Rebuilding the Liberal Brand

[punked]

Nice revisionist history.

Everything he said was true and he didn't even talk about how they just passed their debts on to the provinces.

[Smallc]

Who's revising? Over $50B was raided from EI alone, and nearly that much was left unpaid in health, education, infrastructure, and defense obligations.

Health, education, and infrastructure are not federal responsibilities. Defence spending was already on the way down. You and punked can try to use your partisan shields to revise history all you wan. You're wrong. No federal obligations went unmet. If you're going to say otherwise, prove it.

[WWWTT]

Health, education, and infrastructure are not federal responsibilities. Defence spending was already on the way down. You and punked can try to use your partisan shields to revise history all you wan. You're wrong. No federal obligations went unmet. If you're going to say otherwise, prove it.

Well OK then lets do some simple math.

Health care,education and infrastructure account for how much of total government expenditures(all levels of government)?70%,75% or 80%?But does the federal government not take in the greatest amount of revenue?I just did my taxes recently and the federal portion was unquestionably the highest ratio.In Ontario they do take in less for the HST however I do believe that the feds have more sources of revenue.And then there are property taxes to help with municipal level spending and education.

Obviously for there to be a fair distribution of capital there must be transfer payments from the feds(expecially so since generating this revenue is dependant on provincial obligations!)

This is fairly obvious and it is hard to argue around the numbers.However Martin was justified in his actions and he did avoid making tax cuts and eliminated some tax write offs indirectly increasing taxes aswell as promising to return transfer payments gradually to previous rates.In addition he did make other cuts to spending.

WWWTT

[Smallc]

I don't disagree with you, but Bryan should. Conservatives, generally, don't support spending that isn't supposed to happen. I don't mind the sharing of costs between the provinces and the feds where there is agreement, but don't expect the taps to stay on when there's real financial problems, as there was in the early 1990s. Martin did the best he could with a bad situation, and it seemed to turn out well.

[Newfoundlander]

I find the Liberal Party has just drifted to far to the left and has not had a leader since 2006 that understood, or who was at least willing to speak about, economics. They need to stop this centrist mumbo jumbo and start looking at things from a more pragmatic view that reflects Canadians, whether it be considered left or right.

I found it odd last year during the Canada Post strike that while some Canadians were open to privatizing the crown corporation no party brought that forward, while this may be considered "right-wing" or "conservative" by some I think supporters of all parties would have been open to the idea.

Last year's platform never even mentioned when the party was going to balance the budget, even though they planned to raise corporate taxes. The number one issue since 2008 has been the economy and jobs but the Liberals haven't discussed it. I think their next leader should be someone with a background in economics or business. They should also end these big national program ideas and start brining in policies that represent each region and province. Instead of being against the Conservative's crime bill I would have liked to someone come out and say that it should be up to the provinces. Governments in western Canada, including the NDP government in Manitoba, were open to many aspects of the crime bill, while some other provinces were totally against it. From what I've seen the Wildrose Party in Alberta have been the best opposition party in Canada and the Liberals could learn a lot from their organization. You can go to the Wildrose website and watch video of policies, but the one thing they've done that I think is great for an opposition party is releasing their own provincial budget. They should how they would govern if elected and other parties should take notice.

While Bob the re-builder has been doing a great job the Liberals need probably a three election leader. If they had someone who was young enough to stay around for at least 10 years they'd likely have the longest serving leader which in my opinion can be very beneficial in an election.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Newfoundlander

[Bryan]

Health, education, and infrastructure are not federal responsibilities. Defence spending was already on the way down. You and punked can try to use your partisan shields to revise history all you wan. You're wrong. No federal obligations went unmet. If you're going to say otherwise, prove it.

Are you seriously trying to claim that those responsibilities do not rely on Federal funds? That the provinces are Federally mandated to administer them? That Federal transfers to the Provinces that pay for such things were not held back? Is that your position?

[Smallc]

Are you seriously trying to claim that those responsibilities do not rely on Federal funds? That the provinces are Federally mandated to administer them? That Federal transfers to the Provinces that pay for such things were not held back? Is that your position?

So what if they do? The provinces can pull out of any of the agreements. Transfers were reduced, yes, but so was everything else.

Still, I'd like to know how you would have balanced the budget at the time. Would you have raised taxes? Paul Martin didn't.

[Wild Bill]

So what if they do? The provinces can pull out of any of the agreements. Transfers were reduced, yes, but so was everything else.

Still, I'd like to know how you would have balanced the budget at the time. Would you have raised taxes? Paul Martin didn't.

Smallc, perhaps you've forgotten but in the late 90's the feds cuts to health care funding became a huge issue with the provinces. It was all that federal transfer money that kept the provinces involved in the idea of equal health care standards across the country. The cuts became so deep that some provinces began to question whether they should just pull out of any agreement with the feds and go their own way, giving them much more control over their own budgets. This is what finally stopped the depth of Martin's cuts to the provinces. The feds and particularly the Liberals have always considered having national health standards to be sacrosanct.

[Smallc]

And again, so? That didn't change the need for cuts in every area. You and Bryan are trying to paint the Liberal government of the 90s as un-fiscally conservative, when in reality, there's probably never been a government that was more so.

[punked]

And again, so? That didn't change the need for cuts in every area. You and Bryan are trying to paint the Liberal government of the 90s as un-fiscally conservative, when in reality, there's probably never been a government that was more so.

They only cut where the tax payers would have to pick up the tab anyway. They didn't change health care standards they just said "You pay for it provinces instead of us" that money was still taken from the tax payer. It just came out at the provincial level as opposed to the Federal level/ That money was still borrowed and because most the time provinces borrow from the Feds it is still debt on the Federal books if the provinces can't pay. It was all a great shell game by the Liberals to shift debt to provinces it is still the Canadian tax payer on the hook though.

[Wild Bill]

And again, so? That didn't change the need for cuts in every area. You and Bryan are trying to paint the Liberal government of the 90s as un-fiscally conservative, when in reality, there's probably never been a government that was more so.

Oh no, I would agree with you in general. I just didn't respect how they often pushed the pain onto the provinces along with any social backlash, instead of dealing more with their own spending.

It's easy to make someone ELSE do the dirty work! I don't see that they deserve the credit for that. They did do SOME of their own and for that only they had my approval.

[Smallc]

Oh no, I would agree with you in general. I just didn't respect how they often pushed the pain onto the provinces along with any social backlash, instead of dealing more with their own spending.

No, they didn't. The cut almost every part of government by between 10% and 40%. The only thing that wasn't touched was OAS/GIS. If not the entire government, where?

[cybercoma]

Does anyone think that Thomas Mulcair is going to eat the Liberal Party's lunch?

He came out swinging immediately after winning the leadership by saying to Peter Mansbridge at the convention, "the Liberals have a history of flashing left and turning right." He was saying there would be no co-operation with the Liberals and that the NDP is the only Left party in Canada. During question period today, he came out attacking the Conservative Party's economic policies, defining them as wasteful spenders that are blowing taxpayers' dollars for little in return. It has been less than 24 hours since he won and he seems to be off to a strong start.

[Smallc]

The Liberal party isn't a left wing party, so he's right. I'll be surprised if the Liberals die.

[Newfoundlander]

The Liberal party isn't a left wing party, so he's right. I'll be surprised if the Liberals die.

The Liberals have done a good job of posing as a left wing party recently.

[Smallc]

The Liberals have done a good job of posing as a left wing party recently.

Very true, and the fact that their former supporters, me included, have left them, says that they shouldn't be a left wing party.

[Newfoundlander]

Very true, and the fact that their former supporters, me included, have left them, says that they shouldn't be a left wing party.

Nope.

[August1991]

Anyone with even an ounce of pride would be ashamed to be associated with any of these parties.

People just hold their noses, and try to pick the least shitty one.

Welcome to modern democratic politics, 21st century style.

Choose!

----

Sorry, guys. There's no mushy middle. It's a jury room and you have to choose. Competitive guys like Mulcair and Harper have figured out a way to box Canadians in, to force us to choose.

The irony is that competitive Liberals have played this game for a century - and now others have figured out the game.

As you say, dre, political life is "holding your nose and picking the least shitty one". Laurier, King, Trudeau, St-Laurent all knew this. The surprise is that it took so long for others - Harper (and Mulcair) to learn this. Diefenbaker never learned this, and even Mulroney didn't.

Edited March 27, 2012 by August1991

[Newfoundlander]

So where does rebuilding start?

[August1991]

So where does rebuilding start?

Rebuilding?

The NDP is the government in Nova Scotia. The federal Liberal Party no longer exists west (or east) of Ontario. The federal Liberal Party is like the Bloc Québécois - it`s the Ontario Party. (More specifically, it is the Toronto Star party - just like the Bloc was the party of Le Plateau.)

Rebuild the federal Liberal brand? Rebuild the PQ brand?

----

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

[Newfoundlander]

The Liberals are the government in PEI.

[August1991]

The Liberals are the government in PEI.

Newfoundlander, I suspect that you don't quite understand what has happened in Canadian politics.

[Newfoundlander]

Newfoundlander, I suspect that you don't quite understand what has happened in Canadian politics.

What?

[August1991]

What?

No doubt Mikhail Gorbachev said the same in August 1991.

-----

Shakespeare has troubled me but some parts more than others. One part of a play (Julius Caesar) has always troubled me:

There is a tide in the affairs of men.

Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;

Omitted, all the voyage of their life

Is bound in shallows and in miseries.

Edited March 27, 2012 by August1991

[Newfoundlander]

No doubt Mikhail Gorbachev said the same in August 1991.

-----

Shakespeare has troubled me but some parts more than others. One part of a play (Julius Caesar) has always troubled me:

There is a tide in the affairs of men.

Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;

Omitted, all the voyage of their life

Is bound in shallows and in miseries.

Are you going to answer my question or just spew BS?