Face veils banned for citizenship oaths

[Scotty]

This simply comes down to a group of people that don't like the veils or are frightened by them, which makes sense because it's not part of their culture,

It's not that I don't like the veil - although I don't - it's more that I don't like what it represents, the mindset of religious fanaticism and ignorance behind it. That's what makes my lip curl. And I would feel just as contemptuous of anyone from any other religion under the same circumstances. Those fanatical Jews in Israel, for example, the Haredim. They don't wear scarves. They wear other religious costumes. But really, what bugs me is that they're so backward and ignorant, and yet so self-righteous and smugly superior about their backwardness and ignorance.

[Scotty]

I haven't ignored them all. I've even said there are quite reasonable situations for removing the veil. In a room full of people for the citizenship oath isn't one of them, neither is walking into a bank or shopping at a store.

I think society has an interest in discouraging cultural backwardness and ignorance.

[guyser]

You have no way of knowing which and you have no way of identifying them after any sort of discourse you might have had with them.

I for one would never engage in a business transaction with anyone I couldn't physically identify after the fact. That would just be stupid.

The vast majority, bordering near 100% of my clients I never see , meet in person nor have any idea what they look like. And I am responsible for should they not pay up, and a lot else.

The first thing anyone is asked in a court room is whether they can identify the person they are giving evidence about. If you or the police can't, you or the Crown has no case.

Wilbur, not true.

One can be tried in absentia, or could be dead .

A trite point one may think , however the law does not require and has to be inclusive of all the minutiae of life. The law has to be written to be exact , not vague or unspecific but accurate .

[Scotty]

I love how your whole, entire claim that women are not judged on their looks rests on certain exceptions which are not necessarily representative.

Of course women are judged on their looks.

As are men. You don't think so? Have a look at really attractive men, and you'll see that women are all over them in much the same way men lust after attractive women. You don't think such men get 'objectified'? Please!

[guyser]

And how does that explain the young Canadian Muslims embracing Islamist thinking, and putting on these religious costumes even though they were born in Canada and their parents aren't demanding it?

All 20 or 30 out of the 500,000 of them? Well.....

Same way some young white punk wears his pants below his bum,his cockeyed ballcap still has the tag on it, and he answers "yo yo yo dis honky is bad!"

Its cool to them.

[Scotty]

Credit cards use chips now and for that matter I write Check ID on the back of my credit card (instead of signing it) for businesses that don't have the chip.

Do you know how many times I've had someone check my ID?

In the last 7 years since I've been doing that, I was asked 1 time for ID.

As for verifying identity, clerks don't ask for ID and are not required to unless the signatures don't match.

I picked up a package at the local Canada post outlet at the mall the other day. The clerk wanted to see photo ID. When I got a bank account they wanted to see photo ID. When I got my passport they wanted to see photo ID. I have to show my photo Id at work every morning when I go in the door.

I find it ludicrous that women in bedsheets can get on buses without showing their faces. You honestly don't think they take advantage of that by passing one bus pass back and forth among them?

And btw, the closest I've ever come to a bad accident was when driving down the street in the outside lane, at some speed, and a car full of these women in bedsheets pulled out from a gas station and kept right on going out into the outer lane right in front of me. I had to jam on the brakes and my squealing tires stopped about five feet from the side door of their car while these stupid masked women stared out at me.

[guyser]

I think society has an interest in discouraging cultural backwardness and ignorance.

True, but Alberta is and shall remain a part of Canada . But when you're rich as the Clampetts , Mr Drysdale knows enough to shut up and let them be .

<----- dont forget this!

[Scotty]

The judge could just say " well, I have bought 50 gifts this past month for friends and family and not once did they ask to see my face, nor would they for security ! "

"I bought them all online "

And yet, my bank insists that when I use their card on line I have to provide extra information, as in my mother''s maiden name, for example.

[Wilber]

The vast majority, bordering near 100% of my clients I never see , meet in person nor have any idea what they look like. And I am responsible for should they not pay up, and a lot else.

Don't know what you do but good luck.

Personally, I won't unless I am dealing with a company I know or can use PayPal.

Wilbur, not true.

One can be tried in absentia, or could be dead .

A trite point one may think , however the law does not require and has to be inclusive of all the minutiae of life. The law has to be written to be exact , not vague or unspecific but accurate .

How many people has this country tried dead or in absentia during the last century?

[cybercoma]

This has nothing to do with what women can or cannot wear, but has everything to do with requiring all people, men and women alike, to show their identities during certain circumstances. This has already been explained to you many times, in great detail, and of course you will continue to ignore legitimate reasons for requiring a person to identify him or herself. I mean, you've been doing it the entire thread, you and I both know you won't stop now.

This isn't about me. This is about showing a legitimate reason for requiring a woman that would be uncomfortable taking off her veil in a room full of men to do so. Many posters in this thread have given very plausible types of reasonable accommodation. On the other hand, you insist that they must identify themselves, as though that in any way contradicts the idea of reasonable accommodation. Unfortunately, that argument holds no water because no one has suggested that they don't need to identify themselves. What is being suggested is that they don't need to expose themselves in the way that your argument demands and there certainly doesn't need to be a law forcing them to do so.

[Scotty]

This is rather silly. After all you can do most of your banking through a machine or computer these days without any facial verification at all. If you have your number and your pin... you are authenticated. That doesnt mean that there isnt some cases where a facial id isnt necessary.

That's because the PIN verifies the card. There is no such verification for credit cards. Although, when used on line, my card has a program now called 'verified by Visa' which makes me answer extra questions, before accepting the card's purchase.

[cybercoma]

allowing people to completely hide their identity and indeed gender understandably can be perceived as presenting a greater risk to society.

How? It's not understandable at all. Tell me how they pose a greater risk to society.

[guyser]

I find it ludicrous that women in bedsheets can get on buses without showing their faces. You honestly don't think they take advantage of that by passing one bus pass back and forth among them?

You mean like the average high school kid does everyday? Not a concern worth worrying about, not to mention a lousy reason to get indignant.

And btw, the closest I've ever come to a bad accident was when driving down the street in the outside lane, at some speed, and a car full of these women in bedsheets pulled out from a gas station and kept right on going out into the outer lane right in front of me. I had to jam on the brakes and my squealing tires stopped about five feet from the side door of their car while these stupid masked women stared out at me.

The closest huh?

Actually you have no idea whatsoever that the 'bedsheets' were the cause, with the fatal exception of it being the unwarranted focus of your ignorance, of them pulling out in front of you.

It happens a hundred thousand times a day for various and sundry reasons.

Come on back and let us know about the.....

blind in left eye guy who pulls out to cross traffic

the kid in the oversize hoodie

grandma with the failing eyesight and no wherewithall to admit she sucks at driving.

[cybercoma]

The niqab and burka are both products of a misogynistic culture/value system.

No one's denying that. Of course it comes from a sexist an dmisogynistic value system; it doesn't allow women to choose for themselves. However, forcing women to wear the clothing that you feel is acceptable and culturally relevant is equally misogynistic.

I know, I know. It's about identifying themselves in certain circumstances. Yet, no one has denied that. We're arguing about what circumstances are appropriate and what circumstances are not. I've yet to see a reasonable argument for the oath that hasn't already been addressed by many different suggestions for reasonable accommodation.

Keep swinging at them strawmen, Don Quixote.

[Scotty]

No one's denying that.

Then why do you care if the government does something minor in an effort to discourage them?

[olp1fan]

Canadians from every political group have spoken

http://m.torontosun.com/2011/12/15/no-veil-rule-has-support-of-canadians

Canadians overwhelmingly support having Muslim women remove their veils to take the citizenship oath, a poll shows.

Forum Research released figures Thursday showing a whopping 81% of those polled support having women who wear the niqab, or veil, remove it when they swear allegiance during citizenship ceremonies.

Under sweeping regulations that take effect this week, federal Citizenship Minister Jason Kenney announced Muslim women will have to remove their niqabs or any other face-coverings such as burkas before reciting the oath of citizenship to become Canadian.

Support for the new regulations was strongest in Quebec (89%) and lower in British Columbia (74%), Ontario (77%), and the Prairies (79%).

And older residents were more likely to support Kenney in this.

(68% aged 18 to 34; 84% aged 35 to 44; 88% 45 to 54; 87% 55 to 64; 89% 65+).

When it comes to political party preference, not surprisingly, Tories were most likely to support the measure. All the same, people who said they were likely to vote for the other parties were overwhelmingly in favour of the measure.

People who identified themselves as NDP supporters were 73% in favour. That figure was 75% among those who counted themselves as Liberals.

Still, the high level of Quebec support for removing the veil puts all the Opposition parties in a tight spot if they oppose the government move, said Forum President, Lorne Bozinoff.

“We don’t get a lot of numbers in the 80% range in the polling business,” Bozinoff said.

“This is very unusual having people fairly unanimous on an issue like this.”

It was expected there’d be a stinging backlash to the new regulations. Instead, these figures show the government will shore up support where it needs it most – in Quebec, said Bozinoff.

The high approval rating for the new measure in that province will help the Tories, he said.

“Any of the Opposition parties - the Liberals, the Bloc and the NDP - all their supporters are in favour of this idea, so it’s going to put them all in a tight spot and make it hard for them to oppose this idea.”

The provincial NDP leader said she found the new regulation, “disconcerting.”

“I don’t believe that the wearing of a garment for religious or cultural purposes is something that I have the right to tell somebody they can or can’t do,” said Andrea Horwath Tuesday.

And Ontario’s Citizenship and Immigration Minister Charles Sousa said the decision falls under the federal government’s jurisdiction.

“That said, we always want to ensure changes don’t hinder our diversity, which we believe is one of Ontario’s biggest strengths,” Sousa said.

[cybercoma]

Interesting point of view from a Muslim:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/Muslims+need+leave+their+veils+behind/5870110/story.html

Bigotted? Racist? Anti-Muslim? None of the above. Just some common-sense.

Niqabs should be banned in Canada, where people are expected to dress ac-cording to a western code of conduct and attire. The same goes for honour killings, which have no place in a modern society.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/Muslims+need+leave+their+veils+behind/5870110/story.html#ixzz1gkLVIljZ

That's about all I can take. What a horrible paragraph. There is no Western code of conduct or Western dress code. Moreover, what does allowing a woman the right to choose what she feels comfortable wearing and doing in public have to do with honour killings?

What ridiculous and spurious claims. This author uses completely irrational appeals to emotion.

Should Muslim women leave the veils behind? Well I would certianly hope that they would feel comfortable enough to do so one day. Should we be forcing it upon them with legislation? Absolutely not. You would be absolutely humiliated if a government forced you to remove more clothing than you're used to removing in public. The same applies here. We ought not be legislating these women to feel humiliate. I would hope and encourage them to eventually emancipate themselves from the kind of misogynistic oppression that would have them hide themselves in public, but I would not do it by making them criminals if they're not yet comfortable doing so.

[guyser]

Don't know what you do but good luck.

Personally, I won't unless I am dealing with a company I know or can use PayPal.

You likely do it all the time. Not one of your bills paid online is face to face.

In my case, I am an insurance broker, and I bind coverage , issue legal documents for places and things I have never and will never see.

And if they don't pay their bill,I am on the hook for it.(some cases are an exception if it is a Direct Bill from the ins company)

How many people has this country tried dead or in absentia during the last century?

Very few at all. Our legal system demands that papers be served to either the accused,his reps, his estate or what have you.

In the case of corporations, (see SSEC Oil in Alberta) they will sometimes fold up and not leave anyone repping them behind thus the law will not allow papers to be served outside the country.

In the case of private individuals, it is generally not worth the bother.But the estate, should it be a civil suit would proceed because the estate is the rep.

[cybercoma]

Of course women are judged on their looks.

As are men. You don't think so? Have a look at really attractive men, and you'll see that women are all over them in much the same way men lust after attractive women. You don't think such men get 'objectified'? Please!

It goes beyond being "judged" for your looks. It has to do with a woman's value being tied directly to sexualized notions of her attractiveness. Women are taught firstorto be pretty and men are taught to first appreciate their prettiness. Take a look at the "dress-up" costumes they have in Indigo next time you go there. The girl costumes are all princesses, nurses, etc, while the boys costumes are professions like knights (to save the princesses), doctors (to be the nurses bosses), etc. We characterize men in roles where they are superior to women and where women's only hope is to be attractive enough to gain the affections of a man who can save her. When a man is judged for his looks, it's not the same as women whose most valuable asset in our society is her looks. It's really not the same thing at all. We're not talking about particular instances where a woman judges a man's looks... we're talking about a culturally engrained perspective, the way men and women are trained in perceiving their "place" in society.

[Keepitsimple]

I think this thread says a lot about this forum......55 pages of dicussion on a topic that Canadians overwhelmingly support - over 80%. Yet there are still ideological dissenters. Hey, that's democracy....and I love it! But beware the squeaky wheel.

[Scotty]

It goes beyond being "judged" for your looks. It has to do with a woman's value being tied directly to sexualized notions of her attractiveness. Women are taught firstorto be pretty and men are taught to first appreciate their prettiness. Take a look at the "dress-up" costumes they have in Indigo next time you go there. The girl costumes are all princesses, nurses, etc, while the boys costumes are professions like knights (to save the princesses), doctors (to be the nurses bosses), etc.

Seems to me that a princess outranks a knight.

As to doctors, the latest medical school classes have a majority of women students. For that matter, females outnumber men on Canadian university campuses generally...

[cybercoma]

Then why do you care if the government does something minor in an effort to discourage them?

Because apparently I'm more of a libertarian than you and I'm a socialist.

[cybercoma]

Canadians from every political group have spoken

http://m.torontosun.com/2011/12/15/no-veil-rule-has-support-of-canadians

Canadians overwhelmingly support having Muslim women remove their veils to take the citizenship oath, a poll shows.

Forum Research released figures Thursday showing a whopping 81% of those polled support having women who wear the niqab, or veil, remove it when they swear allegiance during citizenship ceremonies.

Under sweeping regulations that take effect this week, federal Citizenship Minister Jason Kenney announced Muslim women will have to remove their niqabs or any other face-coverings such as burkas before reciting the oath of citizenship to become Canadian.

Support for the new regulations was strongest in Quebec (89%) and lower in British Columbia (74%), Ontario (77%), and the Prairies (79%).

And older residents were more likely to support Kenney in this.

(68% aged 18 to 34; 84% aged 35 to 44; 88% 45 to 54; 87% 55 to 64; 89% 65+).

When it comes to political party preference, not surprisingly, Tories were most likely to support the measure. All the same, people who said they were likely to vote for the other parties were overwhelmingly in favour of the measure.

People who identified themselves as NDP supporters were 73% in favour. That figure was 75% among those who counted themselves as Liberals.

Still, the high level of Quebec support for removing the veil puts all the Opposition parties in a tight spot if they oppose the government move, said Forum President, Lorne Bozinoff.

“We don’t get a lot of numbers in the 80% range in the polling business,” Bozinoff said.

“This is very unusual having people fairly unanimous on an issue like this.”

It was expected there’d be a stinging backlash to the new regulations. Instead, these figures show the government will shore up support where it needs it most – in Quebec, said Bozinoff.

The high approval rating for the new measure in that province will help the Tories, he said.

“Any of the Opposition parties - the Liberals, the Bloc and the NDP - all their supporters are in favour of this idea, so it’s going to put them all in a tight spot and make it hard for them to oppose this idea.”

The provincial NDP leader said she found the new regulation, “disconcerting.”

“I don’t believe that the wearing of a garment for religious or cultural purposes is something that I have the right to tell somebody they can or can’t do,” said Andrea Horwath Tuesday.

And Ontario’s Citizenship and Immigration Minister Charles Sousa said the decision falls under the federal government’s jurisdiction.

“That said, we always want to ensure changes don’t hinder our diversity, which we believe is one of Ontario’s biggest strengths,” Sousa said.

Older Canadians and the most nationalist province in the country. Why is that not even remotely surprising?

[dre]

It's not that I don't like the veil - although I don't - it's more that I don't like what it represents, the mindset of religious fanaticism and ignorance behind it.

Then you shouldnt wear one. But some people might feel diferent and they should be free to wear one if they choose.

[olp1fan]

Older Canadians and the most nationalist province in the country. Why is that not even remotely surprising?

still a strong majority in every age group and provinces

enough man, youre out of touch with canadians