Some are more equal than others

[Guest Peeves]

http://www.nationalpost.com/search/index.html?q=smoke+sentence

Sadly I am never disappointed in my expectations of the liberally openhanded unequal treatment for Natives' behavior in breaking our laws.

It seems their/our history gives them 'get out of jail free cards.' The extent to 'that' consideration must be cautionary and circumspect but still meting out justice for the victim.

All too often the punishment is vacated or unreasonably reduced as in the referenced case..

This most recent case shows what violence a native can get away with in Ontario and it's sickening.

"CAYUGA, Ont. — For beating a non-native builder to within an inch of his life during the fiery native occupation in nearby Caledonia, a young aboriginal man was sentenced to less than two years in jail, plus time served – a punishment that leaves the victim’s family demanding an inquiry into how the courts treat First Nations offenders.

Ontario Superior Court Judge Alan Whitten cited Friday the sad legacy of residential schools and the disproportionately large population of incarcerated aboriginal offenders as reasons why he did not give Richard Smoke a harsher sentence for an attack he described as “senseless and vicious” and “just a notch below culpable homicide.”

Emphasis mine.

The reduced sentence for such a brutal attack – with a stick of lumber on a defenceless man that rendered builder Sam Gualtieri, 56, brain damaged – outraged the Gualtieri family."

[cybercoma]

The family isn't going to like what they get if there is an inquiry launched. Studies have already been done and Natives get harsher sentences for the same crimes as non-Aboriginal Canadians.

[Wild Bill]

The family isn't going to like what they get if there is an inquiry launched. Studies have already been done and Natives get harsher sentences for the same crimes as non-Aboriginal Canadians.

Ah CC, the family I'm sure couldn't care less about what happens in general. All they care about is that Smoke left their loved one with permanent brain damage and received a rather light sentence, apparently because of his race!

I know that if someone hurt me or one of my loved ones I could not be so charitable as to forgive him because someone 50 or 100 years ago treated someone of the same race as him poorly. I don't see people as races or tribes. I see them as individuals. As they treat me and mine so shall I respond. I would take my revenge against the specific individual(s) who had wronged me.

I cannot conceive of retaliating against an individual who had nothing to do with doing me harm, simply because he and the perpetrator were of the same race. Just as I cannot understand how Smoke could have done what he did to that old man. To me, it was just a naked expression of pure evil, no different than a southern cracker lynching some poor black man.

[Guest Peeves]

Ah CC, the family I'm sure couldn't care less about what happens in general. All they care about is that Smoke left their loved one with permanent brain damage and received a rather light sentence, apparently because of his race!

I know that if someone hurt me or one of my loved ones I could not be so charitable as to forgive him because someone 50 or 100 years ago treated someone of the same race as him poorly. I don't see people as races or tribes. I see them as individuals. As they treat me and mine so shall I respond. I would take my revenge against the specific individual(s) who had wronged me.

I cannot conceive of retaliating against an individual who had nothing to do with doing me harm, simply because he and the perpetrator were of the same race. Just as I cannot understand how Smoke could have done what he did to that old man. To me, it was just a naked expression of pure evil, no different than a southern cracker lynching some poor black man.

Summed with a good analogy.

[Guest Peeves]

The family isn't going to like what they get if there is an inquiry launched. Studies have already been done and Natives get harsher sentences for the same crimes as non-Aboriginal Canadians.

That's patently untrue.

More natives get sentenced for more crimes, but not to harsher, but to lesser sentences.

Natives suffer in pretty much every category where compared, but there is definitely a difference made in sentencing.

See last paragraph.

http://www.themarknews.com/articles/6526-aboriginal-incarceration-black-mark-for-canada

"In 1996, in an attempt to reduce the use of imprisonment, Parliament amended the Criminal Code to instruct judges that, in handing down sentences, “All available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances should be considered for all offenders, with particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders.”

Now I concede there would be little evidence that they get lesser sentences, but In my experience, as in this case,in a case where a child was left to freeze etc. I have seen the examples of lesser sentences imposed.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Peeves

[Guest Peeves]

That's patently untrue.

More natives get sentenced for more crimes, but not to harsher, but to lesser sentences.

Natives suffer in pretty much every category where compared, but there is definitely a difference made in sentencing.

See last paragraph.

http://www.themarknews.com/articles/6526-aboriginal-incarceration-black-mark-for-canada

"In 1996, in an attempt to reduce the use of imprisonment, Parliament amended the Criminal Code to instruct judges that, in handing down sentences, “All available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances should be considered for all offenders, with particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders.”

Now I concede there would be little evidence that they get lesser sentences, but In my experience, as in this case,in another case where a child was left to freeze etc. I have seen the examples of lesser sentences imposed.

There maybe USA jurisdictions where the opposite is true, but I maintain the Native violator here gets leniency and credit for being a Native. That may of course be warranted IF justice is done. It isn't in some cases in my opinion.

[charter.rights]

He'll be out in 9 months.

[cybercoma]

That's patently untrue.

More natives get sentenced for more crimes, but not to harsher, but to lesser sentences.

Natives suffer in pretty much every category where compared, but there is definitely a difference made in sentencing.

See last paragraph.

http://www.themarknews.com/articles/6526-aboriginal-incarceration-black-mark-for-canada

"In 1996, in an attempt to reduce the use of imprisonment, Parliament amended the Criminal Code to instruct judges that, in handing down sentences, “All available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances should be considered for all offenders, with particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders.”

Now I concede there would be little evidence that they get lesser sentences, but In my experience, as in this case,in a case where a child was left to freeze etc. I have seen the examples of lesser sentences imposed.

Did you mistake that for all Native offenders?

[CPCFTW]

Did you mistake that for all Native offenders?

Did you forget to read the very next clause of the same sentence?

[Bonam]

I know that if someone hurt me or one of my loved ones I could not be so charitable as to forgive him because someone 50 or 100 years ago treated someone of the same race as him poorly. I don't see people as races or tribes. I see them as individuals.

If only more people could see things this way, rather than through their politically correct racial filters. Oh well, I can only hope that some day our society escapes from under this present pall of abhorrent racism and truly treats people as individuals.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Bonam

[Guest Peeves]

He'll be out in 9 months.

This to me, is not justice. It asks for special treatment.

I'll be the first to concede that natives have been treated abysmally historically, but damnit, they should be subject to the same laws/penalties.

The goings on in Caledonia are a disgrace in so far as any even response to the violence and criminal activity by the province and the feds..

This is the other case that I referred to in the original post.

Father sentenced to 3 years for daughters' freezing deaths

Excerpts from attached link.

"The judge said he believes Pauchay, 25, doesn't understand his role in the deaths.

"It was my impression from observing him at the sentencing circle that Mr. Pauchay lacks insight into the reasons for his offending behaviour," Morgan said.

"I also note that Mr. Pauchay appears unable or unwilling to accept personal responsibilities for some of the problems he faces."

"Members of the aboriginal community weren't as willing to accept Morgan's decision. They said outside court they felt the suggestion from the sentencing circle had been ignored and putting Pauchay behind bars would do nothing to help him or the community move forward."

I suggest that same argument could be made many convicted of a crime, it's irrelevant.

http://www.thestar.com/article/597889

[Guest Manny]

I'll be the first to concede that natives have been treated abysmally historically, but damnit, they should be subject to the same laws/penalties.

Do we know for sure that other similar crimes perpetrated by non-natives don't get similar sentencing? Or are we seeing this one come to light, because it involves a native. It's an important question but difficult to answer.

[Guest Peeves]

Do we know for sure that other similar crimes perpetrated by non-natives don't get similar sentencing? Or are we seeing this one come to light, because it involves a native. It's an important question but difficult to answer.

There are no doubt other inadequate sentences meted out to non natives. My point is that our law states factors of native history is to be considered in the sentencing. I know of no other race where that applies.

I want Canadians that break the law to be judged equally, no more, no less.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Peeves

[Guest Manny]

There are no doubt other inadequate sentences meted out to non natives. My point is that our law states factors of native history is to be considered in the sentencing. I know of no other race where that applies.

I want Canadians that break the law to be judged equally, no more, no less.

Does not our law also consider factors of personal history of a perpetrator, family abuse, poverty, previous criminal record? Yes, it does.

Just sayin

[jacee]

Ah CC, the family I'm sure couldn't care less about what happens in general. All they care about is that Smoke left their loved one with permanent brain damage and received a rather light sentence, apparently because of his race!

No one tries to 'justify' the damage to Sam Gualtieri, his life and his family. It was a horrible assault with devastating consequences for them.

The Six Nations Confederacy Chiefs were horrified as well, expressing their shock and apologizing to the Gualtieris in person soon after the incident.

The judge was very clear and very blunt about that too, throughout the trial and sentencing.

One of the primary issues in the sentencing guidelines that the judge is required to follow, is consideration of the effects of Canada's abusive 'Indian' Residential Schools on parenting abilities, entirely relevant in this case. Abused former residential school students 'learned' to abuse children, had to suppress empathy and human compassion, and never saw or learned appropriate parenting skills, only negative ones. Six generations of Aboriginal parents, grandparents, etc., including Smoke's, were affected in this devastating way while 'in care' of the school system that Canada created and administered. Such factors - abuse and poor parenting - are often considered in sentencing any offender, as some of their behaviours are a result of their environment. Such consideration is mandatory in the case of Aboriginal people, because of Canada's acknowledged responsibility for the devasation of their families.

I know that if someone hurt me or one of my loved ones I could not be so charitable as to forgive him because someone 50 or 100 years ago treated someone of the same race as him poorly. I don't see people as races or tribes. I see them as individuals. As they treat me and mine so shall I respond. I would take my revenge against the specific individual(s) who had wronged me.

The urge to seek revenge is a natural one, but doing so would most often only cause further devastation to victims and their families: The law does not ignore crimes just because they were 'revenge' motivated, though mitigating factors such as the original offence might be considered in sentencing too.

Edited December 29, 2011 by jacee

[cybercoma]

No one tries to 'justify' the damage to Sam Gualtieri, his life and his family. It was a horrible assault with devastating consequences for them.

The Six Nations Confederacy Chiefs were horrified as well, expressing their shock and apologizing to the Gualtieris in person soon after the incident.

The judge was very clear and very blunt about that too, throughout the trial and sentencing.

One of the primary issues in the sentencing guidelines that the judge is required to follow, is consideration of the effects of Canada's abusive 'Indian' Residential Schools on parenting abilities, entirely relevant in this case. Abused former residential school students 'learned' to abuse children, had to suppress empathy and human compassion, and never saw or learned appropriate parenting skills, only negative ones. Six generations of Aboriginal parents, grandparents, etc., including Smoke's, were affected in this devastating way while 'in care' of the school system that Canada created and administered. Such factors - abuse and poor parenting - are often considered in sentencing any offender, as some of their behaviours are a result of their environment. Such consideration is mandatory in the case of Aboriginal people, because of Canada's acknowledged responsibility for the devasation of their families.

The urge to seek revenge is a natural one, but doing so would most often only cause further devastation to victims and their families: The law does not ignore crimes just because they were 'revenge' motivated, though mitigating factors such as the original offence might be considered in sentencing too.

This.

[guyser]

Some are more equal than others , except when they arent.

Like in this case.

[Guest Peeves]

Does not our law also consider factors of personal history of a perpetrator, family abuse, poverty, previous criminal record? Yes, it does.

Just sayin

Of course "factors" might be considered by a judge, but our laws mandate that natives must be given an extra special review.

http://www.themarkne...mark-for-canada

"In 1996, in an attempt to reduce the use of imprisonment, Parliament amended the Criminal Code to instruct judges that, in handing down sentences, “All available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances should be considered for all offenders, with particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders.”

That's like giving Black Canadians more laxity or excuse because they once were slaves. That is true and all well and good, but the examples I gave do not mete out justice in my opinion. Yours may be different. how long is a race card going to be accepted?

Special consideration??

It ignores the ferociousness and treatment of some native tribes by other tribes. History is one thing and 'our' law should make every attempt to be consistent should it not.

[Guest Peeves]

Some are more equal than others , except when they arent.

Like in this case.

I wonder how many that responded actually took the time required,approx. two minutes, to read the source at the link.

This is about justice for a serious crime, a near murder, with a sentence less than would put the convicted criminal..in a federal Pen.

That isn’t new — since a 1999 Supreme Court ruling, judges have been required to consider the unique circumstances of aboriginal offenders, who make up a disproportionately large percentage of Canada’s prison population. But this ruling — known as the Gladue decision after Jamie Tanis Gladue, a young aboriginal woman convicted of killing her boyfriend — is not, in the words of Judge Whitten himself, a “get-out-of-jail-free card.”

And yet, when one considers the paltry sentence meted out to Smoke, whose victim will continue to suffer from his injuries for the rest of his life, it seems to be almost exactly that. Judges can consider the unique circumstances of natives, but should remember that the rest of Canadian society must feel as though their court system takes lawlessness seriously, no matter the skin colour of the perpetrator. Locking Smoke up for less than two years sends precisely the opposite message.

[charter.rights]

Does not our law also consider factors of personal history of a perpetrator, family abuse, poverty, previous criminal record? Yes, it does.

Just sayin

Ya. Its called a "pre-sentence" report.

[jacee]

Of course "factors" might be considered by a judge, but our laws mandate that natives must be given an extra special review.

Yes, because "our laws", in attempting to destroy their claims to the land, devastated their cultures, communities, leadership, families and in particular several generations of children. This is very recent history so the effects are still very apparent in the children and grandchildren of residential school victims.

History is one thing and 'our' law should make every attempt to be consistent should it not.

Judicial application of the law strives for justice - ie fairness and consistency.

[Wild Bill]

Excerpts from attached link.

"The judge said he believes Pauchay, 25, doesn't understand his role in the deaths.

"It was my impression from observing him at the sentencing circle that Mr. Pauchay lacks insight into the reasons for his offending behaviour," Morgan said.

"I also note that Mr. Pauchay appears unable or unwilling to accept personal responsibilities for some of the problems he faces."

I don't understand why this is accepted as a mitigating factor. Is this not the very definition of a sociopath? Perhaps Richard Smoke would fit the same definition.

If a non-native were to be convicted as a sociopath he would be placed in medical custody, at the very least. Certainly, the diagnosis would not be used as an excuse to lighten his sentence.

[prairiechickin]

What bothers me about the Pauchay case is the judge is essentially saying that because of Residential Schools, Indians are too stupid to know better than to get pissed out of your head, then drag your kids out into a blizzard at -30C dressed only in a diaper and a t-shirt. I've got lots of Native friends, most of their parents went to residential schools, and they aren't that stupid. In fact they are as outraged as me at this clown's behavior and find it insulting that his race is used as mitigating factor. Real justice would be staking this asshole out on the prairie in nothing but a wet diaper and a t-shirt overnight when the next nasty blizzard hits.

[Guest Peeves]

What bothers me about the Pauchay case is the judge is essentially saying that because of Residential Schools, Indians are too stupid to know better than to get pissed out of your head, then drag your kids out into a blizzard at -30C dressed only in a diaper and a t-shirt. I've got lots of Native friends, most of their parents went to residential schools, and they aren't that stupid. In fact they are as outraged as me at this clown's behavior and find it insulting that his race is used as mitigating factor. Real justice would be staking this asshole out on the prairie in nothing but a wet diaper and a t-shirt overnight when the next nasty blizzard hits.

"In fact they are as outraged as me at this clown's behavior and find it insulting that his race is used as mitigating factor." I've encountered the same position. Seems that responsibility is out the window all too often today.

[DogOnPorch]

"In fact they are as outraged as me at this clown's behavior and find it insulting that his race is used as mitigating factor." I've encountered the same position. Seems that responsibility is out the window all too often today.

Well they broke out the Guatemalan Insanity Peppers when they thought this one up.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/30/vancouver-health-authority-begins-its-free-crack-pipe-program-for-addicts/

I'm 'addicted' to really good wines. Perhaps the government could see their way to providing a Château Margaux '57 on a regular basis...I'm hurtin'...hurtin' bad.

Edited December 31, 2011 by DogOnPorch