Long-gun registry to be shot down Thursday

[blueblood]

I don't see how it could be.

Exactly, why would a crook register a gun they bought out of the back of a van. If anything the registry could create a complacency moral hazard.

[Guest Derek L]

I was replying to the claim that "criminals don't register their guns", which gets repeated over-and-over again. I'm not claiming the LGR stops crimes. However, the information is valuable to police officers responding to calls and 911 dispatchers when assessing the severity and risk of situations. At least that's what the proponents claim. That's not what I was responding to though.

How is it valuable to police officers really though? If they get a call to a domestic dispute, and the registry shows no legal guns in the house, do they relax and drop their guard? Of course not………

[Shakeyhands]

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Edited October 28, 2011 by Shakeyhands

[Shakeyhands]

How is it valuable to police officers really though? If they get a call to a domestic dispute, and the registry shows no legal guns in the house, do they relax and drop their guard? Of course not………

No, but if it's a domestic disturbance or a mental health issue, they know the guns are there and can take them temporarily in to their care to remove them from the situation.

Not much different that what is taught in the CFSC, though that was brought up as a voluntary thing to do, I'm sure not all would do that, so it gives the police the intelligence to be able to do so to protect the owner or anyone else in the house.

[cybercoma]

Exactly, why would a crook register a gun

Did you intentionally just skip over my response to this idea?

[Smallc]

No, but if it's a domestic disturbance or a mental health issue, they know the guns are there and can take them temporarily in to their care to remove them from the situation.

If they registered their guns....or if they registered all of them. I know people who have some guns registered, and some not. Who's to say they are in the same place?

[Wilber]

How is it valuable to police officers really though? If they get a call to a domestic dispute, and the registry shows no legal guns in the house, do they relax and drop their guard? Of course not………

It will tell them that a resident of that house owns a registered weapon and what kind. Of course they won't relax but it is useful information, if somewhat limited. I don't think this is a black and white issue. The registry is not without some value, the question is, is it worth it or could the money be better spent elsewhere?

I don't have problem with registration in principal. I own a rifle and it didn't bother me to register it. I just wonder if it is worth the trouble and expense.

[cybercoma]

If they registered their guns....or if they registered all of them. I know people who have some guns registered, and some not. Who's to say they are in the same place?

That's like saying some people don't follow the rules, so we shouldn't make them.

[cybercoma]

It will tell them that a resident of that house owns a registered weapon and what kind. Of course they won't relax but it is useful information, if somewhat limited. I don't think this is a black and white issue. The registry is not without some value, the question is, is it worth it or could the money be better spent elsewhere?

I don't have problem with registration in principal. I own a rifle and it didn't bother me to register it. I just wonder if it is worth the trouble and expense.

Ultimately, it created jobs in a province where they're becoming a luxury.

[Smallc]

That's like saying some people don't follow the rules, so we shouldn't make them.

Not some, many. And you're right, actually, we shouldn't make unenforceable rules that people won't follow.

[Smallc]

Ultimately, it created jobs in a province where they're becoming a luxury.

Well, the government has already committed to replacement more jobs than will be lost through the moving of a government pay centre.

[cybercoma]

Not some, many. And you're right, actually, we shouldn't make unenforceable rules that people won't follow.

So you're ok with legalizing drugs and prostitution?

[cybercoma]

Well, the government has already committed to replacement more jobs than will be lost through the moving of a government pay centre.

That's what they said, but the centre won't be running for years and it actually doesn't replace all the lost jobs. No matter, I don't think they should just do things for the purpose of creating jobs anyway.

[Smallc]

So you're ok with legalizing drugs and prostitution?

I've said as much numerous times.

[Smallc]

That's what they said, but the centre won't be running for years and it actually doesn't replace all the lost jobs.

The payroll centre will have more people working at it (550) than work at the CFAC (200), and the CFAC isn't going away.

Oh, and the payroll centre will being operation this spring with 146 people starting out.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Smallc

[Guest Derek L]

It will tell them that a resident of that house owns a registered weapon and what kind. Of course they won't relax but it is useful information, if somewhat limited. I don't think this is a black and white issue. The registry is not without some value, the question is, is it worth it or could the money be better spent elsewhere?

I don't have problem with registration in principal. I own a rifle and it didn't bother me to register it. I just wonder if it is worth the trouble and expense.

But it sure as hell won’t tell them if there’s a unregistered firearms in the house………..That’s the question……..how many times do police respond to a house with a legal firearm(s) versus and illegal one?

Is crime a common occurrence with legal gun owners? If so, shouldn’t the government reinvestigate to whom they are giving licenses?

[Guest Derek L]

No, but if it's a domestic disturbance or a mental health issue, they know the guns are there and can take them temporarily in to their care to remove them from the situation.

Not much different that what is taught in the CFSC, though that was brought up as a voluntary thing to do, I'm sure not all would do that, so it gives the police the intelligence to be able to do so to protect the owner or anyone else in the house.

Let’s be realistic……..if the Government is handing out PAL/RPALs to wing nuts, wife beaters etc, perhaps their process for granting a firearms licence is flawed……….But is this really the case? Is their any stats that show the vast majority of gun owners aren’t law abiding citizens?

[Guest Derek L]

So you're ok with legalizing drugs and prostitution?

I know you’re weren’t directing the question at me, but I (A Card carrying Conservative) am, for much the same reasons I’m opposed to excessive Government control into my life………If people want to use drugs, use or be a prostitute, let them……none of my business……….And as long as they’re adults and I’m not subsidizing it, I really don’t give two shits.

[Wilber]

But it sure as hell won’t tell them if there’s a unregistered firearms in the house………..That’s the question……..how many times do police respond to a house with a legal firearm(s) versus and illegal one?

Is crime a common occurrence with legal gun owners? If so, shouldn’t the government reinvestigate to whom they are giving licenses?

The police would be stupid not to use any tool you give them, particularly if it can have some bearing on their safety. A legal weapon can kill them just as dead as an illegal one. The effectiveness of the registry is open to debate and no doubt they have mixed opinions on that effectiveness within their own group, but it does give them one piece of information they would not otherwise have.

[Smallc]

When the tool does next to nothing, it's next to useless.

[Wilber]

When the tool does next to nothing, it's next to useless.

That is of course a matter of opinion and probably something you and I are not qualified to determine. I'm not advocating for or against, just pointing out that knowing a gun is in a home is useful information even if it doesn't tell you there isn't one.

[Guest Derek L]

The police would be stupid not to use any tool you give them, particularly if it can have some bearing on their safety. A legal weapon can kill them just as dead as an illegal one. The effectiveness of the registry is open to debate and no doubt they have mixed opinions on that effectiveness within their own group, but it does give them one piece of information they would not otherwise have.

Well that’s kinda my point……..How often are the police being called out on a 911 call from/about a house with legal firearms? If it’s more than the occasional call, perhaps we should look at the process of granting firearms licenses……perhaps further background checks etc?

[Wilber]

Well that’s kinda my point……..How often are the police being called out on a 911 call from/about a house with legal firearms? If it’s more than the occasional call, perhaps we should look at the process of granting firearms licenses……perhaps further background checks etc?

If that is the case, perhaps we should but until that happens, maybe we should try to keep an eye on as many as we can that are out there. If it came to a choice between restricting access or keeping track, which would you chose?

[Guest Derek L]

If that is the case, perhaps we should but until that happens, maybe we should try to keep an eye on as many as we can that are out there. If it came to a choice between restricting access or keeping track, which would you chose?

The restriction of access so to speak………We trust police officers and the military with firearms, in most cases, many of these people, fore that’s what they are, like you and I, are only teenagers or in their early twenties………I’d much rather a requirement that saw a required multi week(month?) night school (Government/RCMP administered) course to obtain a licence, with the end result for those that passed, the inherit “trust” that is given to police officer and the military, and zero future restrictions and registrations for the private user.

Wouldn’t it be better to weed out the nuts prior to them getting firearms and then tracking them?

That all stands if on the chance that current, legal firearms users, are indeed a plight on society…….Let’s see some facts…..Opinions/hunches/personal stories about legal gun owners don’t really add anything to the discussion………

(Not directed at you Wilber)

Edited October 29, 2011 by Derek L

[Handsome Rob]

As a "new" hunter who is waiting for my PAL to be approved, I still don't see what the big deal is with the LGR. Think about all the other things we register, I'd love someone to explain what the big deal is, seriously.

-Massive sums of money burning. $2 billion dollars, even if the bulk of it is already spent, why through bad money after bad? Why spend money on something that accomplishes nothing.

-Error rate? Here's some good quotes:

http://rkba.org/comment/brown/canada.html

Compliance with the new law has been poor. A large portion of gun owners say they have no intention of registering their guns and predictably, criminals are not registering their guns at all. Officials say that black market gun trafficking is thriving. Since the total number of guns in Canada is unknown, it will be impossible to determine how effective the system is. Any registration system must be accurate if it is going to be useful to law enforcement officers, but various reports coming from within the Justice Dept. indicate an error rate between 20 and 100 percent in the current database.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/westview/long-gun-registry-still-useless-64900952.html

The RCMP testified that it has too many errors to rely upon it in court. Criminals don't register their guns, hunters do.

http://dev.armspolicyresearch.net/featured-articles/53/

The Auditor General reported that the RCMP could not rely upon the registry in court on account of the large number of errors and omissions. New Zealand abandoned their long-gun registry in 1983 due to the high error rates.

That's not even getting into registered glue guns, cap guns, nail guns, hair dryers.....too many of those registrations exist.

Even if the rules are followed, it still isn't reliable. Their is nothing that says non-restricted firearms registered at address A have to be stored there. What of your summer cabin you use for hunting? What if you don't own a safe and store them at a friends house?

-Registration, time and time again, is the pre-cursor to confiscation. History repeats itself over and over again, and even if it is beyond a ridiculous idea here, it is still enough to make many weary of registration.

-Police use. Story's like this don't exactly inspire confidence.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2010/09/18/to-guns-seized.html?ref=rss

"I don't like the whole way the thing was handled," said Peter Alexander Por, who owns a 12-gauge shotgun and a .22-calibre rifle.

He said Toronto police recently phoned him to remind him his gun licence had expired. Fifteen minutes later, he said, they were at the door demanding that he hand over the guns.

"I thought it was intimidating. Am I going to say no? I am a law abiding citizen," he said.

Few months ago my car insurance expired without my noticing, they didn't show up at my door with a tow truck and no checkbook for compensation. Of course the crack dealers that have already done 8 three month sentences and community service, who cares about them.

The registry plain sucks, the only thing it has every accomplished is to manufacture criminals where none exist.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Handsome Rob