Some are more equal than others

[cybercoma]

There's perhaps the most important philosophical difference between us, CC.

I would ask, how much is the ADVANCEMENT of your society worth?

They didn't ask for our help "advancing" their society. They had their own religion, politics, and culture. How would you feel about the Taliban taking root here and helping us "advance" our spiritually bereft society?

[Wild Bill]

They didn't ask for our help "advancing" their society. They had their own religion, politics, and culture. How would you feel about the Taliban taking root here and helping us "advance" our spiritually bereft society?

That depends. You are judging the players of several centuries ago by the values of our time. That is hardly reasonable or even logical.

As for the Taliban doing the same, I think the comparison is absurd. Such a thing could never happen. The Taliban can only destroy, not create. Even their bullets and guns were invented by someone else. They are destructive parasites, nothing more.

It's possible that they could try, but once Canadians were roused I don't believe the Taliban would have a chance!

Outside of the religious schools, for which I share no guilt since I am not religious, wasn't alive when they were instituted, never had a chance to vote for them anyway and besides, they weren't run by the Church I was baptized in, the natives had the chance to join our culture. They have done so poorly because their culture on its own cannot survive in modern times without handouts. Reserves which have done well have adopted much of our culture. Those that haven't are not feasting on pemmican every night.

Those natives that have left the reserves have done as well or as poorly in mainstream Canada as any of the rest of us. Some better! Graham Greene is a fine actor and I'd give my eyeteeth to play guitar like Robbie Robertson or Derek Miller, who plays a Stratocaster, not a tomtom.

[cybercoma]

We did destroy a country. They had their own nations, political systems, and culture. We arrived and destroyed that, forcing them to join our culture and abandon theirs. I'm not judging them on our value system of today. I'm simply stating the reality of what happened. So here we are and you want to move past that with nothing more than an apology.

[Wild Bill]

We did destroy a country. They had their own nations, political systems, and culture. We arrived and destroyed that, forcing them to join our culture and abandon theirs. I'm not judging them on our value system of today. I'm simply stating the reality of what happened. So here we are and you want to move past that with nothing more than an apology.

Hey, I'm still waiting on an apology for my great-great-grandfather facing a Spanish Inquisition!

[DogOnPorch]

Hey, I'm still waiting on an apology for my great-great-grandfather facing a Spanish Inquisition!

Haida is a scary word to the tribes of Northern BC...lol.

Meh...cyber's comment suggests Natives were all united under a single banner with war unheard of before Europeans arrived. Many tribes were all too happy to take sides when it came to Europe's wars in the New World...when they weren't beating the crap out of each other.

Edited January 5, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[cybercoma]

I'm not sure how you can draw that conclusion when I said they had their own "nations".

[DogOnPorch]

You: We did destroy a country.

I'm telling you many natives helped out in colonial wars choosing sides...changing sides...changing back.

PLUS

As mentioned...the utterance of the words 'the Haida are coming' 150 years ago would have sent most natives in this area of BC fleeing for the hills.

[charter.rights]

There's perhaps the most important philosophical difference between us, CC.

I would ask, how much is the ADVANCEMENT of your society worth?

You have subscribed to 2 fundamental errors.

The first is the old age problem. You ~think~ we know better than natives about how to "cure" their problem. The problem is that WE are their problem is if we just stopped meddling in their affairs, they might eventually be able to sort it all out.

The second fallacy is that you assume that Canadian society would be an upgrade for Aboriginal people. I would disagree that it is. At best it would simply be a lateral move, trading problems of isolation and the residential school legacy for a worldview that condones violence as a means to an end, and for lack of support for our own children, alcoholism and substance abuse that is rampant not only in our poorest sectors but throughout the professions and upper class. We are in a society where all of our institutions are failing, and WE don't know the solutions to that.

In reality First Nations are casualties of our own failed empires. It we get rid of the scum of our societies it won't be long before First Nations benefit as well. The REAL problem is ~thinking~ the victims are to blame for their own failures.

[Guest Peeves]

They didn't ask for our help "advancing" their society. They had their own religion, politics, and culture. How would you feel about the Taliban taking root here and helping us "advance" our spiritually bereft society?

I have read of their religion(s), politics, and culture(s), I am not impressed.

Not that much is any worse than those calling them 'savages', but there was much violence between some tribes and some rather nasty rituals. Certainly natives are worse off (reservations-), than they might have been before the 'White Eyes" came, but that is not the case for all. Not the Huron or others raided by Iroquois. Not others captured to a life of slavery.

If you defend their loss, you must really defend what they have gained. You also have to accept their warts and what stood for culture and religion.

One such certainly compares with the old practices in some other religions one would unlikely be proud of today.*

Let's give the native their due, but let's be honest too. They practiced perhaps even vile (imho) traditions before the Europeans landed. The Christian's attempts at conversion possibly made the situation worse. ?

Even an eradication of the Huron by the Iroquois.

Raids, running the gauntlet, sure all culture and tradition and religion...

I think of an 'Indian' as a proud human being deserving of respect, still, I don't deny the practices of some that are repugnant then and now.

http://www.ashevillelist.com/history/mourning-war-raids.htm

*

"Human Wendigos

All cultures in which the Wendigo myth appeared shared the belief that human beings could turn into Wendigos if they ever resorted to cannibalism[2] or, alternatively, become possessed by the demonic spirit of a Wendigo, often in a dream. Once transformed, a person would become violent and obsessed with eating human flesh..."

Edited January 6, 2012 by Peeves

[cybercoma]

I'm telling you many natives helped out in colonial wars choosing sides...changing sides...changing back.

Yes they did. What's your point? There were many Nations living on the lands here. They were sharing their lands with the European "nations". They didn't expect them to claim it all.

[prairiechickin]

Treaty obligations are not "handouts" ... more like leasing fees for the land.

Who are you talking to?

And what's your excuse for teaching your poor young students false information again?

Because your opinion of the law is more important than the Supreme Court's view of the law?

Instead of telling them what to think (and being wrong) why not challenge your students to find evidence for/against your theory about Treaty Four?

Treat Four is not a lease, like all the numbered treaties it was a one time sale for all time. And last year when some Native students started telling me about only ceding the land "to the depth of the plow, I challenged them to go read Treaty Four and show me where that clause existed anywhere in that document. Quite simply, it doesn't, and they got a valuable lesson about not believing everything their leadership tells them.

[cybercoma]

I have read of their religion(s), politics, and culture(s), I am not impressed.

Not that much is any worse than those calling them 'savages', but there was much violence between some tribes and some rather nasty rituals. Certainly natives are worse off (reservations-), than they might have been before the 'White Eyes" came, but that is not the case for all. Not the Huron or others raided by Iroquois. Not others captured to a life of slavery.

If you defend their loss, you must really defend what they have gained. You also have to accept their warts and what stood for culture and religion.

One such certainly compares with the old practices in some other religions one would unlikely be proud of today.*

Let's give the native their due, but let's be honest too. They practiced perhaps even vile (imho) traditions before the Europeans landed. The Christian's attempts at conversion possibly made the situation worse. ?

Even an eradication of the Huron by the Iroquois.

Raids, running the gauntlet, sure all culture and tradition and religion...

I think of an 'Indian' as a proud human being deserving of respect, still, I don't deny the practices of some that are repugnant then and now.

http://www.ashevillelist.com/history/mourning-war-raids.htm

*

"Human Wendigos

All cultures in which the Wendigo myth appeared shared the belief that human beings could turn into Wendigos if they ever resorted to cannibalism[2] or, alternatively, become possessed by the demonic spirit of a Wendigo, often in a dream. Once transformed, a person would become violent and obsessed with eating human flesh..."

Wendigos existed in European cultures too.

That's neither here nor there though. You say you're not impressed with their culture, but with all do respect who f'ing cares what you think? Does that mean if another nation is not impressed with our culture that gives them the right to come here and eradicate it?

[DogOnPorch]

Does that mean if another nation is not impressed with our culture that gives them the right to come here and eradicate it?

A fallacy. There is no such thing as a right to a nation. Just the ability to defend your claim. This has been true throughout history and it is true now.

Edited January 6, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[prairiechickin]

Wendigos existed in European cultures too.

That's neither here nor there though. You say you're not impressed with their culture, but with all do respect who f'ing cares what you think? Does that mean if another nation is not impressed with our culture that gives them the right to come here and eradicate it?

What gave the Cree the right to come to what is now Saskatchewan armed with Brtish guns and wipe out the Gros Ventre in the early 18th century? The Cree stole that land from the Gros Ventre, then ceded it to Canada via treaty. At least we didn't subject them to genocide. That's just how it worked back then, might made right, and I don't see you crying any tears for the Gros Ventre. As I mentioned in an earlier post that nobody made a peep about, the only examples of genocide that I could recall in what is now Canada were Natives wiping out other Natives. But that is never mentioned by the pro-Native posters here -- All Indians Were Good, All White People Were Evil, right?

[charter.rights]

Treat Four is not a lease, like all the numbered treaties it was a one time sale for all time.

Nope. You obviously don't understand the depth of the treaties.

First Nations retained Aboriginal rights in the lands - to hunt, fish and harvest as they need on lands that had not been occupied. According to the Supreme Court of Canada, First Nations retain a sui generis title in the land. That is the reason why the SCoC held that First Nations had a right to be consulted BEFORE any further development that might interfere with their Aboriginal rights whether or not the government knew beforehand that Aboriginal people were concerned about the interference.

And by the way you should learn to take anything you read on the subject with a grain of salt. Most of what you have presented here is myth and innuendo. Had you been a real scholar you would have checked out details of your myths long before you repeated them here.

[charter.rights]

...the only examples of genocide that I could recall in what is now Canada were Natives wiping out other Natives.

Another huge myth. While there were disputes among different culture groups, mainly over hunting territory and resources, there was nothing nearly as brutal as what the Europeans had been doing to each other for eons. From torture for the fun of it, to Crusades to wars fought over the egos of Kings, the Europeans were a far more dastardly group than any First Nations pre-contact.

Of course you probably got your information from Coles notes. That is about as legitimate as you have been.

[prairiechickin]

Another huge myth. While there were disputes among different culture groups, mainly over hunting territory and resources, there was nothing nearly as brutal as what the Europeans had been doing to each other for eons. From torture for the fun of it, to Crusades to wars fought over the egos of Kings, the Europeans were a far more dastardly group than any First Nations pre-contact.

Of course you probably got your information from Coles notes. That is about as legitimate as you have been.

Tell you what, I'll let the people on this site decide which one of us has a better grasp of Canadian history. Or better yet, I'd invite them to go read any real Canadian history books to see which ones better reflect what I'm saying, and the nonsense you spout daily. I'd invite you to read these books, but you're too busy posting nonsense every day to actually read anything that disrupted your set-in-stone version of Native history. You sound like a parrot, you've got six things firmly implanted in your head and that's all there's room for. SQUAWAAAAK, Procalmation of 1763, SQUAAAAAAK, COVEWNANT of SILVER CHAINS, SQUAAAAAK Seventy Trilliion Dollars, SQUAAAAK Supreme Court of Canada -- for someone who claims to not be Canadian you sure seem to like the institutions of Canada when they rule in your favor.

[Guest Peeves]

Wendigos existed in European cultures too.

That's neither here nor there though. You say you're not impressed with their culture, but with all do respect who f'ing cares what you think? Does that mean if another nation is not impressed with our culture that gives them the right to come here and eradicate it?

I care what I think, and my thoughts are based on reading. If you don't care what I think please feel free to ignore me and read only that which you agree with. That's the simpleton's way and it's less stressful.

I read contradictory issues all the time about aborigines. I read claims of their being 'custodians of nature of traditions that respect animal and the land, (all hail Avatar and James Cameron.)

Then I read of buffalo being simply driven in herds over cliffs. "What is not disputed is that before the introduction of horses, bison were herded into large chutes made of rocks and willow branches and then stampeded over cliffs. These buffalo jumps are found in several places in the U.S. and Canada, such as Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump. Large groups of people would herd the bison for several miles, forcing them into a stampede that would ultimately drive many animals over a cliff. The large quantities of meat obtained in this way provided the hunters with surplus, which was used in trade. A similar method of hunting was to drive the bison into natural corrals, such as the Ruby site."

According to historian Pekka Hämäläinen, Native Americans also contributed to the collapse of the bison.[46] By the 1830s the Comanche and their allies on the southern plains were killing about 280,000 bison a year, which was near the limit of sustainability for that region. Firearms and horses, along with a growing export market for buffalo robes and bison meat had resulted in larger and larger numbers of bison killed each year by the white and mixed Native market hunters. A long and intense drought hit the southern plains in 1845, lasting into the 1860s, which caused a widespread collapse of the bison herds.[46] In the 1860s, the rains returned and the bison herds recovered to a degree.

I quite simply get tired of the one sided depiction of aborigines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_bison

But suddenly a greater threat was upon them all. The Iroquois were making ever deeper raids into Huron territory, their eyes on control of the fur trade. Since they could not make a deal with the Hurons, they decided to exterminate them. It was a deadly struggle. Many people were killed, captured and tortured. At the same time the new faith in Jesus was spreading rapidly everywhere throughout the nation.

Martyrdom

In March of 1649 the Iroquois launched a series of surprise attacks on the Huron villages and burned them to the ground. People young and old were slaughtered mercilessly. The Iroquois hated the Black Robes and the new religion even more than they hated the Hurons. A host of Huron Christians and their priests were captured and forced to run the gauntlet. Hundreds were horribly tortured to death.

Numerous stories have been handed on of these first Native martyrs for Christ. Men, women and children refused to give up their faith preferring torture and death to losing eternity. Their enemies were astonished at how they faced their deaths joyfully praising God. This persecution lasted about eighty years.

The nation scattered

Iroquois warriors wiped out the Neutral and the Tobacco people; they seemed unstoppable. The people made plans to flee. Fr. Chaumonot wrote how he paused to pray before the ruins of his chapel, his faced filled with pain. Ignace Onakonchiaronk, a staunch Christian, spoke to him.

Huron Holocaust

by Caroline Oochinapewis (Lorenz)

http://www.peace.mb.ca/00.Native/nlrnz03.htm

[charter.rights]

Tell you what, I'll let the people on this site decide which one of us has a better grasp of Canadian history. Or better yet, I'd invite them to go read any real Canadian history books to see which ones better reflect what I'm saying, and the nonsense you spout daily. I'd invite you to read these books, but you're too busy posting nonsense every day to actually read anything that disrupted your set-in-stone version of Native history. You sound like a parrot, you've got six things firmly implanted in your head and that's all there's room for. SQUAWAAAAK, Procalmation of 1763, SQUAAAAAAK, COVEWNANT of SILVER CHAINS, SQUAAAAAK Seventy Trilliion Dollars, SQUAAAAK Supreme Court of Canada -- for someone who claims to not be Canadian you sure seem to like the institutions of Canada when they rule in your favor.

Oh you poor twisted soul.

So this is a competition? You lose for knowing squat. If you are the kind of people teaching our young people, all I can say is Canada is doomed to boredom and delusion.

[charter.rights]

ut suddenly a greater threat was upon them all. The Iroquois were making ever deeper raids into Huron territory, their eyes on control of the fur trade. Since they could not make a deal with the Hurons, they decided to exterminate them. It was a deadly struggle. Many people were killed, captured and tortured. At the same time the new faith in Jesus was spreading rapidly everywhere throughout the nation.

Martyrdom...

That is the kind of Hollywood myth that has invaded real history. I'm not surprised YOU can't tell the difference. Nube.

Edited January 8, 2012 by charter.rights

[DogOnPorch]

Another huge myth. While there were disputes among different culture groups, mainly over hunting territory and resources, there was nothing nearly as brutal as what the Europeans had been doing to each other for eons. From torture for the fun of it, to Crusades to wars fought over the egos of Kings, the Europeans were a far more dastardly group than any First Nations pre-contact.

Of course you probably got your information from Coles notes. That is about as legitimate as you have been.

Tell that to the Qualicum, Mr Revisionist.

[prairiechickin]

Another huge myth. While there were disputes among different culture groups, mainly over hunting territory and resources, there was nothing nearly as brutal as what the Europeans had been doing to each other for eons. From torture for the fun of it, to Crusades to wars fought over the egos of Kings, the Europeans were a far more dastardly group than any First Nations pre-contact.

Of course you probably got your information from Coles notes. That is about as legitimate as you have been.

So tell me, what happened to the Gros Ventre?

[charter.rights]

So tell me, what happened to the Gros Ventre?

Like most Aboriginal people including the Hurons (Who were not the Hurons but the Wendat) in contact with Europeans the majority were wiped out by smallpox. Today they are part of the Blackfeet just as the remaining Neutrals and the Tobacco were adopted into the Iroquois Confederacy.

[prairiechickin]

Like most Aboriginal people including the Hurons (Who were not the Hurons but the Wendat) in contact with Europeans the majority were wiped out by smallpox. Today they are part of the Blackfeet just as the remaining Neutrals and the Tobacco were adopted into the Iroquois Confederacy.

Wrong, try again. Admit it, you'd never heard of these people before I brought them up. I know where they are, because I took the time to follow up their story. And the Huron were wiped out by disease, eh? So that whole massacre in the winter of 1648-49 by the Iroquios never happened? I guess whitey just made that up to make Indians look bad.

Edited January 8, 2012 by prairiechickin

[huh]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/01/07/rex-murphy-some-criminals-are-more-equal-than-others/