Social Justice

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2012

You make some very interesting points.

Why thank you. Are you new here ? Seems to me we had a poster named Canuckistan but maybe I saw that poster on another board.

But to say people whine (for no good reason presumably) but govt services are behind the times seems contradictory.

Yes, it's contradictory and I meant that. People do whine and expect too much, and government also sometimes does too little. I think both of those things are a symptom of a gap that needs to be addressed.

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2012

Some do get tired of whining and start taking matters into their own hands. That's when governments really start reacting.

This is why the whining itself is a problem, whether or not it's justified. How much can you convince people to take matter in their own hands when they're well-fed and well entertained, though ? You can do it, but it's likely harder.

It's ability to perceive is what's lacking, as is our ability to react to it's inabilities.

Yeah, but you're not going to get a revolution over long lines at the Drivers License bureau. You had your livelihood directly managed by government so you're more POd than most. Even then, the mismanagement in your case seemed to be subordinate to the bad job they did at communicating, engaging with the people they were serving and engendering trust.

Canuckistani · May 28, 2012

Why thank you. Are you new here ? Seems to me we had a poster named Canuckistan but maybe I saw that poster on another board.

Yes, it's contradictory and I meant that. People do whine and expect too much, and government also sometimes does too little. I think both of those things are a symptom of a gap that needs to be addressed.

I am new here. I think I saw reference to that Canuckistan too, and thought oh, oh. But, the name just popped into my head. Hope I don't get held to Canuckistan's povs.

I didn't see a place here for introductions, or I would have done so. Might be a good section to add.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Canuckistani

g_bambino · May 28, 2012

Nope it won't happen. Depending on what you mean by equality it's certainly worth striving for. True equality under the law, for instance. Are you equal under the law when one person can afford a top lawyer and another can't?

There are some things we can strive to make as equally available or applicable as possible, but with the knowledge that absolute equality will never be attained. There are other things we shouldn't even try to force into some kind of equilibrium, and some we simply cannot affect, even if some (oddly) want to, like intelligence or physical features.

eyeball · May 28, 2012

This is why the whining itself is a problem, whether or not it's justified. How much can you convince people to take matter in their own hands when they're well-fed and well entertained, though ? You can do it, but it's likely harder.

Well, given the inherent unsustainable nature of our present economy and governance the numbers of well fed and well entertained are dwindling so...there's hope in a twisted inverted way there I suppose. Misery loves company, speaking of axioms.

Yeah, but you're not going to get a revolution over long lines at the Drivers License bureau. You had your livelihood directly managed by government so you're more POd than most. Even then, the mismanagement in your case seemed to be subordinate to the bad job they did at communicating, engaging with the people they were serving and engendering trust.

All of these were further subordinate to our local inability to mobilize the number of Canadians it would have taken to force our government to stop it's mismanagement. You don't have to remind me how ineffective squeaking and whining is. I'm just left wondering how many fishery and forestry regions will have to collapse in this country before you city folk take notice? There's that canary in a coal mine thing again. I don't think enough Canadians appreciate just how incredibly damaging the social injustice of being so badly governed really is, but as I've often said, if the rest of our government is even half as bad as DFO it probably won't take long now to realize that.

There most definitely is some sort of revolution on the horizon, the race to the bottom we're all on will rebound sooner or later. Whether it results in the dead cat bounce of a conventional revolution or a new more optimistic trajectory is still up in the air but I'm betting on the former.

Canuckistani · May 28, 2012

There most definitely is some sort of revolution on the horizon, the race to the bottom we're all on will rebound sooner or later. Whether it results in the dead cat bounce of a conventional revolution or a new more optimistic trajectory is still up in the air but I'm betting on the former.

Dead cat bounce?

Edited May 28, 2012 by Canuckistani

eyeball · May 28, 2012

There are some things we can strive to make as equally available or applicable as possible, but with the knowledge that absolute equality will never be attained. There are other things we shouldn't even try to force into some kind of equilibrium, and some we simply cannot affect, even if some (oddly) want to, like intelligence or physical features.

The only thing we're all really entitled to is near total transparency and honesty within and from our government - the one thing that should be equally available to all is access to the information that the state has in it's possession.

This is not an unachievable feat with the technology that is available in this day and age. Do it and much of the inequality in the world will take care of itself and what remains will likely become more natural and tolerable.

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2012

Well, given the inherent unsustainable nature of our present economy and governance the numbers of well fed and well entertained are dwindling so...there's hope in a twisted inverted way there I suppose. Misery loves company, speaking of axioms.

Well fed and entertained are dwindling ? I don't think that's the case, but feel free to prove that wrong.

I'm just left wondering how many fishery and forestry regions will have to collapse in this country before you city folk take notice?

Maybe all of them ? If we're buying from offshore will anyone really care ?

As for "city folk" - neither the city mouse nor the country mouse noticed when my entire industry was slammed by the practice of offshoring. And today nobody even seems to know what that is. At least most Canadians have *heard* of fish stocks.

There most definitely is some sort of revolution on the horizon, the race to the bottom we're all on will rebound sooner or later. Whether it results in the dead cat bounce of a conventional revolution or a new more optimistic trajectory is still up in the air but I'm betting on the former.

I see this happening if they are unable to get effective world government online. Other than that, we're good to go.

eyeball · May 28, 2012

Dead cat bounce?

A stock market term that seems applicable to an economy or society following a revolution. Take the lacklustre spring in some of the Arab Springs for example. They seem to be falling again.

I think we've left it too long myself, the time to turn things around is behind us not ahead.

Canuckistani · May 28, 2012

The only thing we're all really entitled to is near total transparency and honesty within and from our government - the one thing that should be equally available to all is access to the information that the state has in it's possession.

This is not an unachievable feat with the technology that is available in this day and age. Do it and much of the inequality in the world will take care of itself and what remains will likely become more natural and tolerable.

Interesting. I had this idea years ago, not just govt transparency, but for everybody. If everybody has no secrets, then nobody has power from those secrets.

Will never happen, either your idea or mine. Knowledge is power, and somebody will always seek to hold that power for themselves. Who will enforce this transparency and honesty? And, another piece missing is we need a populace that's well enough educated to understand all this information - I doubt that's true even for the well educated people on this forum. Take the F-35. How many people have the expertise to judge the merits of that case. (Tho I do agree the govt should quit lying about the true cost.)

Canuckistani · May 28, 2012

A stock market term that seems applicable to an economy or society following a revolution. Take the lacklustre spring in some of the Arab Springs for example. They seem to be falling again.

I think we've left it too long myself, the time to turn things around is behind us not ahead.

No, I understand the term. When you said the former is likely, that would be the dead cat bounce in your list - or did you mean revolution?

eyeball · May 28, 2012

No, I understand the term. When you said the former is likely, that would be the dead cat bounce in your list - or did you mean revolution?

Yep, I think we're going down.

We're not all gonna die but I think many will.

Canuckistani · May 28, 2012

Yep, I think we're going down.

We're not all gonna die but I think many will.

Going down from revolution, or from exceeding the carrying capacity of the earth?

eyeball · May 28, 2012

Interesting. I had this idea years ago, not just govt transparency, but for everybody. If everybody has no secrets, then nobody has power from those secrets.

Will never happen, either your idea or mine. Knowledge is power, and somebody will always seek to hold that power for themselves. Who will enforce this transparency and honesty? And, another piece missing is we need a populace that's well enough educated to understand all this information - I doubt that's true even for the well educated people on this forum. Take the F-35. How many people have the expertise to judge the merits of that case. (Tho I do agree the govt should quit lying about the true cost.)

We don't need to be experts in everything the government proposes to do or not do as the case may be. I think if Canadians could see real transparency in the governance of the things that are germane to their own well being they would have reason to believe that holds true for people, areas and issues outside of their immediate experience or interest.

eyeball · May 28, 2012

Going down from revolution, or from exceeding the carrying capacity of the earth?

Both.

Canuckistani · May 28, 2012

Both.

On my bad days I agree with you. We certainly have way too many people on this planet that if anything seriously disrupts our energy driven economies, there's going to be a mass die off. Maybe a revolution before then. I hope we can use our intelligence to prevent that.

Canuckistani · May 28, 2012

We don't need to be experts in everything the government proposes to do or not do as the case may be. I think if Canadians could see real transparency in the governance of the things that are germane to their own well being they would have reason to believe that holds true for people, areas and issues outside of their immediate experience or interest.

I don't think we'll ever have real transparency. It begins during the campaign, when we expect candidates to lie to us. We won't elect somebody that says anything near the truth. Look at what happened to Joe Clark, and who we got in instead. And once in power, the govt is going to hang on to as much info as it can, and the mechanisms to make them reveal it are weak. Doubt that will ever change.

eyeball · May 28, 2012

Well fed and entertained are dwindling ? I don't think that's the case, but feel free to prove that wrong.

Maybe all of them ? If we're buying from offshore will anyone really care ?

We will when these sources are as mismanaged and over extended as ours.

As for "city folk" - neither the city mouse nor the country mouse noticed when my entire industry was slammed by the practice of offshoring. And today nobody even seems to know what that is. At least most Canadians have *heard* of fish stocks.

I noticed for what it's worth.

I see this happening if they are unable to get effective world government online. Other than that, we're good to go.

Interestingly enough I only think this'll happen once we have thousands of bioregional authorities managing their own affairs.

eyeball · May 28, 2012

I don't think we'll ever have real transparency. It begins during the campaign, when we expect candidates to lie to us. We won't elect somebody that says anything near the truth. Look at what happened to Joe Clark, and who we got in instead. And once in power, the govt is going to hang on to as much info as it can, and the mechanisms to make them reveal it are weak. Doubt that will ever change.

Not until its smashed to pieces, no.

Canuckistani · May 28, 2012

Not until its smashed to pieces, no.

You'll likely get a new boss, same as the old boss.

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2012

Interestingly enough I only think this'll happen once we have thousands of bioregional authorities managing their own affairs.

That makes sense to me, as long as an overarching authority ensures that the overall supply is well managed.

The other points you made are fair too.

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2012

You'll likely get a new boss, same as the old boss.

That point doesn't acknowledge that there's such a thing as forward direction and progress. The countries that didn't have democracy are now demanding democracy. The countries that have democracy will soon demand open government and real accountability.

eyeball · May 28, 2012

You'll likely get a new boss, same as the old boss.

Probably but we can always hope.

eyeball · May 28, 2012

That makes sense to me, as long as an overarching authority ensures that the overall supply is well managed.

The other points you made are fair too.

Overall supply of what? A verifiable, auditable trail of honesty and transparency come to my mind - an example of how to live and coexist with one another.

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2012

Overall supply of what? A verifiable, auditable trail of honesty and transparency come to my mind - an example of how to live and coexist with one another.

Overall supply of the bio resources in question...

Or at least a world body of reporting and objective audit.