Destroying Government Records is Illegal

[Smallc]

It can also be seen as an expression about the status qou being very acceptable to much of the population...or it can also be seen through a lense where people are lazy, and choose to be uninformed.

[Shwa]

As was stated in the article quoted, in which linked to another article……….no, nothing illegal.

Nope, I stand corrected. It has nothing to do with ATI or Library Act which, even with the exclusions, do not give permission to destroy the records; the Firearms Act does.

Firearms Act - Records of the Registrar

Destruction of records

84. The Registrar may destroy records kept in the Canadian Firearms Registry at such times and in such circumstances as may be prescribed.

On the surface, it seems perfectly legal to destroy the records in the registry.

[fellowtraveller]

If Quebec wants to recreate it, we've already spent billions on it, why shouldn't they have access to the data?

Because the people who provided the data on their private lives to the federal government did not agree to the disclosure of that info to anybody else for any other purposes, other than those specified when the data was collected..

It is a legitimate privacy issue.

It is also useless inforamtion for the province, just as useless as it was when the feds collected it. The registry database is perhaps half populated, since so very many gun owners simply ignored the registry.

[capricorn]

It has nothing to do with ATI or Library Act which, even with the exclusions, do not give permission to destroy the records; the Firearms Act does.

Firearms Act - Records of the Registrar

On the surface, it seems perfectly legal to destroy the records in the registry.

I also think this is the correct interpretation. It boils down to a question of ownership and who has control over the records. Federal records belong to the institutions that created and collected them, and ultimately only they decide when their operational or administrative value has expired. That authority extends to when the institutions want the records destroyed. Archives Canada could try to make a case that the Registry records have archival value and should be kept. They could win the argument that those documents that contain policy development and legal instruments have enduring value and provide a valuable tool for researchers. The case cannot easily be made with regard to routine records and the personal records of individuals housed in the Registry.

In terms of government policy on information management, here's how Treasury Board defines the role of Archives Canada.

8.2 Library and Archives Canada

Library and Archives Canada (LAC) is responsible for administering the Library and Archives of Canada Act. Specifically, LAC:

8.2.1 acquires, preserves, makes known and facilitates access to the documentary heritage of Canada;

8.2.2 preserves the published heritage of the nation and of the Government of Canada;

8.2.3 provides direction and assistance on recordkeeping for the Government of Canada;

8.2.4 identifies, selects, acquires and preserves government records, as defined in the Library and Archives of Canada Act, in all media considered to be of enduring value to Canada as documentary heritage;

8.2.5 issues records disposition authorities, pursuant to section 12 of the Library and Archives of Canada Act, to enable departments to carry out their records retention and disposition plans;

8.2.6 manages and protects the essential records and less frequently referenced material of federal government departments; and

8.2.7 assists federal government departments in ensuring that all of their published information is easily accessible to decision makers and is available to the public.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pol/doc-eng.aspx?section=text&id=12742

[Shwa]

I also think this is the correct interpretation. It boils down to a question of ownership and who has control over the records. Federal records belong to the institutions that created and collected them, and ultimately only they decide when their operational or administrative value has expired. That authority extends to when the institutions want the records destroyed. Archives Canada could try to make a case that the Registry records have archival value and should be kept. They could win the argument that those documents that contain policy development and legal instruments have enduring value and provide a valuable tool for researchers. The case cannot easily be made with regard to routine records and the personal records of individuals housed in the Registry.

In terms of government policy on information management, here's how Treasury Board defines the role of Archives Canada.

More precisely, the registry would no longer contain 'records' according to government record management policy. I suppose they might have some sort of demographic value which the Archivist could ask for preservation, but I doubt they ended up on the Records and Disposal manual.

[Guest Derek L]

Nope, I stand corrected. It has nothing to do with ATI or Library Act which, even with the exclusions, do not give permission to destroy the records; the Firearms Act does.

Firearms Act - Records of the Registrar

On the surface, it seems perfectly legal to destroy the records in the registry.

Yes, what they propose is perfectly legal, but, one can debate whether it’s moral or not……..I personally think it is…..but that’s just my opinion.

[Guest Derek L]

I also think this is the correct interpretation. It boils down to a question of ownership and who has control over the records. Federal records belong to the institutions that created and collected them, and ultimately only they decide when their operational or administrative value has expired. That authority extends to when the institutions want the records destroyed. Archives Canada could try to make a case that the Registry records have archival value and should be kept. They could win the argument that those documents that contain policy development and legal instruments have enduring value and provide a valuable tool for researchers. The case cannot easily be made with regard to routine records and the personal records of individuals housed in the Registry.

In terms of government policy on information management, here's how Treasury Board defines the role of Archives Canada.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pol/doc-eng.aspx?section=text&id=12742

Exactly, it all boils down to Personal Privacy………..The all encompassing Privacy Act states quite clearly:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/P-21/page-2.html#h-5

Disposal of personal information

(3) A government institution shall dispose of personal information under the control of the institution in accordance with the regulations and in accordance with any directives or guidelines issued by the designated minister in relation to the disposal of that information.

And here:

Use of personal information

7. Personal information under the control of a government institution shall not, without the consent of the individual to whom it relates, be used by the institution except

(a) for the purpose for which the information was obtained or compiled by the institution or for a use consistent with that purpose; or

( for a purpose for which the information may be disclosed to the institution under subsection 8(2).

This all relates back to the earlier post I made citing what the Library and archives of Canada is entitled to.

I own 19 firearms, and never once signed any form of consent allowing my information to be passed around, now you multiply this by the millions of gun owners across Canada and you can start to imagine the lawsuits that would be filed against the Government that did.

Putting an unedited copy in the Library & Archives is just plain stupid anyways and would open up a Pandora’s box relating private gun ownership………Imagine a reporter gets a copy of the full registry through the Freedom of Information Act and publishes the list………or even if a Government employee leaks it to the press……..All that will do is hand criminals a full inventoried shopping list of firearms across the country………And I guarantee that the moment said registry is released with firearms owners names, addresses and list of firearms within said household, you will see the end of current safe storage rules followed, with gun owners removing the trigger locks and keeping a loaded gun(s) near by at all times for personal protection……It literally would become the Wild West.

[cybercoma]

I don't want to pay taxes either. It's an invasion of my personal privacy for bureaucrats to so how much money I make and from where I make it.

[Guest Derek L]

I don't want to pay taxes either. It's an invasion of my personal privacy for bureaucrats to so how much money I make and from where I make it.

That’s within your right……..there are safeguards for your privacy………If you feel the CRA hasn’t followed their guidelines, lawyer-up.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ntcs/scrty-eng.html

Suspected breaches of confidentiality of taxpayer information: If a taxpayer tells the CRA about a suspected breach of confidentiality of personal information, the Agency can put a stop to any outside request concerning that taxpayer’s account. The CRA will tell the taxpayer that the Agency will disable all online access to the taxpayer’s account immediately, whether it be My Account for Individuals, Quick Access, My Business Account, Represent a Client, NETFILE, TELEFILE, or EFILE. Online access can later be restored at the taxpayer’s request by calling the e-service Helpdesk at 1-800-714-7257.

Disciplinary measures: CRA officers immediately and thoroughly investigate any security breach or allegation of unauthorized access or disclosure of taxpayer information. Any employee found to have acted inappropriately is subject to disciplinary action, up to and including termination of employment.

Network access denied to departing employees: Departing CRA employees have to return their employee ID cards, and steps are taken to end their network access.

[capricorn]

Putting an unedited copy in the Library & Archives is just plain stupid anyways and would open up a Pandora’s box relating private gun ownership………

Transferring ownership of the personal data from the Canadian Firearms Program (RCMP) to the Archives is a lot more problematic than many people realize. The mandate of the Archives includes facilitating access by the public to the information it holds. And as you point out, there are those who would find ways to gain access and use the information for who knows what purpose. As an aside, the more records the Archives takes over from federal institutions, the more human and material resources they'll require to administer, store and manage them. So I'm not surprised that the top dogs at Archives Canada would want to get their paws on those records.

Edited November 2, 2011 by capricorn

[WWWTT]

I don't want to get too involved in this thread but I can add something.

If the government is serious about completely destroying the registry records I believe it may be possible for someone/group/party to file a claim in court asking a judge to immediately suspend the governments intention of destroying the documents until a proper hearing can properly resolve what the conclusion of these documents should be.

This to me sounds entirely a possibility.

WWWTT

[Guest Derek L]

I don't want to get too involved in this thread but I can add something.

If the government is serious about completely destroying the registry records I believe it may be possible for someone/group/party to file a claim in court asking a judge to immediately suspend the governments intention of destroying the documents until a proper hearing can properly resolve what the conclusion of these documents should be.

This to me sounds entirely a possibility.

WWWTT

On what grounds could a group or individual file a court injunction to stop the Government from destroying the LGR?

[Shwa]

This all relates back to the earlier post I made citing what the Library and archives of Canada is entitled to.

Under the Library and Archives Act, they are entitled to the registry providing it has some usefulness or archival value. The only things that are exempt from immediate custondianship by the Library and Archives, are Privy Council documents and documents or information according to Schedule II of the ATI Act. The Firearms Act is not listed in Schedule II. The RCMP can destroy the registry documents when they no longer become "records" as defined by the various Acts and policies. For example, when someone no longer has their license or dies or whatnot, their registration no longer becomes a record for the purposes of what it was collected for.

I own 19 firearms, and never once signed any form of consent allowing my information to be passed around, now you multiply this by the millions of gun owners across Canada and you can start to imagine the lawsuits that would be filed against the Government that did.

If you signed a PAL you most certainly did sign consent:

Information contained in this application is obtained under the authority of the Firearms Act. The information will be used to determine eligibility and to administer and enforce the firearms legislation. In addition to the provisions outlined in the Firearms Act, individual rights regarding

personal information are governed by the applicable federal, provincial or territorial legislation relating to access to information and privacy.

This includes any approved agreements between government institutions to share that information for whatever purpose they need it for. Also, records containing personal information are subject to subpoena by law enforcement agencies.

Putting an unedited copy in the Library & Archives is just plain stupid anyways and would open up a Pandora’s box relating private gun ownership………Imagine a reporter gets a copy of the full registry through the Freedom of Information Act and publishes the list………or even if a Government employee leaks it to the press……..All that will do is hand criminals a full inventoried shopping list of firearms across the country………And I guarantee that the moment said registry is released with firearms owners names, addresses and list of firearms within said household, you will see the end of current safe storage rules followed, with gun owners removing the trigger locks and keeping a loaded gun(s) near by at all times for personal protection……It literally would become the Wild West.

I don't think you understand the nature of how the ATIP Acts work. The Archives holds millions of records that contain all kinds of detailed and possibly embarassing or harmful personal information as well as trade secrets, government secrets, detailed budgetary information and so on. This information is restricted by the ATIP Acts from being made public on the whole. If government staff leaked any such information they would be committing an illegal act and would be charged.

[Shwa]

On what grounds could a group or individual file a court injunction to stop the Government from destroying the LGR?

On the grounds that they form historical records of a value to Canadian heritage, which could be done through the National Archives. Also, anyone could seek an injunction, but I highly doubt a court would give them one for this. Clearly, once the need for the registry has been completed, the information is of little value to the government and the Firearms Act gives the Registrar the ability to destroy it.

[Guest Derek L]

If you signed a PAL

Under the Library and Archives Act, they are entitled to the registry providing it has some usefulness or archival value. The only things that are exempt from immediate custondianship by the Library and Archives, are Privy Council documents and documents or information according to Schedule II of the ATI Act. The Firearms Act is not listed in Schedule II. The RCMP can destroy the registry documents when they no longer become "records" as defined by the various Acts and policies. For example, when someone no longer has their license or dies or whatnot, their registration no longer becomes a record for the purposes of what it was collected for.

And what usefulness and/or archival value is that? And who is going to make changes to the registry, once personal information changes (i.e. death/ change address/sale or purchase of firearms)? Wouldn’t the registry no longer be of usefulness once these above changes take place?

If you signed a PAL you most certainly did sign consent:

I've never signed consent for my personal information to be kept as a “historic record”.

This includes any approved agreements between government institutions to share that information for whatever purpose they need it for. Also, records containing personal information are subject to subpoena by law enforcement agencies.

Define the governments ability to share information……….And for what purposes and with whom….They don’t have blank cheque.

I don't think you understand the nature of how the ATIP Acts work. The Archives holds millions of records that contain all kinds of detailed and possibly embarassing or harmful personal information as well as trade secrets, government secrets, detailed budgetary information and so on. This information is restricted by the ATIP Acts from being made public on the whole. If government staff leaked any such information they would be committing an illegal act and would be charged.

I fully understand how it works in principle and practice……..documents are leaked all the time.

On the grounds that they form historical records of a value to Canadian heritage, which could be done through the National Archives. Also, anyone could seek an injunction, but I highly doubt a court would give them one for this. Clearly, once the need for the registry has been completed, the information is of little value to the government and the Firearms Act gives the Registrar the ability to destroy it.

Exactly my point, the registry will be of little value once it’s no longer needed, and for personal privacy, it should be fully destroyed………I don’t see any value keeping it for a “historic record” since the day it is scrapped tens of thousands of rifles and shotguns will change hands, people will move and die…….unless it’s continually updated, it inherent value will be zero.

[capricorn]

And what usefulness and/or archival value is that?

Other than perhaps the policy, legislative and regulatory development files, none.

Broadly speaking, the archival acquisition or protection of government records by Library and Archives Canada is related to their national significance as determined through an exhaustive appraisal process in support of the following general objectives:

to preserve selected records which document the deliberations, decisions and actions of government in relation to its assigned business functions, programs and activities, as well as records which establish the sovereignty, organization and administration of government.

to preserve selected records which provide government and the public with accurate, authentic and integral information about the policies, decisions and programs of government institutions over time for the purposes of review, scrutiny and understanding;

to preserve selected records which document the impact of government decision-making upon citizens and groups in Canada and the interaction between the Canadian public and the federal state;

to preserve selected records that are considered essential to protect the collective and individual rights and privileges of Canadians and their social, cultural and physical environment;

to preserve selected records which contain information unique to government that will substantially enrich understanding about Canada's history, society, culture and people;

to preserve selected records that the Government of Canada is required to maintain for a substantial period of time by law, or by virtue of their ongoing, long-term business value to government.

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/government/disposition/007007-1042-e.html

From historical and archival value perspectives, the personal data contained in the LGR does not fit the definition that it is of "national significance".

[Guest Derek L]

Other than perhaps the policy, legislative and regulatory development files, none.

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/government/disposition/007007-1042-e.html

From historical and archival value perspectives, the personal data contained in the LGR does not fit the definition that it is of "national significance".

Indeed…….off for the third reading and then the Senate……then goodbye!

[WWWTT]

On what grounds could a group or individual file a court injunction to stop the Government from destroying the LGR?

I am not sure on what grounds someone may use,but I would not doubt that there "may" be several reasons.

But heres the catch,it will cost money to launch a legal campaign to save the registry!

And the government has inexhaustable resources,their called "taxpayer revenues"!

WWWTT

[Guest Derek L]

I am not sure on what grounds someone may use,but I would not doubt that there "may" be several reasons.

But heres the catch,it will cost money to launch a legal campaign to save the registry!

And the government has inexhaustable resources,their called "taxpayer revenues"!

WWWTT

You think the Tories are going to tie up their own bill in court?

[Shwa]

And what usefulness and/or archival value is that? And who is going to make changes to the registry, once personal information changes (i.e. death/ change address/sale or purchase of firearms)? Wouldn’t the registry no longer be of usefulness once these above changes take place?

One would think that once the license is no longer valid, the value would be nil. However, archivists might find some historical value in the statistics, etc.

I've never signed consent for my personal information to be kept as a “historic record”.

If you signed the PAL you did. See the various information holding policies from government departments and the ATIP Acts. The Firearms Act gives the Registrar the ability to destroy records, but there isn't anything saying they can't transfer the whole lot to the Archives as is.

Define the governments ability to share information……….And for what purposes and with whom….They don’t have blank cheque.

The government can, and usually do, make data-sharing agreements with other government departments, provincial and municipal governments. This is routine.

I fully understand how it works in principle and practice……..documents are leaked all the time.

Documents are leaked all the time?

Exactly my point, the registry will be of little value once it’s no longer needed, and for personal privacy, it should be fully destroyed………I don’t see any value keeping it for a “historic record” since the day it is scrapped tens of thousands of rifles and shotguns will change hands, people will move and die…….unless it’s continually updated, it inherent value will be zero.

I am thinking the same thing, however archivists are weird, professional pack-rats of information. One thing that can be done is redact the personal identifiers from the registry and otherwise keep it intact.

[Guest Derek L]

One would think that once the license is no longer valid, the value would be nil. However, archivists might find some historical value in the statistics, etc.

If the data pertaining to what is owned by whom is altered (deleted), I’d have no problem with that.

ie X many Remington 870 Shotguns & LE .303s across the country etc

[Guest Derek L]

If you signed the PAL you did. See the various information holding policies from government departments and the ATIP Acts. The Firearms Act gives the Registrar the ability to destroy records, but there isn't anything saying they can't transfer the whole lot to the Archives as is.

And the likelihood the registrar will pass along said information?

The government can, and usually do, make data-sharing agreements with other government departments, provincial and municipal governments. This is routine.

Yes, but said agreement must be in place prior to the transfer of data…No such ones are currently.

Documents are leaked all the time?

Are they never?

I am thinking the same thing, however archivists are weird, professional pack-rats of information. One thing that can be done is redact the personal identifiers from the registry and otherwise keep it intact.

Didn't read this part prior to hitting reply above........I'd have no problem with the transfer of data if my personal info was deleted........

[Handsome Rob]

Isn't this entire argument a moot point?

The registry wasn't useful as a federal database, it will be even less useful to Quebec.

Possession of a record that shows I owned firearms in winter of 2011/12, what value does that have? I sell one of my firearms, and 2 years later they come knocking on my door because they have nothing current or of value?

Say I live in Quebec, and am not comfortable with the notion of the Quebec government having control of such information. I call up the Quebec government, 'I'm selling my Norinco M305 to my friend in Alberta, which doesn't have a registry, therefore it's certificate is no longer valid. The firearms need not ever even be removed from my safe.

I live in Quebec and want to acquire a firearm, I'll be damned if I'm going to buy it from a local store and register it. I'm going to buy it from MarStar and ship it to a PO box in Ontario, or from a Yank retailer and ship it to a PO Box stateside.

What is the point in trying to create an even bigger failure out of the ashes of a failure? If they want to throw money away, they can have my bank account number, I'd be happy to entertain and make them feel good.

I supposed their could be a minor use if they amended the law so that cops would have to register their sidearms. It would allow usage in investigations in to the summary executions of rogue (possibly Al Queda) cattle.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Handsome Rob

[cybercoma]

Whether people here can "imagine" value in it or not, the point is that government records shouldn't be destroyed. It's now historical records that ought to be preserved, regardless of any functional purpose they may or may not have. It's like saying, what's the point of keeping land petitions from Black Loyalist Refugees in Nova Scotia. We're no longer British North America and they serve no purpose any more. The point is that it's a record of our heritage now and there's no purpose in destroying the historical record.

[Argus]

By declaring that they want to destroy the Long Gun Registry records, the Conservative Government has announced their intentions to commit a criminal act under s(12)(1) of the Libraries and Archives of Canada Act. Although Warren Kinsella is obviously a self-declared "Liberal spin-doctor", there's really no other way to spin this. Maybe I'll petition my MP for mandatory minimum legislation on this.

Give it up. The stupid registry is history, and the dustbin is the proper place for all its records.