Gender Equality in Canada and the US

MiddleClassCentrist · February 1, 2012

Of course we will. The exact same sociocultural factors are at play. The reality is clear, a majority of people getting college degrees, which prime them for solid professional jobs with good salaries, are women. People complaining about some kind of male domination of the economy are living in the past. If you're in your 20s right now (as I am) and look around, you'd have to be crazy to hold that view. The current generation of women beginning their careers is every bit as successful and ambitious as men.

Of course this reality hasn't yet percolated to the levels of top leaders and executives (as cybercoma points out). Executives tend to be older, with many decades of experience. Most of them were going to school 20-40+ years ago. Things were very different in the 60s, 70s, and 80s than they are today.

By the 2030s-2050s, there will be vastly more women in top positions of power, quite possibly even outnumbering men, not because of any social changes, equality programs, or reforms, but simply because the women that grew up in the 1990s and 2000s will have made their way to the peaks of their careers.

Yes You'll actually find it reverse. Young males are being short changed by society. The school system is feminized which makes girls more successful in it. The Media more often portrays the guy as the goof, idiot, or clown while the female is smart and rational, especially in commercials.

Young males are being sent much worse messages than "Be beautiful". You are always the villain, it's always your fault, you are an idiot. While girls are encouraged to be everything they can be, males are being ruined to settle for mediocrity.

When you take the time to look at the next generation, our young males have being destroyed all in the cause of feminism.

MiddleClassCentrist · February 1, 2012

Yeah, I read it. It ignores the factors that all of the previous articles made about why women are scarce in positions of power and the socionormative pressure for them to forego career aspirations to care for children or elderly parents. You think with the aging population it will be men looking after grandma, grandpa, and the kids? Oh sure, some of them will, probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 6%, as it stands today.

*warning sirens*

Manhating bias detected.

Insinuating that the invaluable opportunity of staying home with one's child is a burden noted.

Edited February 1, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

Bonam · February 1, 2012

Complete nonsense. It's much better, and in many cases necessary for the mother to be with a new-born for the first little while.

Little realities like males being unable to breast feed must not be allowed to interfere with cybercoma's feminist vision.

Bonam · February 1, 2012

Yet it's almost always the mother that stays home for the entire year and many times even longer than the time for which she is paid.

Which parent, if any, stays at home and for how much time is a decision that should be left individually to each family. It is no place of the state to dictate this, or to criticize people's choices. Mothers are in important ways biologically better equipped to provide the necessary care to their infants than fathers are.

Bonam · February 1, 2012

Sounds fine to me.

Yep, nothing wrong with that.

Bonam · February 1, 2012

Yes You'll actually find it reverse. Young males are being short changed by society. The school system is feminized which makes girls more successful in it. The Media more often portrays the guy as the goof, idiot, or clown while the female is smart and rational, especially in commercials.

Young males are being sent much worse messages than "Be beautiful". You are always the villain, it's always your fault, you are an idiot. While girls are encouraged to be everything they can be, males are being ruined to settle for mediocrity.

This is in many ways true. It is often the trend in our society to overcompensate for past injustices and thereby create new ones. Racist affirmative action programs are another example. That being said, I think the role of media on influencing people into defining their life roles and ambitions is overstated. A man who sees a commercial where the male is an idiot and thus acts like an idiot himself is weakminded and would fall prey to all kinds of other adverse influences anyway. The same can be said of a woman who sees an ultra thin model on TV and decides she has to starve herself.

cybercoma · February 1, 2012

*warning sirens*

Manhating bias detected.

Insinuating that the invaluable opportunity of staying home with one's child is a burden noted.

I never said it's a burden. It's unpaid labour though. That's for sure. You're not contributing to your CPP plan when you're raising kids.

cybercoma · February 1, 2012

Little realities like males being unable to breast feed must not be allowed to interfere with cybercoma's feminist vision.

I suppose you've never heard of a breast pump or formula.

cybercoma · February 1, 2012

Which parent, if any, stays at home and for how much time is a decision that should be left individually to each family. It is no place of the state to dictate this, or to criticize people's choices. Mothers are in important ways biologically better equipped to provide the necessary care to their infants than fathers are.

Who said it should be the state's right to dictate this? Where do you get this garbage?

Mother's are biologically better equipped to care for infants? Does that include post-partum depression?

You're just pulling things together to support your notion of the way things ought to be (the woman staying home raising the kids). This is the socionormative pressure I'm talking about. People carry these ridiculous misconceptions that a woman ought to stay home because she's "biologically" more suitable for raising the children. When that's not at all the case. She's socialised into believe she's more capable and better at raising the children. There's no reason a father couldn't stay home with the kids.

Bonam · February 1, 2012

I suppose you've never heard of a breast pump or formula.

Both of which are less healthy than breast feeding.

You're just pulling things together to support your notion of the way things ought to be (the woman staying home raising the kids).

I actually really have no such notion. Like I said before, it is each family's individual decision which (if any) parent should stay home with the child/children. Sometimes, it may be possible for one of the parents to work from home, or to work part time, while staying in their chosen career. In many cultures, it is often a grandparent who spends most of the time taking care of the children, since they are no longer working, which frees up the parent's time.

She's socialised into believe she's more capable and better at raising the children.

I'd like to see you complain about this issue when the topic is child custody battles rather than which parent stays at home. Anyway, you'd have to work real hard to make me agree with the idea of an entire gender of people being "socialized" to feel like they have to do something. People make individual decisions, they are not forced into them. But if you do want to talk about people being "socialized", what about the man feeling like he has to earn the money and support the family?

I never said it's a burden. It's unpaid labour though. That's for sure. You're not contributing to your CPP plan when you're raising kids.

The most important wealth and capital one can have in their old age is living relatives that you have a good relationship with. Furthermore, it's not a matter of being "unpaid", it's a matter of division of labor. Tasks must be performed in a family, including earning money and raising children. Both are necessary and important. The person raising the children is contributing just as much to the successful operation of the family as the person earning the money, and deserves just as much respect for the role that they play.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Bonam

cybercoma · February 1, 2012

Both of which are less healthy than breast feeding.

Myth. In fact, there are studies that show formula may indeed be healthier.

People make individual decisions, they are not forced into them.

Of course they do. Nobody said otherwise. How a person perceives their options, interprets their environment and ultimately comes to that decision, however, is a product of a variety of things, particularly socialisation.

But if you do want to talk about people being "socialized", what about the man feeling like he has to earn the money and support the family?

You're right. What about it? It's all part of the same problem. More men should stay home with the children and take up "domestic" responsibilities.

The most important wealth and capital one can have in their old age is living relatives that you have a good relationship with. Furthermore, it's not a matter of being "unpaid", it's a matter of division of labor. Tasks must be performed in a family, including earning money and raising children. Both are necessary and important. The person raising the children is contributing just as much to the successful operation of the family as the person earning the money, and deserves just as much respect for the role that they play.

Of course they do. I'm not sure why you would think I'm suggesting otherwise. However, that role more often than not falls to women. Even caring for elderly parents tends to fall to women. This often makes them financially dependant on their partners. What I'm suggesting is that more men should take on these roles. The ones that do are also discriminated against by both men and women. They're often treated as though they are less of a man because they rely on their wife to make a living while they care for the children. Some people will actually become very aggressive and offensive towards these men. When people do "non-traditional" things, they are often attacked for it or made to feel guilty or like less of a person because of it.

February 1, 2012

Myth. In fact, there are studies that show formula may indeed be healthier.

No, it's not a myth; and women aren't choosing to stay home with their babies because they are "socialised" to feel that they must - they choose to do so because they want to. I swear you think women have no mind of their own - everything they think, feel, and do is "dictated" by society or men or whatever. Again. Newsflash. Women can, and do, think for themselves.

Bonam · February 1, 2012

You're right. What about it? It's all part of the same problem. More men should stay home with the children and take up "domestic" responsibilities.

Why is it a matter of "should" in your mind? Who are you to dictate what people "should" do? To me, it is good enough that both men and women are entirely free in our society to make these choices, on an individual basis. As AW says, women are entirely capable of thinking for themselves. I have absolutely no qualms with these freedoms. You, on the other hand, seem convinced that you know better, and that society must be molded to fit your vision. That is what I most disagree with.

When people do "non-traditional" things, they are often attacked for it or made to feel guilty or like less of a person because of it.

Irrational and offensive people will insult and criticize others for all kinds of reasons. Big freaking deal. It's just part of life. Whatever choices you make in life, chances are someone is going to be critical of them, and that goes for both men and women. Most of us don't "feel like less of a person" because some people disagree with our life choices.

cybercoma · February 1, 2012

they choose to do so because they want to

Thanks. This is very insightful. They choose to do so because they choose to do so. I'll remember that. Very useful.

cybercoma · February 1, 2012

men and women are entirely free in our society to make these choices

If that's what you believe then you have given absolutely no thought into what goes into making choices.

cybercoma · February 1, 2012

And again, the breast-feeding argument for requiring mothers to stay home is weak. In fact the last article below from The Atlantic holds that the breast-feeding lobby actually does more harm to women by keeping them out of the workplace. A mother can pump milk and formula is not any less healthy, so there's no reason fathers can't stay home with the children. Here are a few articles on breast-feeding vs formula.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1241051/Breast-milk-NOT-better-baby-formula-scientists-claim.html

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/721515

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/04/the-case-against-breast-feeding/7311/

From the last link:

In the past decade, researchers have come up with ever more elaborate ways to tease out the truth. One 2005 paper focused on 523 sibling pairs who were fed differently, and its results put a big question mark over all the previous research. The economists Eirik Evenhouse and Siobhan Reilly compared rates of diabetes, asthma, and allergies; childhood weight; various measures of mother-child bonding; and levels of intelligence. Almost all the differences turned out to be statistically insignificant. For the most part, the “long-term effects of breast feeding have been overstated,” they wrote.

Edited February 1, 2012 by cybercoma

cybercoma · February 1, 2012

I'm not sure if those articles mention it, perhaps The Atlantic one does because it touches on social stigma and the history of breast vs formula, but formula used to be considered the thing that upper middle-class people would do. Breast-feeding was only done by the poor who couldn't afford the scientifically balanced milk that formula provided. We know now that formula is not better than breast-milk, but it's hardly any worse either. It's interesting, however, how that social stigma has shifted in the other direction. That those with the time, money, and other resources should stay home and breast-feed, while formula is viewed as cheap and something only the poor do. This allows those without the resources to continue working at least. There has been a complete reversal of the social perceptions of the ways a child is fed.

Edited February 1, 2012 by cybercoma

February 1, 2012

American Woman, on 01 February 2012 - 05:05 AM, said: they choose to do so because they want to
Thanks. This is very insightful. They choose to do so because they choose to do so. I'll remember that. Very useful.

Noooooo. They choose to do so because the WANT to. Try comprehending what's actually said. Remember to do that. That would be very useful.

February 1, 2012

Noooooo. They choose to do so because the WANT to. Try comprehending what's actually said. Remember to do that. That would be very useful.

Yeah but, they probably only want to because they've been brainwashed by society into wanting to. Who would actually WANT to do something like that? I mean, hard for an average guy to fathom.

MiddleClassCentrist · February 2, 2012

I never said it's a burden. It's unpaid labour though. That's for sure. You're not contributing to your CPP plan when you're raising kids.

You are receiving EI while on maternity. You are receiving a child benefit amount if you aren't rich.

I didn't get paid for finishing the basement. I didn't get paid for doing the landscaping. I didn't get paid for installing the new dryer. I didn't get paid to clean up the dog crap. I didn't get paid to take out the trash. I didn't get paid to paint the boys bedrooms. I didn't get paid to mow the lawn. I didn't get paid to install the telephone line downstairs to move the computer desk downstairs and give the kids more room to play. I didn't get paid for cleaning and seasoning that cast iron bbq grill she wanted. I don't get paid for the time I spend taking the cars to get maintenance. I don't get paid for ensuring our cars have proper tire pressure (especially annoying to do with blowing winter wind). I didn't get paid when I took my son to the walk-in clinic after work because he had a high fever when I got home.

I'm not saying that my life is difficult. I just don't expect to get paid for things I do for my family.

My wife and I don't have issues that other people have with money. Family money, is family money. It goes into one account. We consult each other when making large purchases using it.

BC_chick · February 2, 2012

No, it's not a myth; and women aren't choosing to stay home with their babies because they are "socialised" to feel that they must - they choose to do so because they want to. I swear you think women have no mind of their own - everything they think, feel, and do is "dictated" by society or men or whatever. Again. Newsflash. Women can, and do, think for themselves.

I don't think what you say disputes cybercoma's argument, the two are not mutually exclusive. Women could very well be choosing to stay home to raise kids *because* that's what we've been socialised to do.

The point that CC is making is that once (more like if) the day comes that society accepts fathers staying home with complete indifference then fathers may *choose* to stay home just as much. Right now there is still a stigma attached to it, that's the point. Hence, the woman's choice to stay home.

As for the argument that women are more biologically equipped - yes, historically speaking, this is true. But the day has come where this is no longer the case. I completely agree with CC on both counts.

Men should feel just as comfortable as women to stay home while their wives work. This may be true for some couples, but we've got a very long way to go before the stigma is completely gone and couples can make their choices based on personal lifestyles as opposed to social taboos and pride.

ETA - studies show time and time again that women do a lot more of the child-rearing even when both partners work full-time. Why? Who knows. But I can speak from experience on this as well.

Edited February 2, 2012 by BC_chick

MiddleClassCentrist · February 3, 2012

I think we should crack down on paternity fraud.

Between 5-15% of kids are born to the wrong father. Who is expected to raise and pay for them, even after divorce.

Mandatory DNA testing for any father to be listed on the birth certificate.

That's some equality for you. That way, both parents will know that the child is of their blood.

Completely fair, no ability for women to continue to abuse men with paternity fraud, forcing them to raise and pay for a child that isn't theirs. Even after divorce.

cybercoma · February 3, 2012

I don't think what you say disputes cybercoma's argument, the two are not mutually exclusive. Women could very well be choosing to stay home to raise kids *because* that's what we've been socialised to do.

The point that CC is making is that once (more like if) the day comes that society accepts fathers staying home with complete indifference then fathers may *choose* to stay home just as much. Right now there is still a stigma attached to it, that's the point. Hence, the woman's choice to stay home.

As for the argument that women are more biologically equipped - yes, historically speaking, this is true. But the day has come where this is no longer the case. I completely agree with CC on both counts.

Men should feel just as comfortable as women to stay home while their wives work. This may be true for some couples, but we've got a very long way to go before the stigma is completely gone and couples can make their choices based on personal lifestyles as opposed to social taboos and pride.

ETA - studies show time and time again that women do a lot more of the child-rearing even when both partners work full-time. Why? Who knows. But I can speak from experience on this as well.

Well, at least I know now that someone understands clearly what I've been arguing.

February 4, 2012

I think we should crack down on paternity fraud.

Between 5-15% of kids are born to the wrong father. Who is expected to raise and pay for them, even after divorce.

I have a few questions. If a man's wife had a baby and he thought that child was his and obviously was raising it as his, and perhaps ten years down the road he found out that he wasn't the father of that child, do you think he would be able to just walk away from him/her - even in a divorce? Would he love him/her less? Would he no longer care what happened to the child? Could a caring, loving man do that to a child who loved him and sees him as his/her Dad? Do you think the the DNA of the child the reason men love him/her and want to be part of his/her life?

I'm seriously wondering - though I see no problem with DNA testing. Who's to pay for it every time a child is born, though? And why would a husband want proof that the baby his wife is giving birth to is his? Seems to me if that kind of doubt exists, it doesn't say much for the marriage.

Edited to add: Do you have a site backing up your "5-15%" statistics? And if so, does it say how often the child is born "to the wrong father" with married couples?

Edited February 4, 2012 by American Woman

MiddleClassCentrist · February 5, 2012

I have a few questions. If a man's wife had a baby and he thought that child was his and obviously was raising it as his, and perhaps ten years down the road he found out that he wasn't the father of that child, do you think he would be able to just walk away from him/her - even in a divorce? Would he love him/her less? Would he no longer care what happened to the child? Could a caring, loving man do that to a child who loved him and sees him as his/her Dad? Do you think the the DNA of the child the reason men love him/her and want to be part of his/her life?

I'm seriously wondering - though I see no problem with DNA testing. Who's to pay for it every time a child is born, though? And why would a husband want proof that the baby his wife is giving birth to is his? Seems to me if that kind of doubt exists, it doesn't say much for the marriage.

Edited to add: Do you have a site backing up your "5-15%" statistics? And if so, does it say how often the child is born "to the wrong father" with married couples?

That is what the females rely on when committing paternity fraud. It's an abuse of power, more powerful than money. The woman could have made a mistake and is trying to cover it up. The woman might have realized that the douche is an ex con and won't make a good dad. The testing is becoming cheaper and cheaper. You can buy self test kits for a few hundred. Just lump it into the cost of the official birth certificate.

It should just happen as part of the registering a baby properly process. Then there is not opportunity for these evil women who commit paternity fraud to get away with it.

To the first half of your comments, many Dad's don't think about the after effects of finding out but say that they are glad they know. You have to remember that the poor man did not create the situation, he is the victim of an unscrupulous female using the status of her body and security of knowing that the child is hers to place burden of responsibility on a male that had no part in the creation of the child. IMO, It should be his decision if he will continue to have a relationship the child if he had been the father figure for more than 2 years.

Some links if you are interested looking for more info:

http://www.canadiancrc.com/Paternity_Fraud.aspx

http://www.paternityfraud.com/

Edited February 5, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist