The Bigoted Liberal Party of Canada, and the Predictable NDP

[Smallc]

just isn't plausible that in the entire country there weren't others as qualified and bilingual...

It's entirely plausible. This isn't just some job.

[wyly]

It's entirely plausible. This isn't just some job.

ya it is just some job like any other...essentially a CFO of which there are many in the country...

[Handsome Rob]

the majority of canadians 2/3s believe federal employees(and judges) should be bilingual despite the fact that most of them are not bilingual...

Have a source for that?

[cybercoma]

The AG does not personally go through the papers. Teams of auditors and financial analysts go out and do interviews and check files, then they make reports which go up the ladder. The higher they go, the more likely they are to be bilingual.

Then I see no reason why the AG himself or herself needs to be bilingual. Frankly, I think bilingualism as a qualification for the job is ridiculous. I think they should maintain that a person need to become bilingual, but they would probably get better talent if they just hired the best person for the job and trained them in their non-native language. Unfortunately, the problem could arise that they don't learn the second language. So it's a tough one.

[cybercoma]

Here is what I'd do in the next election. I would have every conservative MP in British Columbia tell everyone they see that the Liberals and NDP have, as a matter of official policy, that no British Columbian can ever work at any high level in their own federal government. I would point out that the level of bilingualism the NDP insists must be a prerequisite for any federal position shuts out virtually all British Columbians - and indeed, virtually any western Canadian. I would hammer away on the fact the Liberals and NDP are disgusted by the notion that any British Columbian would be hired to do any important job for the federal government, and that, in whoring themselves to Quebec, those parties no longer have the best interests of British Columbians in mind. When BCs Supreme Court seat opens up, the NDP and Liberals will appoint a Quebecer to fill it, as they will every other senior federal job. I would hammer away at that in every meeting, and see how many seats the Libs and NDP lose in the West. The same strategy would work well in Alberta and Saskatchewan, as well as in Eastern Canada and most of Ontario, too.

Except that's completely false. It presupposes that no one in BC is bilingual. This is obviously not the case, regardless of how few there are.

[cybercoma]

The problem is that the level of bilingualism required for senior and management jobs is so high that if you insist that all applicants have it then virtually all senior federal positions will be taken by Quebecers or Francophones from outside Quebec.

There's nothing keeping anglophones from learning French other than it being completely unnecessary for most people in the rest of Canada. They make it necessary in the federal government in order to preserve the language in this country. Otherwise, everyone would eventually switch over to English.

[cybercoma]

And that was 10 years ago.

10 years ago less than 18% of Canadians met the basic qualifications for a high-level federal government job. Are we really promoting the best of the best when over 82% of the population is not qualified by virtue of being unilingual?

I agree with people being bilingual in these positions; however, I don't agree it should be a pre-requisite. If the government feels it needs to preserve our French hertiage and I believe they should, then they ought to fund training for the best qualified individuals to be able to operate in both languages. Instead, we have a system where we disqualify the vast majority of people for such positions because they don't speak French, which is the first language of about 22.3% of Canadians. Incidentally, English is the first-language of 58%, the other 20% being a combination of non-official languages. Now those 20% allophones, whose first-language is neither English nor French, have to be fluent in at least 3 languages to hold a position in the federal government. Not that it's impossible, but it's unlikely that an allophone will be fluent in both official languages.

Long story short, bilingualism should be a requirement for the job, but not a pre-requisite. We should be hiring the people that are best qualified for the position, regardless of their fluency. As a condition of their employment, we ought to train them, so that they can become fluent in the official language that they're not fluent in.

[Smallc]

I agree with people being bilingual in these positions; however, I don't agree it should be a pre-requisite.

That's exactly how I feel....outside of a job like GG, or the Chief Justice, or the PM, preferably.

[cybercoma]

I don't even think it needs to be a pre-req for GG or Chief Justice. And I only think it needs to be a pre-req for a PM because he or she needs to be elected and it's an optics thing. You don't want to alienate French voters and English voters that believe you should speak French. That's only for the practical reason of getting elected though. Otherwise, I would say not even the PM.

[Smallc]

Well, I just feel that those three offices are meant to represent Canada, and so they should speak Canada's languages.

[Evening Star]

Here is what I'd do in the next election. I would have every conservative MP in British Columbia tell everyone they see that the Liberals and NDP have, as a matter of official policy, that no British Columbian can ever work at any high level in their own federal government. I would point out that the level of bilingualism the NDP insists must be a prerequisite for any federal position shuts out virtually all British Columbians - and indeed, virtually any western Canadian. I would hammer away on the fact the Liberals and NDP are disgusted by the notion that any British Columbian would be hired to do any important job for the federal government, and that, in whoring themselves to Quebec, those parties no longer have the best interests of British Columbians in mind. When BCs Supreme Court seat opens up, the NDP and Liberals will appoint a Quebecer to fill it, as they will every other senior federal job. I would hammer away at that in every meeting, and see how many seats the Libs and NDP lose in the West. The same strategy would work well in Alberta and Saskatchewan, as well as in Eastern Canada and most of Ontario, too.

I'm sure the Liberals would be terrified of losing all their seats in the West...

[Evening Star]

Anyway, my feeling right now is that

i) staging a walkout is ridiculous

and

ii) bilingualism should probably not be a requirement for this job

but

iii) since it is a requirement, it's certainly fair to question why the requirement was waived in this case. I'm big on procedure and requirements for important positions should not be just waived lightly. It's entirely possible that there's a good reason as Smallc suggests but it's fair to want to know what it was.

[Smallc]

iii) since it is a requirement, it's certainly fair to question why the requirement was waived in this case.

I would agree with you. There's a theory that since he was the AG for NB, the government thought he in fact was fluently bilingual. Believe it or not, I think that could be a possibility.

That said, shifting of requirements does happen during a hiring process.

[Shwa]

10 years ago less than 18% of Canadians met the basic qualifications for a high-level federal government job. Are we really promoting the best of the best when over 82% of the population is not qualified by virtue of being unilingual?

I am sure there are other factors, other than bilingualism, that would disqualify more Canadians for a high-level government job. That being said, there is nothing saying that the most qualified persons are withing that 18% to begin with. IOW - the best of the best is represented in that 18% of bilingual persons. Especially when bilingualism is required, as per the original qualifications for the AG job.

I agree with people being bilingual in these positions; however, I don't agree it should be a pre-requisite. If the government feels it needs to preserve our French hertiage and I believe they should, then they ought to fund training for the best qualified individuals to be able to operate in both languages. Instead, we have a system where we disqualify the vast majority of people for such positions because they don't speak French, which is the first language of about 22.3% of Canadians. Incidentally, English is the first-language of 58%, the other 20% being a combination of non-official languages. Now those 20% allophones, whose first-language is neither English nor French, have to be fluent in at least 3 languages to hold a position in the federal government. Not that it's impossible, but it's unlikely that an allophone will be fluent in both official languages.

It could be that there were no suitable candidates that were bilingual and they had to settle for their second choice. But there has been no information about this or any magical "skills" that the successful candidate possesses. Thus it looks like the CPC altered the job qualifications to suit political purposes. You know, get the con AG in there so the free for all pork barrelling can begin. It helps to have a friendly AG in there when you are ripping off the public.

Long story short, bilingualism should be a requirement for the job, but not a pre-requisite. We should be hiring the people that are best qualified for the position, regardless of their fluency. As a condition of their employment, we ought to train them, so that they can become fluent in the official language that they're not fluent in.

I agree. Except in positions that require bilingualism and there are plenty of them out there.

[cybercoma]

I don't see how this guy wasn't bilingual. I can't even get a low-level NB Government Position without being fluently bilingual. You can't even apply for a job at the local library without being bilingual.

[CPCFTW]

If we required all senior people working for the federal government to be bilingual on application that would inevitably mean we would have to say that 99% of all senior people will be residents of Quebec, or a few small parts of Eastern Ontario and New Brunswick. We would be shutting out 98% of the population of Canada, and selecting those who should be our best from a very, very small population. It is unlikely this would result in us having the best people. In fact, the odds are 50-1 we would NOT get the best people.

Only a small percentage of Canadians outside Quebec are bilingual. And a much smaller percentage are actually fluent enough to be able to function in the other language at a high level involving complex technical discussions.

Actually the odds are 50-1 that we won't get the best person.

My statistics are a bit rusty, so correct me if I'm wrong, but pretty sure the odds that we don't get the best people would be 0.02^315,000 (which is infinitesimally small). Of course it can be argued that the odds any job is filled by the best person is very small.. However excluding 98% of the population is a surefire way of ensuring you don't get the best people.

Note: 315,000 is the amount of federal government jobs in Canada.

This also excludes the possibility that any of the 2% selected for any one job is not the best person for other federal government jobs as well.

Edited November 4, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Shwa]

I don't see how this guy wasn't bilingual. I can't even get a low-level NB Government Position without being fluently bilingual. You can't even apply for a job at the local library without being bilingual.

He had special, magical skills that make conservative pork barrelling appear altruistic. That transcends the requirement for bilingualism. Or ethics.

[wyly]

Have a source for that?

a poll cited on cbc/national two days ago...

[fellowtraveller]

Are numbers different in English and French?

Doesn't Quebec use 0 through 9 too?

[Argus]

Except that's completely false. It presupposes that no one in BC is bilingual. This is obviously not the case, regardless of how few there are.

The official bilingual rate for BC is 7%. That means that even if we take that as absolute fluency (extraordinarily unlikely) 93% of British Columbians, regardless of how outstanding they are in their field, will be shunted aside by the NDP and Liberals in favour of a far less skilled and talented Quebecer or Francophone.

But realistically, as someone who has worked in the federal government and lived in Ottawa for decades, only a very small percentage of those who consider themselves bilingual would even pass the federal government's lower level tests. For CCC level, the highest fluency level for the government (except for translators, who must be even better) only a very, very small group even within the federal government can meet the standards. My personal estimate is of those British Columbians who claim they are bilingual, less than 25% could even pass the lower level tests. Much less than 10% could pass the higher tests, and most of those would be ex Quebecers who moved west.

So in reality, less than 1% of British Columbians would be eligible for any sort of senior position in the federal government under a Liberal or NDP government, regardless of their qualifictions. So I'd say the claim is as close to reality as it needs to be.

[Argus]

There's nothing keeping anglophones from learning French other than it being completely unnecessary for most people in the rest of Canada. They make it necessary in the federal government in order to preserve the language in this country. Otherwise, everyone would eventually switch over to English.

Even if you learn it you won't keep it unless you use it constantly. There are plenty of people who went through their entire school lives in French immersion who find that a few years after they graduate they can barely string a few sentences together.

[dre]

I dunno...

If you compare our government over the last 15 years or so to other modern nations, it seems like we have higher quality public servants than most, with the current requirements in place.

[Argus]

I dunno...

If you compare our government over the last 15 years or so to other modern nations, it seems like we have higher quality public servants than most, with the current requirements in place.

And just how much do you know about the efficiency and effectiveness of the Danish civil service? Or the German civil service? Or the Swiss or Swedes or Fins or Dutch or any other public service other than the U.S.?

And how much do you actually know about even them?

For that matter, how much do you actually know about the quality of OUR public service?

Edited November 6, 2011 by Argus

[cybercoma]

It doesn't matter if he/she does know. It still cannot tell you how well we would do if there was no requirement for bilingualism in the federal government. In fact, one could point to the decline of Canada from that point on (ie, stripping of the military and turning our foreign service in to a joke when it had been the greatest in the world at one point). Granted, there are myriad factors at play in that decline. The model that I believe worked, for the Liberals anyway, had always been to have an anglophone, who perhaps spoke some french, with a Quebec Lieutenant. There had never been this expectation of bilingualism in the country and I'm not even really sure Trudeau expected bilingualism. He just wanted people who spoke French to be able to use it when they conducted their business with the federal government. That doesn't mean everyone in the federal government needs to speak and understand French at all.

Edited November 6, 2011 by cybercoma

[Argus]

It doesn't matter if he/she does know. It still cannot tell you how well we would do if there was no requirement for bilingualism in the federal government. In fact, one could point to the decline of Canada from that point on (ie, stripping of the military and turning our foreign service in to a joke when it had been the greatest in the world at one point). Granted, there are myriad factors at play in that decline. The model that I believe worked, for the Liberals anyway, had always been to have an anglophone, who perhaps spoke some french, with a Quebec Lieutenant. There had never been this expectation of bilingualism in the country and I'm not even really sure Trudeau expected bilingualism. He just wanted people who spoke French to be able to use it when they conducted their business with the federal government. That doesn't mean everyone in the federal government needs to speak and understand French at all.

There's a quote from Trudeau, I believe, which said something to the effect that 'the unilingual public servant is finished'.

I know that for many jobs in the public service, bilingualism became the requirement BEFORE any other talents, skills or education were even considered. That included CSIS, btw, not just in management but for agents and analysts, as well as senior officers in the military and all management and executive jobs in the public service in the national capital region (which means all the biggies).

So right off the bat you're screening out about over 90% of the population. In effect, as far as the public service is concerned, we're a country of about 3.4 million people. All their main staff are drawn from this population. And in terms of the very senior positions, where a higher level of fluency is required, we're a country of more like 1 million. Clearly, in a country of 1 million people, there's going to be a lot less talent available than in one of 34 million.