Any Bleeding Hearts Against This?

[jbg]

And then immediately after saying something sensible in your previous post you turn around and relate an isolated case to us in order to make the opposite point. This is the trouble with the US attitude. Those people will search for examples such as this in order to influence the small minds of christians and the christians will just eagerly eat it all up.

Of course rehabilitation doesn't work all the time and it's inane to suggest it does. That shouldn't even need to be said but apparently it does need to be said around here!

I'm quite honestly torn on this issue. Very torn.

[monty16]

I'm quite honestly torn on this issue. Very torn.

Tell us why if you want to pursue it further. In my opinion, and that's of course putting aside supernatural religious sky fairy beliefs, there's no reason to be torn. The rest of the civilized first world excepting your country are taking the right approach.

[Boges]

Tell us why if you want to pursue it further. In my opinion, and that's of course putting aside supernatural religious sky fairy beliefs, there's no reason to be torn. The rest of the civilized first world excepting your country are taking the right approach.

This had turned into just another Christian hater thread I see.

Lumping all Christians in the same category as the politically motivated Moral Majority Conservatives in the US is equally as ignorant as saying that all violent offenders are beyond rehabilitation.

Christian doctrine calls for forgiveness and pacifism if you haven't noticed.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Boges

[monty16]

This had turned into just another Christian hater thread I see.

Lumping all Christians in the same category as the politically motivated Moral Majority Conservatives in the US is equally as ignorant as saying that all violent offenders are beyond rehabilitation.

Christian doctrine calls for forgiveness and pacifism if you haven't noticed.

It's not christian hating anymore than it's witchcraft hating or Muslim hating. It's bringing to the attention of decent people that christianity is poisoning our societies. And your attempt at separating the conservative right from christianity fails. Or was it more of a cleverly disguised ad hom attack on me? Were you referring to me as a 'christian hater'? a 'hater'?

I consider myself a rational and truthful person who is pretty good at ferreting out the hate. The right will never be able to run away from it's christian. It practically owns it!

Edited December 24, 2011 by monty1

[Wild Bill]

It's not christian hating anymore than it's witchcraft hating or Muslim hating. It's bringing to the attention of decent people that christianity is poisoning our societies. And your attempt at separating the conservative right from christianity fails. Or was it more of a cleverly disguised ad hom attack on me? Were you referring to me as a 'christian hater'? a 'hater'?

I consider myself a rational and truthful person who is pretty good at ferreting out the hate. The right will never be able to run away from it's christian. It practically owns it!

Really? I have a lot of rightwing friends who are atheists, or at most, devout agnostics!

I'll have to show them your posts. The poor buggers have been blind all these years, not knowing they were Christians!

They are very lucky you came along!

[Boges]

It's not christian hating anymore than it's witchcraft hating or Muslim hating. It's bringing to the attention of decent people that christianity is poisoning our societies. And your attempt at separating the conservative right from christianity fails. Or was it more of a cleverly disguised ad hom attack on me? Were you referring to me as a 'christian hater'? a 'hater'?

I consider myself a rational and truthful person who is pretty good at ferreting out the hate. The right will never be able to run away from it's christian. It practically owns it!

Saying Christianity is poising society sounds rather hateful if you ask me.

[monty16]

Really? I have a lot of rightwing friends who are atheists, or at most, devout agnostics!

I'll have to show them your posts. The poor buggers have been blind all these years, not knowing they were Christians!

They are very lucky you came along!

Now that's just plain silly to think that I would accuse 'all' righties of being kristyuns. Read what I said please and then try again to separate the political right from christianity. And then you could maybe try to tell me that the political left is more christian if you think that would work?

Uhuh! Fact is the right is further gone than the left but the whole US is way too far gone. And that's why the whole issue that relates to the topic of this thread exists. christians care a lot about fetuses but very little for women and living people in general. Hence, overflowing jails and criminals running rampant on the streets, all armed to the teeth.

[NWRS]

Now that's just plain silly to think that I would accuse 'all' righties of being kristyuns. Read what I said please and then try again to separate the political right from christianity. And then you could maybe try to tell me that the political left is more christian if you think that would work?

Uhuh! Fact is the right is further gone than the left but the whole US is way too far gone. And that's why the whole issue that relates to the topic of this thread exists. christians care a lot about fetuses but very little for women and living people in general. Hence, overflowing jails and criminals running rampant on the streets, all armed to the teeth.

You clearly have your mind made up.

In 2011 the FBI stated that the violent crime rate in the U.S. was at it's lowest in 48 years, in fact the rate for most crimes was falling. So while you have the left wing rhetoric down pat the numbers are saying something a little different, yes of course their rates of crime are still higher than ours, but while some people might consider other factors you seem to think the punishment vs rehab differences as the reason. While then disregarding (or not doing your research) that while higher, their crime rate is falling faster than ours and they have been using a much more punitive model of crime and punishment than we have for quite some time now.

Carry on.

[Boges]

You clearly have your mind made up.

In 2011 the FBI stated that the violent crime rate in the U.S. was at it's lowest in 48 years, in fact the rate for most crimes was falling. So while you have the left wing rhetoric down pat the numbers are saying something a little different, yes of course their rates of crime are still higher than ours, but while some people might consider other factors you seem to think the punishment vs rehab differences as the reason. While then disregarding (or not doing your research) that while higher, their crime rate is falling faster than ours and they have been using a much more punitive model of crime and punishment than we have for quite some time now.

Carry on.

I'm sure he could attribute that to Christianity having less influence in American Society than it did decades ago. Of course he would provide no evidence for that and it would totally contradict what he had posted earlier.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Boges

[Guest Manny]

Now that's just plain silly to think that I would accuse 'all' righties of being kristyuns. Read what I said please and then try again to separate the political right from christianity. And then you could maybe try to tell me that the political left is more christian if you think that would work?

Uhuh! Fact is the right is further gone than the left but the whole US is way too far gone. And that's why the whole issue that relates to the topic of this thread exists. christians care a lot about fetuses but very little for women and living people in general. Hence, overflowing jails and criminals running rampant on the streets, all armed to the teeth.

I appreciate your sharply focused criticism towards those who use religious ideology to control others. Those christians or muslims or whoever, dehumanize people for the sake of belief in their god. In a bizarre way, they have no mercy. But we differ here because I also know, some who are christians or muslims or whatever do not believe this, and would not harm other people. I think you would agree but I don't know for sure. You have to be very careful and clear when you criticize groups of people, lest you fall into the same trap as those whom you condemn.

To me freedom is what matters, and tolerance. And that means, not pursuing your ideology to attack the other, whether it is done by liberalism eroding religious morals, or fundamentalism punishing and condemning atheists.

Perhaps today the problem is, too much communication. In a strange way, although it seems good and should help us reach out to one another, its also used to spread propaganda and attack with ideas. The offense comes when people talk too much, and attack others beliefs with their own ideas. People should be more quiet. In this sense media is counter-productive to a solution.

[Wild Bill]

Now that's just plain silly to think that I would accuse 'all' righties of being kristyuns. Read what I said please and then try again to separate the political right from christianity. And then you could maybe try to tell me that the political left is more christian if you think that would work?

Well, I DID read what you said! I read it again! Particularly these words: "And your attempt at separating the conservative right from christianity fails"

What am I expected to think? You are the one implying that you CAN'T separate "the conservative right from christianity"!

[monty16]

NWRS says:

So while you have the left wing rhetoric down pat the numbers are saying something a little different, yes of course their rates of crime are still higher than ours, but while some people might consider other factors you seem to think the punishment vs rehab differences as the reason.

Yeah that. tell me again in a year's time.

[monty16]

Well, I DID read what you said! I read it again! Particularly these words: "And your attempt at separating the conservative right from christianity fails"

What am I expected to think? You are the one implying that you CAN'T separate "the conservative right from christianity"!

Mostly I'm implying that the Christians are more likely to be righties than lefties. The right practically owns the sky fairy thing. The two are analagous in so many ways but then strangely not alike in that christianity preaches love they neighbour, looking after the poor, blah, blah, and then turn around and do the opposite while the left does the job. And the left does it not because of what the bible tells the left to do. Go figure!

Edited December 26, 2011 by monty1

[Boges]

Mostly I'm implying that the Christians are more likely to be righties than lefties. The right practically owns the sky fairy thing. The two are analagous in so many ways but then strangely not alike in that christianity preaches love they neighbour, looking after the poor, blah, blah, and then turn around and do the opposite while the left does the job. And the left does it not because of what the bible tells the left to do. Go figure!

Really? So the Salvation Army, World Vision, Mennonite Central Committee, The Red Cross, the Red Crescent etc etc etc. are all Left Wing Organizations and not religious ones?

The left wants the government to do the job, it doesn't do the job itself.

Also Left Wing Heroes like Tommy Douglas must have been Right-wing since he believed in God.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Boges

[Wild Bill]

Mostly I'm implying that the Christians are more likely to be righties than lefties. The right practically owns the sky fairy thing. The two are analagous in so many ways but then strangely not alike in that christianity preaches love they neighbour, looking after the poor, blah, blah, and then turn around and do the opposite while the left does the job. And the left does it not because of what the bible tells the left to do. Go figure!

Monty, I could accuse many on the left of exactly the same sort of thinking! They don't attribute anything to the influence of some Flying Spaghetti Monster or Sky Fairy but often they act EXACTLY the way you describe!

Hell, with all the hype and hoopla over Jack Layton's death and funeral one might have thought they had better get him buried as soon as possible, since in 3 days he was going to rise again!

Again, I fail to see how the religion factor is relevant. People believe in and do all sorts of cockamamie things, for cockamamie reasons. Religion is just another one on the list.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Boges]

Does a website like this make your head explode Monty?

http://www.thechristianleft.org/

Edited December 26, 2011 by Boges

[jbg]

Uhuh! Fact is the right is further gone than the left but the whole US is way too far gone. And that's why the whole issue that relates to the topic of this thread exists. christians care a lot about fetuses but very little for women and living people in general. Hence, overflowing jails and criminals running rampant on the streets, all armed to the teeth.

I am certainly not a Michelle Bachman supporter.

But give credit where it's due. She did adopt or otherwise provide care for some far from perfect babies. Not all Christian rightists confine their activities to whining, complaining and carping.

[jbg]

Also Left Wing Heroes like Tommy Douglas must have been Right-wing since he believed in God.

Even though he was a eugenicist, and thus guilty of "genocide" in the Charter.Rights (link) sense.

[cybercoma]

Even though he was a eugenicist, and thus guilty of "genocide" in the Charter.Rights (link) sense.

Once again, unlike Alberta and BC, Tommy Douglas never promoted or passed eugenics laws. It was popular thought when he completed his Masters degree, which is why he wrote his thesis on it. The legal definition of genocide was created after eugenics lost it's popularity due to where it led during WWII.

Was Tommy Douglas a Eugenicist? Not necessarily. Just because he wrote is MA paper on it doesn't mean he was a eugenicist himself. Nevertheless, almost everyone was a Eugenicist in those days.

Did Tommy Douglas promote genoicde? Eugenics is one of the criteria for genocide, so in a sense he did. However, at the time the UN legal definition of genocide did not exist. Another important point about genoicide is that it has to be targeted at a specific group. Unlike you, saying that poor Natives shouldn't breed, Tommy Douglas never promoted a specifically racist view of Eugenics. He believed in Eugenics more broadly as a solution to social ills.

[monty16]

I don't quite understand why some righties are trying to say that some lefties are Christians? Of course some are and that was something that was never up to be questioned. What is also true is that far more righties are Christians and especially hardline Christians then are lefties. Hence I say that the right nearly owns religion. In most circumstances they would be trying to tell us just that! This is about as silly as righties trying to redefine what liberals or liberalism is. If liberalism connotes something good then the right will try to say that the left aren't true liberals.