 1940s. You can also trot out a few hardliners or revisionists like Simha Flapan that claim Israel rejected the Partition; but, since Israel exists...we know that didn't happen. Either way, your Arab friends attacked trying to eliminate all the Jews...but failed.

Edited July 26, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[bud]

Oh really? Where's South Viet-Nam these days? Funny there's no fuss over North Viet-Nam taking territory in a war well after your beloved UN242.

they merged into one country. why do you make such stupid comparisons? the circumstances are different and the results and what the people want are different.

New rules introduced by Israel's enemiesre: what winning a war means isn't going to stop nature from taking its course.

international law was not introduced by israel's enemies.

Israel did not reject the Partition of 1947. The terrorist groups Irgun and the Stern Gang did. But, they're not a factor nor have they been a factor since the 1940s.

you mean menachem begin the leader of irgun who eventually became israel's prime minister was never a factor?

You can also trot out a few hardliners or revisionists like Simha Flapan that claim Israel rejected the Partition; but, since Israel exists...we know that didn't happen. Either way, your Arab friends attacked trying to eliminate all the Jews...but failed.

if israel had accepted the partition plan, they would have accepted the recognized borders. they have 'never' accepted any borders. not in 1948, not in 1967 and not now.

Edited July 30, 2012 by bud

[DogOnPorch]

Merged into one country...lol. That's what Germany was doing. It's called WAR. Nope...South Viet-Nam is the perfect example of rules for Jews and rules for everyone else.

[Rue]

Do you think the Jews seriously want to negotiate with the Palestinians? They won the war, they can afford to be a little magnanimous. Stop building settlements, otherwise what exactly do the Palestinians have to negotiate for? It would show the good intentions of the Israelis. But they don't seem to have them any more than the Palestinians.

What you abd Bud and that lovely Mullah have in common is you like to use the word jew and Israeli interchangeably typifying how people like you and Bud and this bearded genius use alleged debate about the existence of Israel to engage in disparaging comments about all Jews.

Are you capable of using the word Israeli or are you as bigoted and hateful as that Mullah. See unlike you he makes no pretense. His war is against JEWS. Who is your criticism directed against hmmm? Do you even know?

Jews? You want to refer to all Jews do you. Here I am. You want to ask me if I want to negotiate with Palestinians or are you speaking of Israelis? Hmmm? Does your brain fathom the difference? Can it?

Get it clear-I am not Israeli. I do not live in Israel. The fact I am a Jew does not mean you consult me about the future of Israelis. Speak to them. I doubt you even would know what a Jew is if one bit you.

Do me a favour, when you want to compare Israel to Nazi Germany be careful. The analogy has been done before and it might slip why you do that. Save the odious Jews are Nazis shtick for someone else.

[Canuckistani]

What you abd Bud and that lovely Mullah have in common is you like to use the word jew and Israeli interchangeably typifying how people like you and Bud and this bearded genius use alleged debate about the existence of Israel to engage in disparaging comments about all Jews.

Are you capable of using the word Israeli or are you as bigoted and hateful as that Mullah. See unlike you he makes no pretense. His war is against JEWS. Who is your criticism directed against hmmm? Do you even know?

Jews? You want to refer to all Jews do you. Here I am. You want to ask me if I want to negotiate with Palestinians or are you speaking of Israelis? Hmmm? Does your brain fathom the difference? Can it?

Get it clear-I am not Israeli. I do not live in Israel. The fact I am a Jew does not mean you consult me about the future of Israelis. Speak to them. I doubt you even would know what a Jew is if one bit you.

Do me a favour, when you want to compare Israel to Nazi Germany be careful. The analogy has been done before and it might slip why you do that. Save the odious Jews are Nazis shtick for someone else.

I find what you say strange. I thought Israel was the homeland of the Jews. How then is it bad to talk about the Jews when talking about Israel. As for the non-Jewish Israelis, I would be surprised if they were in favor of the settlements and continued land grab. As for non-Israeli Jews, the Israel lobby in the US, (ie US Jews) as I understand it, is second only to the NRA in influence. It certainly sounds like Jews outside of Israel seem to feel a connection to Israel. Then the reason I hear why the settlements should continue is that God gave the Jews (not the Israelis) that land, and they area just reclaiming their rightful heritage.

I have met Jews who definitely don't support Israel's current policies, seem to be some of the most vocal critics, in part because they don't have to worry about being called anti-Semites for doing so. How is it I so often read letters to the editor in the paper that call people who criticize Israel anti-Semitic? Seems like a lot of twisted logic going on here.

I mean, if only you could criticize Israel with the same sometimes over the top vigor we might criticize the US or Russia without being labelled racist for it. I'd be happy to never say the Jews when meaning Israel in that case.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Canuckistani

[Rue]

Cauckastani you are a genius. Here let me try help with some of your questions in quotation marks.

"I find what you say strange. I thought Israel was the homeland of the Jews. How then is it bad to talk about the Jews when talking about Israel."

First of all I did not use the word "bad". Bad is a term you use because you are simplistic and need to label things as black and white, good or bad when you discuss things.

How about you flex your brain and understand in this world there is more than black and white or that it is possible to be a Jew, support the state of Israel but not consider Israel one's homeland. I am Canadian. Canada is my homeland. I was born in Canada. Canada is my only homeland. I am 100% devoted to Canada. It comes first. You find that strange or can your pee brain not define a Jew unless you lump them all in one simplistic category?

There are many people who support Israel. In fact there are more Christians than Jews in the world who support Israel's right to exist and believe Israel is the homeland of Christians as well. Of course it is. Christianity started in the same place as Judaism did. It is also a homeland for non Jews born there. It is the homeland for many peoples. The concept of Jews creating a collective identity and then choosing to use statehood as one of many ways to express it does not mean all Jews or all Israel supporting Jews think Israel is our homeland or think like robots and do not differentiate our national identities from Israeli citizenship.

You use the word Jew interchangeably for supporter of Israel as if no other supporter of Israel exists. Do you refer to British people as Anglicans when you discuss their nationality? Do you refer to French as Catholics when you discuss their French nationality?

What is so PROBLEMATIC is that you clearly demonstrate you do not understand how many but not necessarily all Jewish people choose to define ourselves collectively and like Bud you spew ridiculously simplistic black and white stereotypes of all Jews because your brain can't fathom we have all kinds of opinions that can not be lumped in a "the Jews" category.

Don't stereotyope me. Shove your stereotype. My homeland is Canada. I was born here and I will die here and Canada is my only homeland. I believe in the right of fellow Jews to express their collective identity through a Jewish state. Theyw ere not lucky enough to be born like me in Canada.

Many fo us Jews chose to collectively identity ourselves through Israeli nationality is because some of us we had to create our own country and use the state to protect us and guarantee our right to exist and it was precisely because of people like you-people who preach a double standard, one for all non Jews and one for Jews.

We had to create a nation as an existential last stand to prevent our extinction precisely because people like you think nothing of Britain being an Anglican state, Italy being a Catholic state, and so many Muslim nations, but if a bunch of Jews want a country you spit and sputtle.

I would not be a Zionist supporter if people like you and Bud did not exist. If people such as yourselves who need to label and generalize an entire people did not exist, people would not need to use a state to guarantee their continued existence as we do. No people would have to. In an ideal world all nations would be neutral when it came to religion and all peoples' beliefs would be accommodated. In the real world this does not happen.

In the real world we have Muslim nations that do not seperate religion from state and if you are a non Muslim you have no rights. You can not own land, vote, own businesses, testify in court, travel, get a passport or pray openly.

Of course you knew that. You know all about the segregation of dhimmitude which your buddy Bud never mentions.

You stated;

"as for the non-Jewish Israelis, I would be surprised if they were in favor of the settlements and continued land grab."

Read the above. You can conceive of non Jewish Israelis but for some reason you won't say Jewish Israelis you can only say 'The Jews".

Once again with the above you present your simplistic black and white stereotypes. Get this crystal clear. There are JEWISH Israelis and non Israeli Jews who support Israel's right to exist as a nation and who do not support Israel's right to a nation who do not necessarily agree with some or all of its settlement polices on the West Bank. I am a supporter of Israel who is Jewish who does not agree with all West Bank policies. There are many like me. There are hard as it is for you to believe non Jewish Israelis and non Jewish non Israelis who support Israeli West Bank policies. Stop strereotyping people based on their religion. It simply evidences you can't think without lumping people in moronic black and white labels.

You stated:

"As for non-Israeli Jews, the Israel lobby in the US, (ie US Jews) as I understand it, is second only to the NRA in influence."

As you understand it? You mean as you stereotype it. You once again demonstrate the simplistic lumping of all Jews outside Israel as some powerful cabal that controls the U.S. That is the most ancient of anti-semitic stereotypes. It is nothing then the same upgraded stereotyping of Jews they said about us in Russia, and Europe. Oh yes DAH Jews. We just magically control.

The entire U.S. are a bunch of salivating morons we easily brain control.

First of all the NRA is not a lobby defending a country. It defends gun rights. As such to compare the AIPAC lobby to it is nonsensical. In fact the NRA and many other such lobbies are far more powerful than AIPAC. They have much mopre money and grass roots support.

Now let us deal with your idiotic stereotype of AIPAC. Gof ind out who are the largest national lobbies. Go on. Can you even do that. Does your pee brain even know the size and extent of China's lobby or even the United Kingdom's. Go find out.

AIPAC does not have the magical mind control power you stereotype it to have. No we Jews do not all control the world or the U.S. What AIPAC does is network with the US military industrial complex lobbyists who are the most power national or foreign affairs lobbyists. If AIPAC's politics lines up with the military industrial complex agenda, it is the military industrial complex agenda that prevails.

Israel is a tester of the US military indtsrial complex weapons systems. Because of the security it can guarantee weapons systems are able to be tested in Israel and then sent back to the US for final refinement. Because of this network, military weapons from the US are then sold to nations NOT JUST Israel. How about you ask your self a very simple question. If Israel is so powerful who is it the US sends as much military arsenal to Egypt, Saudia Arabia and Turkey as it does Israel? Hmmm?

You think Israel is the only nation to get US weapons?

In fact the tragedy is Israel has become anything but independent. It now has an economy that switched from agrarian (exporting oranges) and trading diamonds to military development because of the fact it is in a constant state of war and ahs beens ince 1949. No ZIonists did not envision such a state. Zionism enunciated a socialist farming state. This is why its

first supporters were the Czechs and Stalin. Had Stalin not sent hundreds of thousands of Jews to Israel in 1948-1949 and had Czechoslovakia not sent weapons, the Jews there would have been wiped out. The UN and West turned its back on the Jews.

In the non Jewish world it was Elenor Roosevelt who took on the world on behalf of Jewish refugees and demanded a state for them. She single handedly is responsible for Israel's existence other than the Jewish and non Jewish volunteers who went to Israel to right.

Of course you knew that.

"It certainly sounds like Jews outside of Israel seem to feel a connection to Israel."

How would you know? Stop stereotyping me. You do not know how I and other Jews feel about Israel. You never speak with us. I doubt you would know what a Jew looks like. You do not understand our feelings. Do not patronize me or any other Jew and speak for us. Try listening to how we feel instead of presuming to tell us how we feel. You might find you won't write idiotic sentences such as the above. What does "sounds" like. Do you hear Jews making Jew noises? Oh wait let Bud answer that. He is full of such stereotypes.

"Then the reason I hear why the settlements should continue is that God gave the Jews (not the Israelis) that land, and they area just reclaiming their rightful heritage."

Really you hear that. Yes I know. We Jews stand around every street corner stating that. I know I do.

Again you use idiotic simplistic references. A segment of religious Jews who interpret the old Testament in a particular manner have views like that yes. How about you check what percentage of the entire Israeli and Jewish population they are.

Can you do that? How is it you do not hear Jews like me? I would state you heard nothing and the above is just you stereotyping a certain element of fundamentalist religious Zionists because you are a genius and that is what you choose to see.

"I have met Jews who definitely don't support Israel's current policies, seem to be some of the most vocal critics, in part because they don't have to worry about being called anti-Semites for doing so. "

Again you soeak tripe or absolute horse excrement. SOme of the worst anti-semites who have been called out for being anti-semitic are Jews. To suggest you do not know this is hilarious. Anyone Jew or non Jew who engages in negative stereotypes of all Jews claiming it is justified criticism of Israel gets called out for it and so should they and so should someone like you

whose narrow rigid thought patterns can't conceive of Jews without putting false labels on them.

"How is it I so often read letters to the editor in the paper that call people who criticize Israel anti-Semitic? "

Precisely because they engage in false and/or negative stereotypes of all Jews.

"Seems like a lot of twisted logic going on here."

No its not. It seems twisted because you demonstrate an inability to differentiate Jews from Israelis so of course it would seem twisted to you. You use the word "strange" a lot. It could be the world seems "strange" to you because your brain has not yet grasped how to conceive of people without using simplistc labels.

Speaking about twisted logic read this sentence-it makes zero sense:

"I mean, if only you could criticize Israel with the same sometimes over the top vigor we might criticize the US or Russia without being labelled racist for it. I'd be happy to never say the Jews when meaning Israel in that case."

Do you read before you post? If you took the time to stop lumping all Jews in one category and not use ancient Jewish anti-semitic stereotypes that disparage all Jews when discussing Israel, you might find a different reaction from people like me. I could give a rat's asp whether you are anti Israel. Engage in references to Jews and I will be on your asp until you stop.

For someone who would be happy to differentiate between Jews and Israelis how about you do that instead of making some absurd defective attempt to rationalize your stereotyping by referring to the US or Russia.

By the way, I criticize people for the exact same reasons when they stereotype all Americans or all Christians who support Israel or people who label all Muslims as extremist terrorists. Its problematic for any of us to use generalizations full of negative stereotypes. Read back what you said and good luck explaining how it is logical to argue that you stereotype Jews because you think others do it to Russians or Americans.

Brilliant logic.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Rue

[bleeding heart]

No we Jews do not all control the world or the U.S. What AIPAC does is network with the US military industrial complex lobbyists who are the most power national or foreign affairs lobbyists. If AIPAC's politics lines up with the military industrial complex agenda, it is the military industrial complex agenda that prevails.

I agree, and have had this debate many times. And the facts are not affected by whether one thinks this or that piece of US foreign policy is good or bad; that's a separate argument. The fact is that, currently (and by no means inevitably and forever) AIPAC often aligns with pre-existing US policy. (And presumably not in every instance, either.) This may or may not change in future...it probably will, in fact. But the US is certainly not run by an Israel lobby group, and so performing against its own (US's) interests. It's absurd to even think so, in my view.

Edited July 30, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Canuckistani]

Cauckastani you are a genius. Here let me try help with some of your questions in quotation marks.

"I find what you say strange. I thought Israel was the homeland of the Jews. How then is it bad to talk about the Jews when talking about Israel."

First of all I did not use the word "bad". Bad is a term you use because you are simplistic and need to label things as black and white, good or bad when you discuss things.

How about you flex your brain and understand in this world there is more than black and white or that it is possible to be a Jew, support the state of Israel but not consider Israel one's homeland. I am Canadian. Canada is my homeland. I was born in Canada. Canada is my only homeland. I am 100% devoted to Canada. It comes first. You find that strange or can your pee brain not define a Jew unless you lump them all in one simplistic category?

There are many people who support Israel. In fact there are more Christians than Jews in the world who support Israel's right to exist and believe Israel is the homeland of Christians as well. Of course it is. Christianity started in the same place as Judaism did. It is also a homeland for non Jews born there. It is the homeland for many peoples. The concept of Jews creating a collective identity and then choosing to use statehood as one of many ways to express it does not mean all Jews or all Israel supporting Jews think Israel is our homeland or think like robots and do not differentiate our national identities from Israeli citizenship.

You use the word Jew interchangeably for supporter of Israel as if no other supporter of Israel exists. Do you refer to British people as Anglicans when you discuss their nationality? Do you refer to French as Catholics when you discuss their French nationality?

What is so PROBLEMATIC is that you clearly demonstrate you do not understand how many but not necessarily all Jewish people choose to define ourselves collectively and like Bud you spew ridiculously simplistic black and white stereotypes of all Jews because your brain can't fathom we have all kinds of opinions that can not be lumped in a "the Jews" category.

Don't stereotyope me. Shove your stereotype. My homeland is Canada. I was born here and I will die here and Canada is my only homeland. I believe in the right of fellow Jews to express their collective identity through a Jewish state. Theyw ere not lucky enough to be born like me in Canada.

Many fo us Jews chose to collectively identity ourselves through Israeli nationality is because some of us we had to create our own country and use the state to protect us and guarantee our right to exist and it was precisely because of people like you-people who preach a double standard, one for all non Jews and one for Jews.

We had to create a nation as an existential last stand to prevent our extinction precisely because people like you think nothing of Britain being an Anglican state, Italy being a Catholic state, and so many Muslim nations, but if a bunch of Jews want a country you spit and sputtle.

I would not be a Zionist supporter if people like you and Bud did not exist. If people such as yourselves who need to label and generalize an entire people did not exist, people would not need to use a state to guarantee their continued existence as we do. No people would have to. In an ideal world all nations would be neutral when it came to religion and all peoples' beliefs would be accommodated. In the real world this does not happen.

In the real world we have Muslim nations that do not seperate religion from state and if you are a non Muslim you have no rights. You can not own land, vote, own businesses, testify in court, travel, get a passport or pray openly.

Of course you knew that. You know all about the segregation of dhimmitude which your buddy Bud never mentions.

You stated;

"as for the non-Jewish Israelis, I would be surprised if they were in favor of the settlements and continued land grab."

Read the above. You can conceive of non Jewish Israelis but for some reason you won't say Jewish Israelis you can only say 'The Jews".

Once again with the above you present your simplistic black and white stereotypes. Get this crystal clear. There are JEWISH Israelis and non Israeli Jews who support Israel's right to exist as a nation and who do not support Israel's right to a nation who do not necessarily agree with some or all of its settlement polices on the West Bank. I am a supporter of Israel who is Jewish who does not agree with all West Bank policies. There are many like me. There are hard as it is for you to believe non Jewish Israelis and non Jewish non Israelis who support Israeli West Bank policies. Stop strereotyping people based on their religion. It simply evidences you can't think without lumping people in moronic black and white labels.

You stated:

"As for non-Israeli Jews, the Israel lobby in the US, (ie US Jews) as I understand it, is second only to the NRA in influence."

As you understand it? You mean as you stereotype it. You once again demonstrate the simplistic lumping of all Jews outside Israel as some powerful cabal that controls the U.S. That is the most ancient of anti-semitic stereotypes. It is nothing then the same upgraded stereotyping of Jews they said about us in Russia, and Europe. Oh yes DAH Jews. We just magically control.

The entire U.S. are a bunch of salivating morons we easily brain control.

First of all the NRA is not a lobby defending a country. It defends gun rights. As such to compare the AIPAC lobby to it is nonsensical. In fact the NRA and many other such lobbies are far more powerful than AIPAC. They have much mopre money and grass roots support.

Now let us deal with your idiotic stereotype of AIPAC. Gof ind out who are the largest national lobbies. Go on. Can you even do that. Does your pee brain even know the size and extent of China's lobby or even the United Kingdom's. Go find out.

AIPAC does not have the magical mind control power you stereotype it to have. No we Jews do not all control the world or the U.S. What AIPAC does is network with the US military industrial complex lobbyists who are the most power national or foreign affairs lobbyists. If AIPAC's politics lines up with the military industrial complex agenda, it is the military industrial complex agenda that prevails.

Israel is a tester of the US military indtsrial complex weapons systems. Because of the security it can guarantee weapons systems are able to be tested in Israel and then sent back to the US for final refinement. Because of this network, military weapons from the US are then sold to nations NOT JUST Israel. How about you ask your self a very simple question. If Israel is so powerful who is it the US sends as much military arsenal to Egypt, Saudia Arabia and Turkey as it does Israel? Hmmm?

You think Israel is the only nation to get US weapons?

In fact the tragedy is Israel has become anything but independent. It now has an economy that switched from agrarian (exporting oranges) and trading diamonds to military development because of the fact it is in a constant state of war and ahs beens ince 1949. No ZIonists did not envision such a state. Zionism enunciated a socialist farming state. This is why its

first supporters were the Czechs and Stalin. Had Stalin not sent hundreds of thousands of Jews to Israel in 1948-1949 and had Czechoslovakia not sent weapons, the Jews there would have been wiped out. The UN and West turned its back on the Jews.

In the non Jewish world it was Elenor Roosevelt who took on the world on behalf of Jewish refugees and demanded a state for them. She single handedly is responsible for Israel's existence other than the Jewish and non Jewish volunteers who went to Israel to right.

Of course you knew that.

"It certainly sounds like Jews outside of Israel seem to feel a connection to Israel."

How would you know? Stop stereotyping me. You do not know how I and other Jews feel about Israel. You never speak with us. I doubt you would know what a Jew looks like. You do not understand our feelings. Do not patronize me or any other Jew and speak for us. Try listening to how we feel instead of presuming to tell us how we feel. You might find you won't write idiotic sentences such as the above. What does "sounds" like. Do you hear Jews making Jew noises? Oh wait let Bud answer that. He is full of such stereotypes.

"Then the reason I hear why the settlements should continue is that God gave the Jews (not the Israelis) that land, and they area just reclaiming their rightful heritage."

Really you hear that. Yes I know. We Jews stand around every street corner stating that. I know I do.

Again you use idiotic simplistic references. A segment of religious Jews who interpret the old Testament in a particular manner have views like that yes. How about you check what percentage of the entire Israeli and Jewish population they are.

Can you do that? How is it you do not hear Jews like me? I would state you heard nothing and the above is just you stereotyping a certain element of fundamentalist religious Zionists because you are a genius and that is what you choose to see.

"I have met Jews who definitely don't support Israel's current policies, seem to be some of the most vocal critics, in part because they don't have to worry about being called anti-Semites for doing so. "

Again you soeak tripe or absolute horse excrement. SOme of the worst anti-semites who have been called out for being anti-semitic are Jews. To suggest you do not know this is hilarious. Anyone Jew or non Jew who engages in negative stereotypes of all Jews claiming it is justified criticism of Israel gets called out for it and so should they and so should someone like you

whose narrow rigid thought patterns can't conceive of Jews without putting false labels on them.

"How is it I so often read letters to the editor in the paper that call people who criticize Israel anti-Semitic? "

Precisely because they engage in false and/or negative stereotypes of all Jews.

"Seems like a lot of twisted logic going on here."

No its not. It seems twisted because you demonstrate an inability to differentiate Jews from Israelis so of course it would seem twisted to you. You use the word "strange" a lot. It could be the world seems "strange" to you because your brain has not yet grasped how to conceive of people without using simplistc labels.

Speaking about twisted logic read this sentence-it makes zero sense:

"I mean, if only you could criticize Israel with the same sometimes over the top vigor we might criticize the US or Russia without being labelled racist for it. I'd be happy to never say the Jews when meaning Israel in that case."

Do you read before you post? If you took the time to stop lumping all Jews in one category and not use ancient Jewish anti-semitic stereotypes that disparage all Jews when discussing Israel, you might find a different reaction from people like me. I could give a rat's asp whether you are anti Israel. Engage in references to Jews and I will be on your asp until you stop.

For someone who would be happy to differentiate between Jews and Israelis how about you do that instead of making some absurd defective attempt to rationalize your stereotyping by referring to the US or Russia.

By the way, I criticize people for the exact same reasons when they stereotype all Americans or all Christians who support Israel or people who label all Muslims as extremist terrorists. Its problematic for any of us to use generalizations full of negative stereotypes. Read back what you said and good luck explaining how it is logical to argue that you stereotype Jews because you think others do it to Russians or Americans.

Brilliant logic.

Wow. You sure have a lot to say on the subject. After your initial post, I noticed that the Vancouver Sun uses "the Jews" when talking about Israel. Seems to be common usage, so you have a lot of river to push uphill to reverse that. I my saying "the Jews" when talking about Israel isn't 'bad' in your eyes, I'm not sure why you're getting so exercised about it here. Making way more out of it than it seems to deserve. I guess to deflect from the simple criticism that if Israel wants peace, annexing more and more land isn't the way to go about it.