madmax Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 I retract it then. It isn't the first time I've seen it done in the last little while though (not by you). You're usually one of the smarter posters on here, so I was surprised. Holy Crap, I hope I don't do that subconciously. Now you got me looking back at my posts... small for small C for Conservative Doh.... If I have ever done that ... I also Apologise.... erm, and I may do it again, but it would never be on purpose or as a slur... just an error of sorts. it would be like someone saying MadMax :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 So then they better get their butts to the table and figure something out with their work force because those wildcat strikes are killing Air Canada right now lot of good the government did there. What if what they figure out for their workforce is to lay off many and reduce wages and benefits to a few remaining? Would you support that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Im not in a union, and I never have been, and I know that sometimes they take things too far. But the right to collectively bargain and the right to strike have been absolutely essential to our society. Without them theres no middle class, no safe working conditions, no limits to hours worked per day, no overtime pay... nothing. limits on hours worked, safeworking conditions and overtime pay are all leguislated where I live ad have no connection to union membership. Is it different where you are?If ypou support the rights of humans to collectively bargain, do you also support the right to refuse to be part of a collective bargaining unit, have the right to refuse all group negotiated wages/benefits and have the right to negotiate your own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 So labor might get 45% of revenue and ownership might get 55%. In this scenario both "sides" have a direct stake in growing the total size of the pie. Theres still labor disputes though... over the size of the pieces... hmmmmOnly works if labour comes up with 45% of the capital too, otherwise they are getting a massively disporportionate slice. If anybody wants to take a big chunk of profit, they have to also take a big chunk of loss. Are you willing to work for nothing some years in the hope of getting extra other years- after also investing your life savings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) limits on hours worked, safeworking conditions and overtime pay are all leguislated where I live ad have no connection to union membership. Is it different where you are? If ypou support the rights of humans to collectively bargain, do you also support the right to refuse to be part of a collective bargaining unit, have the right to refuse all group negotiated wages/benefits and have the right to negotiate your own? My contract states OT is after 40 hours worked... The province of Otario's minimum is 44 hours... Hmmm...Do I support compulsary union membership??? No!! And I've laid out many times here how the law operates in Ontario (and every other province,as far as I know) and how much of a canard the "forced union membership" arguement by the anti-union crowd is. So,are you really asking if I support the current law,known as "Agency Shop" or do I support your thinly veiled attempt at supporting legislated union busting known colloquially "Right to Work"... I support "Agency Shop" as it leaves the union local in tact even though individuals can opt out of membership,although they do get to partake of all negotiated wage and benefit increases... Edited May 25, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 My contract states OT is after 40 hours worked... The province of Otario's minimum is 44 hours... Hmmm...Do I support compulsary union membership??? No!! And I've laid out many times here how the law operates in Ontario (and every other province,as far as I know) and how much of a canard the "forced union membership" arguement by the anti-union crowd is. So,are you really asking if I support the current law,known as "Agency Shop" or do I support your thinly veiled attempt at supporting legislated union busting known colloquially "Right to Work"... I support "Agency Shop" as it leaves the union local in tact even though individuals can opt out of membership,although they do get to partake of all negotiated wage and benefit increases... You are forced to join unions in Ontario? How despicable. In Alberta, you are forced to pay union dues no matter how useless they are and confrontational the situation may be. All workers -not just members- are also forced to submit to the shitty agreements negotiated by self serving union leaders. It is a disgrace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) You are forced to join unions in Ontario? How despicable. In Alberta, you are forced to pay union dues no matter how useless they are and confrontational the situation may be. All workers -not just members- are also forced to submit to the shitty agreements negotiated by self serving union leaders. It is a disgrace. How is one "forced" to join a union under Agency Shop guidelines??? Please explain??? By the way,it's clear your a labour law expert so I doubt you'll have to google it or have me explain it to you,right? Edited May 25, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vendetta Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 I hope all the unions will band together with the rest of the workers for a full out general strike. Bring Harperland crashing down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Only works if labour comes up with 45% of the capital too, otherwise they are getting a massively disporportionate slice. If anybody wants to take a big chunk of profit, they have to also take a big chunk of loss. Are you willing to work for nothing some years in the hope of getting extra other years- after also investing your life savings? No it works if labor is roughly 45% of whats involved to produce the product. If anybody wants to take a big chunk of profit, they have to also take a big chunk of loss. Are you willing to work for nothing some years in the hope of getting extra other years- after also investing your life savings? Thats the whole point of distributing revenue in that way. The workers DO make less money in slow years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 limits on hours worked, safeworking conditions and overtime pay are all leguislated where I live ad have no connection to union membership. Is it different where you are? If ypou support the rights of humans to collectively bargain, do you also support the right to refuse to be part of a collective bargaining unit, have the right to refuse all group negotiated wages/benefits and have the right to negotiate your own? limits on hours worked, safeworking conditions and overtime pay are all leguislated where I live ad have no connection to union membership. Is it different where you are? Yeah they are legislated now in some places because workers got organized and fought for those things. They were not before that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 limits on hours worked, safeworking conditions and overtime pay are all leguislated where I live ad have no connection to union membership. Is it different where you are? If ypou support the rights of humans to collectively bargain, do you also support the right to refuse to be part of a collective bargaining unit, have the right to refuse all group negotiated wages/benefits and have the right to negotiate your own? I support their right to vote to form a Union. Which would require a Majority Vote. You have the right to Decertify a Union also majority vote. I believe in human rights but I cannot opt out of the decisions by the democratically elected federal government which governs with less then 40% support. I cannot opt out to pay taxes to this government. I have no idea how an employee could opt out of negotiated clean air & ventilation. As for legislative safe working conditions.... Good lord man, I would rather sit down with a Union and work out safe conditions then have someone bureaucrat from the MOL show up and start making decisions for the company. That my friend...can often be a nightmare that ticks off everyone involved. Employees are the ones who know their jobs better then anyone else. Employers are the ones sitting on the liablility hotseat. While some employers are very clued into their operations.... many are not and have no idea what risks are being taken or even worse, what solutions a government official can cone up with. Communication is the key to increasing workplace performance and safety. Dictatorships often are ruled with an iron fist, but many times they are inefficient, have high turnover, poorer quality, but are able to operate through some shrewd business deals. That means they are only good at one portion of their business and can improve. I also find similar conditions in monopoly/Oligopoly power. Most businesses are essentially dictatorships, monopolies or oligopolies. Small business often being the exception, but they also have the closest communications to their workforce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 No it works if labor is roughly 45% of whats involved to produce the product. I guess you don't understand what is required to establish a business.Hint: it takes capital investment, not just ongoing operating costs like labour and materials. Oh, and the return on your labout investment is called a salary or wages. If you also want a big chunk of the profits on top of that, you'll have to do more than just work for 40 hours a week and you'll have to do more than just complain. You'll have to cough up a proportionate chunk of the capital, and there is no return guaranteed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 i would hate to see what our country would look like without the unions to protect the little guy. i talk regularly with some cupe guys and can honestly say i wished those guys were running the country. they truly care about the small guy like myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) I guess you don't understand what is required to establish a business. Hint: it takes capital investment, not just ongoing operating costs like labour and materials. Oh, and the return on your labout investment is called a salary or wages. If you also want a big chunk of the profits on top of that, you'll have to do more than just work for 40 hours a week and you'll have to do more than just complain. You'll have to cough up a proportionate chunk of the capital, and there is no return guaranteed. Have you looked up Agency Shop yet,or are you still forwarding the free marketeer's canard of compulsary union membership??? I say looked up because it's clear you didn't understand what the framework really is... Edited May 25, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 are you still forwarding the free marketeer's canard of compulsary union membership??? Are you still wanking on about your strawman?Are you pretending to teach me something I know, common knowledge for anybody over 14? How wonderful for me, I am not forced to join the union! But I am required to pay the dues and abide by terms of employment negotiated by some asshole you love. In your world, I enjoy the benefits negotiated by your brothers and sisters. In mine, I am forced to be underpaid for my services and denied any negotiating options due to your actions. We can all get laid off together, somehting to look forward to. I don't need or want your heavyhanded paternalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Are you still wanking on about your strawman? Are you pretending to teach me something I know, common knowledge for anybody over 14? How wonderful for me, I am not forced to join the union! But I am required to pay the dues and abide by terms of employment negotiated by some asshole you love. In your world, I enjoy the benefits negotiated by your brothers and sisters. In mine, I am forced to be underpaid for my services and denied any negotiating options due to your actions. We can all get laid off together, somehting to look forward to. I don't need or want your heavyhanded paternalism. Nope...You still don't get it... If one does not want to be a member of a union under Agency Shop provisions,they don't have to... They can have their dues redirected to,for example,a charity of their choice (and get the resulting tax break for a charitable donation),but,this is done under the express knowledge that that person is declining representation.... In otherwords,they are on their own if they get into trouble with management... What you really want is legislated union busting,under the obvious provisions in RTW legislation,under the guise of "personal freedom"... Of course,the NAM,The National Right To Work Committeee,The Koch Bros. etc. thank you for your corporate sycophancy and you corporate rhetoric in support of their artificial wage and benny suppression plan...All under the guise of "personal freedom"... Hey,enjoy the self induced poverty and your submission to authority complex... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudius Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 The only answer the CPC ever seems to have to a strike is to legislate back to work. From a historical standpoint this is the only thing any government seems to do when it comes to Canada Post, but after the third (is it the forth?) time it gets pretty stupid. Sooner or later you have to address the problems behind the strikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 The only answer the CPC ever seems to have to a strike is to legislate back to work. From a historical standpoint this is the only thing any government seems to do when it comes to Canada Post, but after the third (is it the forth?) time it gets pretty stupid. Sooner or later you have to address the problems behind the strikes. Well stated Claudius.That's the issue though, Harper and his acolytes don't want to address the real issue. Their primary concern is enabling their corporate friends with measures to lower wages while giving them more and more tax breaks...at the working class's expense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Well stated Claudius. That's the issue though, Harper and his acolytes don't want to address the real issue. Their primary concern is enabling their corporate friends with measures to lower wages while giving them more and more tax breaks...at the working class's expense. Of course it is...This is by design... "We must emulate the Chinese model of Authoritarian Capitalism to compete with the pathetic standard of living they have!"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Of course it is...This is by design... "We must emulate the Chinese model of Authoritarian Capitalism to compete with the pathetic standard of living they have!"... watch what you say. china will soon be the greatest country on earth. they know how to do things right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 watch what you say. china will soon be the greatest country on earth. they know how to do things right. Authoritarian Capitalism (see: The Modern Face of Fsscism) as a good thing...How the worm had turned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Authoritarian Capitalism (see: The Modern Face of Fsscism) as a good thing...How the worm had turned... china is a successful communist empire. obama is doing all he can to bring the usa back to prominence but he was left a mess by bush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 china is a successful communist empire. obama is doing all he can to bring the usa back to prominence but he was left a mess by bush. Wrongo... China embraced Capitalism after the Soviet empire collapsed... No authoritarian economic theory had ever worked... The Chinese version of Mussolini's Fascism (see Authoritarian Capitalism) won't work long term either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socialist Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Wrongo... China embraced Capitalism after the Soviet empire collapsed... No authoritarian economic theory had ever worked... The Chinese version of Mussolini's Fascism (see Authoritarian Capitalism) won't work long term either... i wish you could come to one of my classes. my prof would have a field day with a amateur like you. my prof puts all right wingers like you in their place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudius Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 china is a successful communist empire. Really. Then why are they A; starving and B;considered a "developing nation" by Kyoto? Communist? Mmmmm, not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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