Native Extortion

[msj]

Name the band(s). Name 10 and I'll do my own research.

However, under third party management First Nations always come out worse than when they went in and spend decades getting out of the debt and burdens that third party managers get them into. It is a FACT.

I don't need to name the band because I have already made the point.

You just don't get it yet....

Oh, but I'm sure you just know so much and the rest of us know nothing...

[charter.rights]

You should pick up picket signs before you pick up rifles and torches. Violence would be a last resort if their best peaceful efforts fail.

That depends. Peaceful protesters are morally (and may be legally) justified to fight back a violent confrontation by police that violate their rights.

The G8/G20 fallout is a good example.

[charter.rights]

Natives are engaged in a PR battle. They are trying to shape public opinion so the government will be forced to give them what they want. A violant uprising would ensure they loose that PR battle and makes no sense for them - especially when faced with a government that ignores its own laws to avoid using violance on natives (e.g. caledonia).

Nope.

If Natives were in a PR exercise they would not be protesting in that manner they have. You can certainly say the last 10 years of protests haven't helped improve the public image of Aboriginal people. However, their brand of protest has been highly successful by interrupting the economy. That in turn squeezes us and we squeeze the politicians to do something about it.

Your mention of Caledonia is another myth. No laws were skirted, and no one that committed a crime wasn't charged. In fact there were many charges laid over the protests on both sides, and many of the protesters from both sides received conditional discharges. What most people (and that would include you now you have shown your hand) miss is that our Charter Rights are held higher than domestic law. The duty of the police in protests is to keep the peace, avoid inciting a riot by making rash arrests, and record and catalog the event for future evaluation and charges. That not only happened in Caledonia but at Tyendinaga, Akwesasne and Brantford. At the end of the day justice was properly served and the police act in a reasonable manner.

[charter.rights]

I don't need to name the band because I have already made the point.

You just don't get it yet....

Oh, but I'm sure you just know so much and the rest of us know nothing...

No. You made an insinuation based on a false premise - otherwise known as a fallacy argument. It has no merit until you make the proper citation, or decline your point. Backing up your claims is part of the terms and conditions you agreed to when you signed up. Get with the program or admit your assumption.

Edited January 26, 2012 by charter.rights

[msj]

No. You made an insinuation based on a false premise - otherwise known as a fallacy argument. It has no merit until you make the proper citation, or decline your point. Backing up your claims is part of the terms and conditions you agreed to when you signed up. Get with the program or admit your assumption.

I'll decline my point when you decline yours.

Backup your own claims, hypocrite.

Admit your own assumption.

Oh, and stop changing the goal posts while you're at it.

[Bryan]

Civil disobedience is as important to a functioning democracy as elections. The means to real in errant politicians lies with "The People" through such action.

You were talking about angry mobs and burning Parliament. That is a serious leap from civil disobedience.

[charter.rights]

You were talking about angry mobs and burning Parliament. That is a serious leap from civil disobedience.

The Burning of the Parliament Buildings in Montreal in 1849 was an important part of Canadian history and one of the primary reasons we live in a democracy and not an aristocracy.

"this was an existential moment of Canadian history, the formal birth of our instinctive politics of inclusion."

John Ralston Saul

....and it is applicable today as it was then. If a government gets out of hand, violating rights and trying make a dictatorship, then civil action is morally justified.

Edited January 26, 2012 by charter.rights

[charter.rights]

I'll decline my point when you decline yours.

Backup your own claims, hypocrite.

Admit your own assumption.

Oh, and stop changing the goal posts while you're at it.

Mine isn't an assumption. However, the ball is in your court. You made the claim, and when you provide the citation I will refute with proper counter-references. Put up or shut up.....as the saying goes.

Edited January 26, 2012 by charter.rights

[msj]

It isn't an assumption. However, the ball is in your court. You made the claim, and when you provide the citation I will refute with proper counter-references. Put up or shut up.....as the saying goes.

As I have already stated:

choose to disbelieve my experience all you want.

My point has already been established back on page 5 - here's a hint - smallc quotes it and replies to it.

[charter.rights]

As I have already stated:

My point has already been established back on page 5 - here's a hint - smallc quotes it and replies to it.

Nope. It doesn't work that way. You make a declaration, and your are REQUIRED under the "Rules and Guidelines" to back it up.

If you are stating a fact, be prepared to back it up with some official sources (websites, links etc)....Therefore, it is in your best interest to make sure that your post includes sufficient sources and contains a well-researched and well-organized argument.

So either back it up by providing verifiable references or admit you made it up.

[msj]

Nope. It doesn't work that way. You make a declaration, and your are REQUIRED under the "Rules and Guidelines" to back it up.

So either back it up by providing verifiable references or admit you made it up.

Wow, you really don't get it do you?

The claim made was that there are no consequences to bad management.

Third party management is prima facie evidence that that claim is not true.

Further proof of TPM being a consequence is that I will not divulge information that I personally have experienced because it is embarrassing for the Band in question that I have experience with who has gone through it and has come out of it with very good leadership. [The reason they have good leadership now is because the previous leadership were kicked out and have stayed out].

That is all I have claimed to prove - that there are consequences to bad management.

You can go on this strange crusade because I'm sure you have experience with every FN band in Canada.

Edited January 26, 2012 by msj

[charter.rights]

Wow, you really don't get it do you?

Further proof of TPM being a consequence is that I will not divulge information that I personally have experienced because it is embarrassing for the Band in question that I have experience with who has gone through it and has come out of it with very good leadership. [The reason they have good leadership now is because the previous leadership were kicked out and have stayed out].

That is all I have claimed to prove - that there are consequences to bad management.

Bullshit.

You have nothing. Your personal experiences are nothing but fantasy and innuendo.

Third party management does not work out to the betterment for First Nations. It is a fact, supported by the Auditor General of Canada in the former AG Sheila Fraser's last 12 years of reporting to Parliament.

Edited January 26, 2012 by charter.rights

[msj]

Bullshit.

You have nothing. Your personal experiences are nothing but fantasy and innuendo.

Third party management does not work out to the betterment for First Nations. It is a fact, supported by the Auditor General of Canada in the former AG Sheila Fraser's last 12 years of reporting to Parliament.

Once again - you can choose to disbelieve my experience all you want.

I know what I have seen because I have audited the numbers during and after TPM.

I suspect that the FN band I'm talking about never made it to the AG's list.

[charter.rights]

Once again - you can choose to disbelieve my experience all you want.

I know what I have seen because I have audited the numbers during and after TPM.

I suspect that the FN band I'm talking about never made it to the AG's list.

Bullshit.

Put up or shut up.

[Bryan]

The Burning of the Parliament Buildings in Montreal in 1849 was an important part of Canadian history and one of the primary reasons we live in a democracy and not an aristocracy.

John Ralston Saul

....and it is applicable today as it was then. If a government gets out of hand, violating rights and trying make a dictatorship, then civil action is morally justified.

You can't be serious. That was prior to confederation. 1849 was wild west. Large segments of the populations had little to no rights, many couldn't vote. Mob did rule because it was practically the only recourse.

Today we live in a civilized democracy. You absolutely can change what you don't like about your government. And doing so by getting involved is the only acceptable method. Take a look at the G20 footage to see how an uprising like that would be dealt with today. Nobody would just let it happen--you'd get beaten and hauled off without due process, without any respect given to your "rights". Byron Sonne is still in jail, and he's lost everything, and he didn't even actually DO anything, he just had possession of some questionable materials like a potato gun.

That was Ontario. Try an uprising in Alberta, and some one is just going to shoot you and everyone around will conveniently miss seeing who did it.

[Bryan]

Bullshit.

Put up or shut up.

If you ever did the same, your words might actually have meaning. Still waiting for proof of the multi-trillion dollar trust funds.

[cybercoma]

Once again - you can choose to disbelieve my experience all you want.

I know what I have seen because I have audited the numbers during and after TPM.

I suspect that the FN band I'm talking about never made it to the AG's list.

You're not saying your experience with 1-3 bands is enough evidence to say that third-party management is to the benefit of all First Nations, contrary to the Auditor Generals' reports, are you?

[msj]

You're not saying your experience with 1-3 bands is enough evidence to say that third-party management is to the benefit of all First Nations, contrary to the Auditor Generals' reports, are you?

Never claimed that.

I have claimed that bad management does lead to consequences (i.e. TPM).

I have claimed that I have personal experience where TPM has led to a good outcome and in another case the threat of TPM led to a better outcome than what was already occurring.

I do not claim that TPM is going to solve any problems nor do I claim that it does not have its own problems.

I also claim that people can disbelieve me all they want - you haven't experienced what I have and I haven't experienced what you have.

Now where's that <shrug> emoticon?

[charter.rights]

You can't be serious. That was prior to confederation. 1849 was wild west. Large segments of the populations had little to no rights, many couldn't vote. Mob did rule because it was practically the only recourse.

Today we live in a civilized democracy. You absolutely can change what you don't like about your government. And doing so by getting involved is the only acceptable method. Take a look at the G20 footage to see how an uprising like that would be dealt with today. Nobody would just let it happen--you'd get beaten and hauled off without due process, without any respect given to your "rights". Byron Sonne is still in jail, and he's lost everything, and he didn't even actually DO anything, he just had possession of some questionable materials like a potato gun.

That was Ontario. Try an uprising in Alberta, and some one is just going to shoot you and everyone around will conveniently miss seeing who did it.

The 1849 rebellion was a direct contributor to confederation and democracy in Canada. Without it we would likely still be an aristocracy. The civil action was justified in changing the direction of politics in Canada.

[DogOnPorch]

If revolts are natural then so is putting them down.

[guyser]

MPAC sets the property value assessment for properties and the municipalities set the mill rate. So the tax rate can change from municipality to municipality, and vary between commercial single family residential and rental properties.

Er no.

Commercial is subject to a different rate from single family homes , but rental homes (single dwelling) is the same as lived in family home.

[cybercoma]

rental homes (single dwelling) is the same as lived in family home.

It depends where you live.

[guyser]

It depends where you live.

Not in Ontario it doesnt.

[g_bambino]

If you ever did the same, your words might actually have meaning. Still waiting for proof of the multi-trillion dollar trust funds.

[fellowtraveller]

The claim made was that there are no consequences to bad management.

Third party management is prima facie evidence that that claim is not true.

Oh, it is true all right.

Third party management is evidence that management of resources by both government and First Nation has failed spectacularly. It doesn't happen overnight, it occurs only rarely and only after years of nobody doing anything to fix the problem. What are the consequnces to DIAND staff for their mismanagement? None, nobody gets fired for screwign up, the only way to get flushed is to be caught up in periodic federal downsizing games every 20 years of so. To the band? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The white guys in suits leave, scores are settled and the village returns to business as usual. The money still flows uninterrupted and there will likely be more of it now.