Quebec Images and Realities

[cybercoma]

That's what I've argued elsewhere on this board, some time ago.

Though, I have encountered public servants with such a thick accent from no part of Canada, and a command of the English language so abysmal, it made me highly doubt they had any ability to speak French at all.

Not everyone in the office needs to be bilingual.

[TheNewTeddy]

Generally, in any job where you might need to deal with anglos, the workers usually bi-lingual. It's not a solid rule, but as a general rule it is true.

The question however is if they'll actually do it or not. Seppies refuse sometimes.

[jbg]

The question however is if they'll actually do it or not. Seppies refuse sometimes.

What are "seppies"?

[cybercoma]

What are "seppies"?

He means separatists or sovereigntists.

[jbg]

Also important is the discrimination against non-Francophone families when it comes to enrolling children in French schools. Unless one of the parents is a Francophone, parents cannot enrol their children in a French school in order to have the best opportunity to learn French. There are French immersion options for such parents who make a decision to prioritise the learning of French for their children, but it's not nearly the same quality of education and immersion in French as a French-speaking school.

In what province? I thought Quebec, for example, requires one Anglophone parent for a child to go to an English school. Does it work the other way around too?

[g_bambino]

Not everyone in the office needs to be bilingual.

True.

[Tilter]

If only the French got the same service in the Rest of Canada. Of course they don't because it is only the French that bother becoming bilingual.

When applying for a Federal government job (Bilingual necessary as qualification) if a Francophone can answer the question ARE YOU BILINGUAL?? with his only English word "yes", he is in the eyes of the government, bilingual.

An Anglo, applying for the same job, having 6 years of university, with French Language as his major will not pass the bilingual qualification because he was born in Redcliff Alta not Ste Agathe PQ.

[cybercoma]

When applying for a Federal government job (Bilingual necessary as qualification) if a Francophone can answer the question ARE YOU BILINGUAL?? with his only English word "yes", he is in the eyes of the government, bilingual.

An Anglo, applying for the same job, having 6 years of university, with French Language as his major will not pass the bilingual qualification because he was born in Redcliff Alta not Ste Agathe PQ.

This is just complete and utter BS. Every word of it is a lie.

[jbg]

This is just complete and utter BS. Every word of it is a lie.

Proof? My understanding is that over the span of recent years since the Trudeau era that's largely true. Maybe things are better under Harper.

I wouldn't know.

[The_Squid]

When applying for a Federal government job (Bilingual necessary as qualification) if a Francophone can answer the question ARE YOU BILINGUAL?? with his only English word "yes", he is in the eyes of the government, bilingual.

An Anglo, applying for the same job, having 6 years of university, with French Language as his major will not pass the bilingual qualification because he was born in Redcliff Alta not Ste Agathe PQ.

Total bullshit.

[Peter F]

When applying for a Federal government job (Bilingual necessary as qualification) if a Francophone can answer the question ARE YOU BILINGUAL?? with his only English word "yes", he is in the eyes of the government, bilingual.

An Anglo, applying for the same job, having 6 years of university, with French Language as his major will not pass the bilingual qualification because he was born in Redcliff Alta not Ste Agathe PQ.

Pack of lies

[TheNewTeddy]

When applying for a Federal government job (Bilingual necessary as qualification) if a Francophone can answer the question ARE YOU BILINGUAL?? with his only English word "yes", he is in the eyes of the government, bilingual.

An Anglo, applying for the same job, having 6 years of university, with French Language as his major will not pass the bilingual qualification because he was born in Redcliff Alta not Ste Agathe PQ.

[[Citation Needed]]

[madmax]

When applying for a Federal government job (Bilingual necessary as qualification) if a Francophone can answer the question ARE YOU BILINGUAL?? with his only English word "yes", he is in the eyes of the government, bilingual.

An Anglo, applying for the same job, having 6 years of university, with French Language as his major will not pass the bilingual qualification because he was born in Redcliff Alta not Ste Agathe PQ.

did you eat it?

[madmax]

Proof? My understanding is that over the span of recent years since the Trudeau era that's largely true. Maybe things are better under Harper.

I wouldn't know.

How was breakfast?

[cybercoma]

Proof? My understanding is that over the span of recent years since the Trudeau era that's largely true. Maybe things are better under Harper.

I wouldn't know.

Go look at the requirements for any federal job. If you need to be bilingual, you have to test at a high efficiency for both languages. There's no pencil whipping the application because the person is francophone. The tests are equally stringent. Francophones just tend to be more skilled at English (the ones that learn it anyway) because they're inundated with and consume more English media than anglophones do with French media. If more anglophones grew up listening to French music, reading French websites, and watching French television after learning French in school (as francophones do with English media), then they would be more fluent. H

owever, French media in this country largely sucked up until the last 10 years. I bet the only French artist most anglophones can name is Roch Voisine. However, today there are some fantastic francophone artists like Cœur de Pirate, whose music could easily be played alongside any contemporary music like Adele on an anglophone station. In fact, she makes an appearance on Bedouin Soundclash's newest album singing in English, albeit with a thick accent.

For example:

But... anglophones as a rule don't bother exploring Québecois culture. It's completely foreign to us, yet it's right in our own country. And that was exactly what Pierre Trudeau was hoping to avoid with his two official languages legislation. He wanted anglophones to be reasonably familiar with the French language (making it mandatory in schools and whatnot), so that Québec won't become a "ghetto" within Canada.

By this measure, Trudeau failed, as the Rest of Canada still completely misunderstands and takes for granted our shared heritage and Québecois culture.

[Moonbox]

However, French media in this country largely sucked up until the last 10 years. I bet the only French artist most anglophones can name is Roch Voisine. However, today there are some fantastic francophone artists like Cœur de Pirate, whose music could easily be played alongside any contemporary music like Adele on an anglophone station. In fact, she makes an appearance on Bedouin Soundclash's newest album singing in English, albeit with a thick accent.

French media is still bad, particularly the Quebecquois stuff. Television is just aweful, and they almost all watch the English stuff themselves, both here and in Europe. For music, there's a smattering of reasonably talented artists, but most of the stuff that actually finds itself outside of francaphone borders is just electronica trash and sex-appeal girl-pop.

Personally, I would love to find more good French music to listen to. I love the language (real French not the butchered Quebec-slang) but it's not easy to find at all.

[Argus]

The French founded Canada, but they lost and had they lost to the USA there would be no rights to a French culture in North America. They got lucky.

The French didn't found anything. There was a French colony here. Then the English established theirs. There was a war, the French lost. About a hundred years later, Canada was founded.

[Argus]

That's the second time this claim has been poffered in this thread. Is there, however, any supporting evidence to be shown?

Realistically, how would you get proof? You would have to undertake a study, not just of the written tests, but of the oral tests, the results of which are more judgmental on the part of the person giving the test. Ie, if you go before one tester, you pass, a different tester, you fail. In my experience, the oral tests are the ones most people fear.

[Argus]

The claim is that French is more grammatically difficult with all of its tenses, ignoring the massive amount of irregular verbs and verb constructions we have in English.

I've taken French. Have you? Any number of French teachers I've encountered have said that French is more complex to learn than English. English is more intuitive, and we don't use most of the tenses. Also, the tenses have less affect on the words being used. Masucline and Feminine verbs in French have far more pronunciation differences, and then you have the various accents (the written ones).

At the end of the day, anglophones don't learn French because they don't have to. If they were as fluently bilingual as francophones, who have had to learn English out of necessity in many cases, they would have all the same opportunities.

Yes, but the point is that because most Anglos live in areas where there is no use of French, they don't use it, and so we don't have the same opportunities. By the way, the number of Quebecers who are bilingual is greatly diminished from years ago. Vast swaths of Quebec contain people who are no more bilingual than the people of London or Edmonton. This means that the public services draws on a very narrow base of people. The inevitable result is a far less capable work force.

The problem is the argument that the opportunities unfairly benefit francophones. They don't. They benefit the bilingual.

That's a strange argument. Its like saying that jobs which require one to be fluent in Gaelic don't unfairly benefit the Irish.

If francophones in a larger proportion to their population are learning English, then the benefit of these jobs going to them is a pittance for the struggle they face maintaining their language and culture on a mainly English continent.

I know a lot of Francophones. Not one of them has ever 'struggled' to maintain the French language. Yet most of them benefit by getting jobs with the government, and then being promoted, in some cases well above their skill level. I've seen people who could barely function at a clerical level being repeatedly promoted simply because there are so few bilingual people available. The HR system in the public system is becoming one where competence really is not a requirement. In my particular agency they're even doing away with tests in favor of what they call "competencies". If you can write out a single event where you demonstrated, for example, teamwork and cooperation, or customer service, just one, then you gain that 'competency'. If you have all the competencies listed on a competition notice, you are almost automatically in the hiring pool.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Argus

[Argus]

That's what I've argued elsewhere on this board, some time ago.

Though, I have encountered public servants with such a thick accent from no part of Canada, and a command of the English language so abysmal, it made me highly doubt they had any ability to speak French at all.

I too have encountered immigrants whose ability to communicate is astonishingly poor. How they managed to pass oral tests is beyond me. Some are decent enough in English (or French) in writing, but abysmal in speaking. This is a particular problem for Asians, for some reason. Their written English is nearly perfect, better than most bilingual Francophones, but try talking to them in person and you struggle to understand anything they've said. They particularly drive Francophones nuts, btw.

[TwoDucks]

Realistically, how would you get proof? You would have to undertake a study, not just of the written tests, but of the oral tests, the results of which are more judgmental on the part of the person giving the test. Ie, if you go before one tester, you pass, a different tester, you fail. In my experience, the oral tests are the ones most people fear.

Well, if there's no proof, then it's an opinion and should be treated as such.

[cybercoma]

Realistically, how would you get proof? You would have to undertake a study, not just of the written tests, but of the oral tests, the results of which are more judgmental on the part of the person giving the test. Ie, if you go before one tester, you pass, a different tester, you fail. In my experience, the oral tests are the ones most people fear.

Validity (actually tests for the skills/knowledge/abilities you're looking for) and reliability (results are repeatable) are the two most important factors in creating tests. I find it hard to believe that these language tests have as little reliability as you claim.

[cybercoma]

That's a strange argument. Its like saying that jobs which require one to be fluent in Gaelic don't unfairly benefit the Irish.

I was about to logoff because my eyes are killing me right now, but I wanted to address this.

Your metaphor is false.

To translate your metaphor to our context, you're saying that the jobs require people to be fluent in French, so they unfairly benefit the French.

That's not the case.

The jobs require people to be fluently bilingual, not French. A unilingual francophone would be just as likely to get the job as a unilingual anglophone, that is they wouldn't.

[TheNewTeddy]

The share of Quebeckers who know English is much much higher than the share of non-Quebeckers who know French.

It's not their fault for learning a second language.

[jbg]

How was breakfast?

Good. I had some of the Canadian-packed salmon I bought duty free at the Autoroute 55/I-91 border for breakfast, and a Quebec meat pie I bought at the IGA in Beaupre for lunch.