More guns = more homicides

[Argus]

Read the Harvard study. This National Post article does not refute it one bit.

Why is Canada's homicide rate ten times higher than Norway's?

Edited July 31, 2012 by Argus

[guyser]

Why is Canada's homicide rate ten times higher than Norway's?

We're better shots?

I show 1.7 vs 0.68...wiki mind you...

Edited July 31, 2012 by guyser

[Argus]

We're better shots?

I show 1.7 vs 0.68...wiki mind you...

Those figures are homicides while the chart is talking about only homocides by firearm. That may be the difference.

The only point I was making is that there does not appear to be a strict correlation between gun poesssion and homicides.

Canada is listed as having 31 guns per 100 people with a homicide by firearms rate of 0.51

Norway has approximately the same gun posession but ls listed as having 0.05 homocides by firearm per 100k

Then there's Brazil, with only 8 firearms per 100 people but a rate of 18.1. So about 30% as many firearms but 30 times more homocides with firearms.

And I am not a gun not, by any means.

[guyser]

Those figures are homicides while the chart is talking about only homocides by firearm. That may be the difference.

The only point I was making is that there does not appear to be a strict correlation between gun poesssion and homicides.

Canada is listed as having 31 guns per 100 people with a homicide by firearms rate of 0.51

Norway has approximately the same gun posession but ls listed as having 0.05 homocides by firearm per 100k

Then there's Brazil, with only 8 firearms per 100 people but a rate of 18.1. So about 30% as many firearms but 30 times more homocides with firearms.

And I am not a gun not, by any means.

duly noted

[Guest Derek L]

Nice try but fail.

More goalposts moved.

The point is, dont be using stats you had no idea about when making your argument. In the last post of yours you amended how people died.

Clearly not a “fail” as my reference to the Quebec drowning of children was in response to Squid’s post referencing children dieing in gun related accidents:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=21188&st=105

Plus you want more lax gun control measures. Read the articles I posted that show what lax gun carrying measures does. In the past week it was easy to google up 3 little kids that were killed because of the lack of care that gun owners exhibit when gun owners are allowed "freedom".

So with that context brought forward, How many folks died in Quebec from drowning and firearms related accidents in 1999?

My Point exactly.

[guyser]

Clearly not a fail as my reference to the Quebec drowning of children was in response to Squids post referencing children dieing in gun related accidents:

I have no idea of your point . Certainly you cannot counter that more died from guns tha drowning, and you thought not.

Edited July 31, 2012 by guyser

[Guest Derek L]

I have no idea of your point . Certainly you cannot counter that more died from guns tha drowning, and you thought not.

No, my point was there’s a greater chance for Children to drown accidentally then die accidentally from a firearm (in Quebec)………..The numbers, provided by you, clearly back such a statement.

edit to add:

From your previous links:

http://www.mels.gouv.qc.ca/loisirsport/pdf/FaitsSaillantsNoyadeAnglais.pdf

Each year, there are,

unfortunately, some 125

water-related deaths in

Québec, most of which are

drownings.

http://www.prevention-violence.ca/English/PDFsEnglish/TheProblemFirearms.pdf

In 2003 there were 224 firearm deaths reported by the Coroner in Quebec including 166 suicides, 28 homicides, 10 accidents and 2 undetermined deaths.

7

Again, my point was in rebuttal to Squid’s reference to the “poor children” that one can google up every week dieing from careless gun owning parents…………~125 drowned vs. 10 shot

Yet we don’t have the same level of press coverage or debate here on drowning deaths………..Now why is that?

Edited July 31, 2012 by Derek L

[cybercoma]

Actually you moved the goalposts. Fine, I expected as much even if I am not one who subscribes to the vailidity of the thread title.

But if you are going to say pool drownings in Que, vs deaths by guns, then dont bring drownings in Canada as your rebuttal..

Its a de facto admission you were wrong.

Drownings as well as near drownings. Just to be clear. Now let's look at the number of people who use pools versus their deaths/near-drownings against the number of people who use guns and their deaths/injuries from guns. What do you suppose has a higher proportion?

Edited August 2, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Moving the goalposts?

As per the thread title:

In which case 28 homicides using firearms were Committed in 2003.……..not 206.…………Now if we assume said 115 deaths from drowning in Quebec are all accidents and contrast said number with firearms related accidents from your link over the same time, we’re talking about ~10-15 accidental firearms related deaths a year………

Apples to Apples

Sorry, but you're clearly lost if you think accidental drownings somehow correlate with accidental gun deaths. Nearly ALL drownings are accidental, while gun deaths are almost always intentional. You're not comparing apples to apples just because you're using the same word. You have to actually think about what it is that you're comparing.

[Guest Derek L]

Drownings as well as near drownings. Just to be clear. Now let's look at the number of people who use pools versus their deaths/near-drownings against the number of people who use guns and their deaths/injuries from guns. What do you suppose has a higher proportion?

One could reverse that and say how easy is it for an 6 year old to gain access to a pool versus a gun?

At the end of the day, many more Canadians drown to death then are shot……..Perhaps swimming should require a licence……..Pools a registry.

[Guest Derek L]

Sorry, but you're clearly lost if you think accidental drownings somehow correlate with accidental gun deaths. Nearly ALL drownings are accidental, while gun deaths are almost always intentional. You're not comparing apples to apples just because you're using the same word. You have to actually think about what it is that you're comparing.

But we were talking about accidents...........Over 80% of gun deaths in Canada are suicides, and of suicides, firearms are the third or fourth most common method in Canada……….Clearly we should restrict kitchen knives, tall buildings, sleeping pills, rope and enclosed garages.

[Spiderfish]

But we were talking about accidents...........Over 80% of gun deaths in Canada are suicides, and of suicides, firearms are the third or fourth most common method in Canada……….Clearly we should restrict kitchen knives, tall buildings, sleeping pills, rope and enclosed garages.

And to address the ~5% of homicides its fairly obvious that banning Batman movies would be a good place to start.

[cybercoma]

Thanks, Derek. More posts where you completely ignore utility. It's so inconvenient for your argument that you may as well just continue pretending it doesn't matter.

[Guest Derek L]

Thanks, Derek. More posts where you completely ignore utility. It's so inconvenient for your argument that you may as well just continue pretending it doesn't matter.

That what maters? In the above example, that in one year in Quebec nearly 12 times as many people will die from drowning then accidental firearms mishaps? You speak of proportion, well I’ll ask, how many Canadians have legal access to swimming pools or bodies of water compared to legal access to firearms? There certainly not like restrictions place upon swimming as legal guns…………..Clearly swimming is a greater potential danger, what with no restrictions and ease of access, to the people of Quebec then firearms…..

[cybercoma]

Actually, there are numerous restrictions and regulations on swimming pools to prevent drownings, but I don't see how that matters.

[Guest Derek L]

Actually, there are numerous restrictions and regulations on swimming pools to prevent drownings, but I don't see how that matters.

So, one can surmise that rules and regulations are not always (pardon the pun) bullet proof and that accidental deaths do happen….

Edited August 4, 2012 by Derek L

[cybercoma]

Of course we can, but that doesn't support your point at all.

[Guest Derek L]

Of course we can, but that doesn't support your point at all.

Why wouldn't it support? As demonstrated by Argus, there is no correlation between private gun ownership and homicides, and as demonstrated by myself, and confirmed by your mention of restrictions placed on swimming, like private firearms, accidents still happen………To add, ~80% of all firearms related deaths in Canada are suicides, yet firearms aren’t the top method, so should we be looking at further regulating manila rope and sleeping pills/prescription medication?

[cybercoma]

Look at me! I'm going to ignore the utility arguments again!

[Guest Derek L]

Look at me! I'm going to ignore the utility arguments again!

Utility arguments? Do people need to go swimming? Isn't it just a sport/hobby/past-time after all?

[Argus]

Why wouldn't it support? As demonstrated by Argus, there is no correlation between private gun ownership and homicides,

Actually, I said there is not a 'strict' correlation. There is some correlation, but the influence of culture, values, the degree of law enforcement and social disorder all come into play.

In any event, your talk of suicides and drownings is beside the point. I think we all recognize that people kill themselves or have accidents in any number of different ways, firearms being far from the most important. But people aren't worried about that. People are worried about some guy sticking a gun in their face. A woman was robbed at gunpoint last week at an ATM two blocks from my house in broad daylight. And this is a nice area. That concerns me a lot more than people I don't know drowning.

The kind of guy who has to resort to sticking up women at an ATM should not have the resources to get a hand gun. We're talking about bottom of the barrel scrapings here, and it should be more difficult to obtain a firearm for such people.

I continue to believe the only way to really deal with this sort of thing is HEAVY punishments for anyone caught with such a weapon (5 years in prison, no parole), and teams of undercover cops constantly trying to buy illegal hand guns, along with mandatory 10 year minimum sentences for selling them (1st offense).

[Guest Derek L]

Actually, I said there is not a 'strict' correlation. There is some correlation, but the influence of culture, values, the degree of law enforcement and social disorder all come into play.

My point exactly, guns don’t kill people, people kill people…………..As demonstrated in the article you posted, private firearm laws are less restricted in Canada then Mexico, yet statistically, you have a greater chance of being shot in Mexico…………..Quite obviously, the social climate in Mexico and Canada are not one in the same.

In any event, your talk of suicides and drownings is beside the point. I think we all recognize that people kill themselves or have accidents in any number of different ways, firearms being far from the most important. But people aren't worried about that. People are worried about some guy sticking a gun in their face. A woman was robbed at gunpoint last week at an ATM two blocks from my house in broad daylight. And this is a nice area. That concerns me a lot more than people I don't know drowning.

The kind of guy who has to resort to sticking up women at an ATM should not have the resources to get a hand gun. We're talking about bottom of the barrel scrapings here, and it should be more difficult to obtain a firearm for such people.

I agree, but what do you want to bet that said crook wasn’t one of Canada’s ~200k legal handgun owners……

I continue to believe the only way to really deal with this sort of thing is HEAVY punishments for anyone caught with such a weapon (5 years in prison, no parole), and teams of undercover cops constantly trying to buy illegal hand guns, along with mandatory 10 year minimum sentences for selling them (1st offense).

I agree 100%.

[eyeball]

I continue to believe the only way to really deal with this sort of thing is HEAVY punishments for anyone caught with such a weapon (5 years in prison, no parole), and teams of undercover cops constantly trying to buy illegal hand guns, along with mandatory 10 year minimum sentences for selling them (1st offense).

We've already been down this tired old road time and time again. All you'll do is increase the price of illegal guns and cause criminals to adapt and evolve. Survivors will become stronger, more ruthless and powerful and enforcers will become more corrupt and weak.

Oh and by the way, none of this will make an iota of difference when it comes to preventing normal people who become mentally ill from occasionally using their legal weapons to shoot dozens of people.

Apparently most people still believe mental illness is a life-style choice or an act of free will and the government is still willing to say "okay, if you say so".

Edited August 5, 2012 by eyeball

[Guest Derek L]

We've already been down this tired old road time and time again. All you'll do is increase the price of illegal guns and cause criminals to adapt and evolve. Survivors will become stronger, more ruthless and powerful and enforcers will become more corrupt and weak.

Oh and by the way, none of this will make an iota of difference when it comes to preventing normal people who become mentally ill from occasionally using their legal weapons to shoot dozens of people.

Apparently most people still believe mental illness is a life-style choice or an act of free will and the government is still willing to say "okay, if you say so".

Ahhh, but the alleged Colorado shooter also had enough homemade explosives in his apartment to level an apartment block…..Who’s to say if he didn’t have guns, he’d just have blown up the theatre…..Timothy McVeigh managed to kill over 150 people, with hundreds injured, with material one can purchase at a hardware store and gas station………..Or common items found on your average farm………..Let’s ban diesel and fertilizer!!!!! Think of the Children!!!!

[eyeball]

..Let’s ban diesel and fertilizer

Will you please get a grip, nobody's said anything about banning anything.