Long-gun registry to be shot down Thursday

[eyeball]

Are you suggesting I have to take my guns to some central warehouse somewhere?

Yes I am.

Where's that going to be, and whose going to be there when I wast to take off at four in the morning to go deer hunting? And how do I know some idiot didn't bang the scope on my rifle putting it away thus rendering it useless? That's an even dumber idea than the registry itself.

It'll be wherever your local armoury owners build it. I'd suggest existing gun clubs and shooting ranges etc. These will surely know how to attract and train staff to handle your weapons with care notwithstanding facilities that could allow owners to handle their weapons themselves, like their possessions in a safety deposit box. You could always check your gun out the day before you go hunting.

Is it fair to say you'll also be displeased with the suggestion every gun that is checked out is equipped with a GPS chip and coded information on intended use and expected date of return to the armoury? That by the way is the only thing I can see that will have the greatest impact on sudden rampage killings with firearms like the latest one in Alberta. I suppose GPS equipped guns could be stored at home if there was a system for owners to call into before using or transporting them somewhere off property. Of course this wouldn't prevent someone from from suddenly deciding to use their gun to commit murder or murder-suicide at home.

[Hydraboss]

As long as there are guns, there will be shootings.

As long as there are knives, there will be stabbings.

Deal with it.

Are you planning on microchipping everything in existence? Where does all this stop? I thought you were one of those people who accuses the current government of being "facist"?

[cybercoma]

Deal with it.

Yeah. You don't actually mean that because you seem to get bent out of shape when it's being dealt with.

[eyeball]

As long as there are guns, there will be shootings.

As long as there are knives, there will be stabbings.

Deal with it.

Knives will rarely if ever be used in the way guns are in sudden rampage murder-suicide shootings. The problem I have with just throwing up our hands and saying there's nothing we can do to prevent the sudden enraged insane use of firearms is that the state and elected representatives usually DO try to do something. Usually they pretend they've dealt with it by deflecting the issue into one of crime and then claim they're cracking down on that instead.

The longer there are politicians and governments who try to treat insanity as a crime the more the systems we use to deal with both crime and mental health will worsen.

Are you planning on microchipping everything in existence? Where does all this stop? I thought you were one of those people who accuses the current government of being "facist"?

I'm certainly not a big fan of state intrusion into my life but I'm also not averse to verifying my responsibility to society. Recall I have digital cameras and a GPS enabled black box that the state uses to verify my activities when I'm utilizing a valuable common property resource. I had the same willies you'd normally expect when I first had to submit to this sort of oversight but the alternative was to completely lose all opportunity to keep doing something I really like doing.

I can say now after a few years of it that it's no where near as scary or as intrusive as I imagined it would be.

The trick to implementing gun control is to make the gun owners and the gun industry responsible for coming up with a way to better control their use.

Edited December 23, 2011 by eyeball

[prairiechickin]

Yes I am.

It'll be wherever your local armoury owners build it. I'd suggest existing gun clubs and shooting ranges etc. These will surely know how to attract and train staff to handle your weapons with care notwithstanding facilities that could allow owners to handle their weapons themselves, like their possessions in a safety deposit box. You could always check your gun out the day before you go hunting.

Is it fair to say you'll also be displeased with the suggestion every gun that is checked out is equipped with a GPS chip and coded information on intended use and expected date of return to the armoury? That by the way is the only thing I can see that will have the greatest impact on sudden rampage killings with firearms like the latest one in Alberta. I suppose GPS equipped guns could be stored at home if there was a system for owners to call into before using or transporting them somewhere off property. Of course this wouldn't prevent someone from from suddenly deciding to use their gun to commit murder or murder-suicide at home.

Well I'd like to put a GPS chip behind your left ear so I could stay a safe distance from you, but in civilized society we don't do that, do we? I don't belong to any shooting clubs ect., but I make a point of filling my freezer every fall with tasty local animals, and I don't think you have any knowledge or authority to decide how I will manage the guns I use to do this. This is where the whole gun registry went sideways. It was promoted by an evangelical politician (Alan Rock)looking to score big in his bid for Liberal Leadership. All that legislation was written with no consultation with gun owners or their organized counterparts. You lost the trust and sympathy of gun owners with this clumsy attempt at control. Now we are on edge and suspicious. Once Harper ends this registry, good luck ever getting us to co-operate again.

[NWRS]

Knives will rarely if ever be used in the way guns are in sudden rampage murder-suicide shootings. The problem I have with just throwing up our hands and saying there's nothing we can do to prevent the sudden enraged insane use of firearms is that the state and elected representatives usually DO try to do something. Usually they pretend they've dealt with it by deflecting the issue into one of crime and then claim they're cracking down on that instead.

The longer there are politicians and governments who try to treat insanity as a crime the more the systems we use to deal with both crime and mental health will worsen.

I'm certainly not a big fan of state intrusion into my life but I'm also not averse to verifying my responsibility to society. Recall I have digital cameras and a GPS enabled black box that the state uses to verify my activities when I'm utilizing a valuable common property resource. I had the same willies you'd normally expect when I first had to submit to this sort of oversight but the alternative was to completely lose all opportunity to keep doing something I really like doing.

I can say now after a few years of it that it's no where near as scary or as intrusive as I imagined it would be.

The trick to implementing gun control is to make the gun owners and the gun industry responsible for coming up with a way to better control their use.

So, you're not as concerned about people being murdered so long as it isn't being done by firearm? I'm sure you know that the number of stabbings is on the rise and recently the number of deaths associated has surpassed shooting deaths. It just isn't logical to look at it that way, and just because knives are a close range weapon doesn't mean that perfectly innocent people aren't stabbed to death. Do you believe that flying is more dangerous than driving simply because when a passenger jet crashes many people are killed all at once even though many more people are killed on our roads, just not all at once? That isn't logical.

You want to put all firearms in a central location, do you want to put breathalyzers in every car? More people are killed or hurt by drinking and driving every year than by firearm, how are you going to prevent knifing, or beatings, you can't put our hands in a lock up. How about rope? You know I'm sure that fewer people are shooting themselves while more people are now hanging themselves and the suicide rate hasn't really changed.

You are entitled to your beliefs, but at least be honest about them, the facts, and the logic is irrefutable, you for some reason think that a person shot to death is more of a problem than a person stabbed to death. You don't like guns, for whatever reason, just admit it, admit that it is about the gun, that what you are against. Not so much the murders, but how they are committed, that of course makes no sense, but again you can have your own opinions, and they can be, and are, wrong.

You want social engineering, it would be nice if you just said so.

[Bryan]

Requiring arms to be stored at an armoury definitely would have gone a long way towards preventing these shootings.

That is the dumbest suggestion I've heard on this board in a long time.

Hunters and Farmers having to use a central armoury? How does that work when a coyote is attacking your chickens at 3 am? Drive to the armoury in town, hope someone is there, check out the gun, drive back to the farm and hope there are any chickens left?

[Wild Bill]

That is the dumbest suggestion I've heard on this board in a long time.

Hunters and Farmers having to use a central armoury? How does that work when a coyote is attacking your chickens at 3 am? Drive to the armoury in town, hope someone is there, check out the gun, drive back to the farm and hope there are any chickens left?

Good thing the Liberals are not still in power, Bryan. They would be putting forth a Bill calling for all coyotes to be registered!

Perhaps they could be fitted with GPS ankle bracelets.

[eyeball]

...do you want to put breathalyzers in every car?

Actually I do, yes.

You want social engineering, it would be nice if you just said so.

I want social engineering. Are you saying you don't want governments to actually do any governing?

In any case it's moral engineering that you should really be concerned about.

[eyeball]

That is the dumbest suggestion I've heard on this board in a long time.

Hunters and Farmers having to use a central armoury? How does that work when a coyote is attacking your chickens at 3 am? Drive to the armoury in town, hope someone is there, check out the gun, drive back to the farm and hope there are any chickens left?

As I've said in other threads on the subject people who clearly need a gun for commercial reasons i.e. from farmers to biologists studying polar bears, could get a special permit. For Joe public with an empty freezer and a few chickens in the yard I'd say build a better coop and check your guns in and out when you go hunting.

[eyeball]

Does anyone have any constructive suggestions on how to prevent gun use by the mentally ill? Please note I didn't say eliminate, just prevent. Completely eliminating guns is obviously impossible.

If society is expected to simply accept that there is absolutely nothing to be done about the death and injury that can happen when a person goes insane with a gun I wish the politicians would just come out and say so. I'm really quite neutral about guns per se but we live in a culture and society where gun violence is glorified and where crime and mental illness all too often become conflated terms in the wake of a tragedy.

This seems really counter-productive when 1 in 4 - 5 Canadians will suffer a mental illness in their lifetime and where health experts are also warning about a coming epidemic of dementia, and we have anywhere from 7 to 11 million barely controlled guns in our possession.

Edited December 24, 2011 by eyeball

[Hydraboss]

So we finally know where the problem lies...

It's not guns. It's fucking crazy people.

Why the hell did it take you so long to just say that? Solution: microchip nutcases, bipolars, manic depressives, ADHDs, schitzoids, dementias, etc. Insist that every single Canadian get a psych evaluation each and every year, and register the ones that show anything abnormal.

[eyeball]

Another way to prevent people from suddenly deciding to go postal with weapons stored at home comes to mind. A gun storage unit could require the actions of two people to open. In addition to the sudden enraged and psychotic shooters this could also prevent a lot of domestic gun killings and murder suicides.

"Honey, I want to clean the guns okay?"

"You mean right now while I've got this moose steak on my black-eye"?

Edited December 26, 2011 by eyeball

[Rick]

So we finally know where the problem lies...

It's not guns. It's fucking crazy people.

Why the hell did it take you so long to just say that? Solution: microchip nutcases, bipolars, manic depressives, ADHDs, schitzoids, dementias, etc. Insist that every single Canadian get a psych evaluation each and every year, and register the ones that show anything abnormal.

I'm sure it's already on Harper's list of recommendations to be made to protect us under the guise of homeland security

[Jack Weber]

I'm sure it's already on Harper's list of recommendations to be made to protect us under the guise of homeland security

Well,it would be the logical conclusion of "Slasher" Jimmy's plan during his Ontario Premiership run almost a decade ago...

Jail the "homeless" (see mentally ill) on compassionate grounds...Probably why we need more jails!

[Rick]

Well,it would be the logical conclusion of "Slasher" Jimmy's plan during his Ontario Premiership run almost a decade ago...

Jail the "homeless" (see mentally ill) on compassionate grounds...Probably why we need more jails!

Someone else who remembers.... good.

[eyeball]

So we finally know where the problem lies...

It's not guns. It's fucking crazy people. Why the hell did it take you so long to just say that?

Its the mix of the two actually and I've been saying this for several months if not a few years.

Solution: microchip nutcases, bipolars, manic depressives, ADHDs, schitzoids, dementias, etc. Insist that every single Canadian get a psych evaluation each and every year, and register the ones that show anything abnormal.

This nicely captures the typical adversity to any sort of gun control whatsoever.

Notice I said chip the guns and not the people? When I'm monitored to ensure compliance with fishing regulations they microchip the boat not me.

If a 'chipped' boat fishes outside the rules the authorities can act and save some fish from being over-harvested.

If a chipped gun suddenly moves outside it's registered armoury or location without the owner having hailed in his intentions police could be notified and move to locate the gun and perhaps save some lives.

What's the deal I thought gun owners were responsible law abiding people who expect people to co-operate with the government when it comes to security and safety. Everyone but gun owners it seems, what's up with that?

Edited December 25, 2011 by eyeball

[Mascotal]

It prevents crime in the minds and hearts of those who endorse it. Other then that, no.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Mascotal

[cybercoma]

It reduces the number of suicides and domestic violence incidence by firearms... well, if you believe the numbers anyway. For Conservatives, ideology trumps data.

[huh]

It reduces the number of suicides and domestic violence incidence by firearms... well, if you believe the numbers anyway. For Conservatives, ideology trumps data.

Does it reduce the total number of suicides or domestic violence?

The answer is no. For liberals ideology trumps reality and honesty.

[eyeball]

Does it reduce the total number of suicides or domestic violence?

The answer is no. For liberals ideology trumps reality and honesty.

I agree. You need actual gun control if you expect to reduce these in any meaningful way.

[huh]

I agree. You need actual gun control if you expect to reduce these in any meaningful way.

That would be true if you could prove that those murders wouldn't happen if there were no guns, which you can't, or if guns were used in most murders, which they aren't, or if illegally obtained guns, responsible for most murders and mostly from the US, would disappear, which they wouldn't.

When you multiply all of those factors together you end up with a reality.

That being placing controls upon the vast majority of gun owners who are no threat to anyone will at best have a tiny impact on violence in this country, there are many other places where we could spend our time and effort and more effectively improve the lives of Canadians.

The RCMP just sent out a bunch of confiscation letters to owners of a semi auto .22 caliber rifle changing it's status from a non restricted to a prohibited rifle, that's a two level jump, the .22 is about the weakest bullet there is, and this rifle has never been used in a crime that i know of, but hey, it looks a bit like a military variant so it's got to be tightly controlled.

Well, that proves that the registry is used for confiscation, and no it isn't the first time, and just furthers the point that gun control is silly, every deer rifle in the country, millions of them, are more dangerous than this newly prohibited rifle, statistically, my fists are more dangerous than the deer rifles or this 'scary gun' that fires a puny cartridge and hasn't been used to harm anyone. So punish gun owners for owning a gun that might scare people who don't know anything about guns, who don't want to learn, and presume that every gun owner is a murderer waiting to happen even though every statistic available proves this presumption false, that's gun control.

It's funny how the left is generally for gun control or outright banning while ignoring all of the easily accessible data out there and at the same time claiming that the right wing, and generally pro gun people, are dumb rednecks who hate science.

I personally think that since we can't control people we should punish them severely when they use any weapon to harm others, but no doubt most of those same people trying to take guns away from overwhelmingly non violent people are ok with a guy getting a 2 year sentence for bludgeoning a completely innocent person with a 2x4 because his father or grandfather had it rough. Which is pretty interesting considering that in 2009 more people were beaten to death than shot with a handgun, the gun banners holy grail, of the 179 gun murders than year, only in 24 was something other than a handgun or an illegally modified long gun was used, and overall, two thirds of the weapons were not registered. So being generous, maybe half of those 24 were registered guns. So control guns, well, rounding down, there are about 7 million in the country, what percentage of 12 is 7 million,.00017%, yea, better get those guns.

That's a broken ideology, an indefensible ideology.

PSST, there are likely many more than 7 million guns in the country.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal01-eng.htm

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/101026/dq101026a-eng.htm

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/GunsinCanada.htm

Edited January 9, 2012 by huh

[eyeball]

It's funny how the left is generally for gun control or outright banning while ignoring all of the easily accessible data out there and at the same time claiming that the right wing, and generally pro gun people, are dumb rednecks who hate science.

I'd say it's the left and the mentally ill you folks hate the most.

If I ever needed a reason to own a gun for defence, that might be it.

[jbg]

It reduces the number of suicides and domestic violence incidence by firearms... well, if you believe the numbers anyway. For Conservatives, ideology trumps data.

Do most suicidal people register their guns before blowing their brains out?

[Guest Derek L]

Do most suicidal people register their guns before blowing their brains out?

Currently all handguns and “black rifles” (Restricted class) and rifles & shotguns (Non-restricted) have to be registered prior to taking possession of said firearm……To own and posses Non-restricted firearms one needs a PAL or Possession & Acquisition licence and Restricted firearms requires a RPAL, in addition, to own Restricted firearms, one has to be a member of a registered gun club and to transport said firearms, one is required to also have a ATT or Authorization to transport.

What is being done away with is the requirement to register non restricted firearms. One will still need a PAL to own or purchase them, and will still be required to conform with storage and safety laws and nothing will be changed for restricted firearms (Yet)

Those in favour of the LGR have built a strawman as to it’s usefulness. I have my RPAL, belong to a club, have a ATT and meet all the requirements for safe storage. I fail to see how by the government having a list of the hunting rifles, shotguns and rimfire rifles in my home, will reduce the risk of me beating/killing my wife and children or shooting myself