Shipbuilding contracts

[Smallc]

That’s Victoria ship……and all the refits aren’t concurrent

Didn't know the first, knew the second.

[Guest Derek L]

Didn't know the first, knew the second.

No prob I lived in the PMQs and the Old Wardroom which were across the street from Vic-Ship.

Here's a good pic of the harbour:

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/mspa_images/marpac_images/base-units_images/et2003-0001-20c.jpg

The Vic-Ship dry-dock is top center and Dockyard is below it on the base, across the harbour (it's dry in this pic) between the two large jettys

[Guest Derek L]

Here's a better pic:

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_images/MARPAC_images/gallery_images/large/ET2003-0005-12c.jpg

Vic-ship's drydock starts just ahead of the bow on the red hulled freighter....Dockyard is just aft and over of the two 330s & 280.

[Smallc]

Do you think with these three facilities, that they may be able to build a JSS and the JGD at the same time?

http://www.seaspan.com/shipyards/index.php

[Smallc]

I was just thinking about what I said about the Seaspan contract getting bigger. I think I was wrong. The current contracts only spend $3.8B. That means that there is more than $4B (I'm guessing it must be in today's $) left for 5 smaller icebreakers (or 3 large ones), 2 - 4 OPVs, and 10 - 12 multi task vessels.

[Guest Derek L]

Do you think with these three facilities, that they may be able to build a JSS and the JGD at the same time?

http://www.seaspan.com/shipyards/index.php

Well it really is only two sites, the Vancouver dry-dock & shipyard are one in the same…….

That said, no. The JSS and likely the JGD, due to their size will likely be built in separate “blocks” then assembled together on land/slipways. Vancouver as opposed to Victoria has the space to build the large sections (also access to the railroad for larger sections/components assembled elsewhere) . The smaller ships built in Victoria would likely be built keel up in the graving dock, since there are no longer slipways in Victoria (These were redeveloped after the Yarrow yard closed in the early 90s).

I suppose it really depends on the final design and size of the JGD, but with it’s expected size, I’d think Victoria is out.

Though by far the largest the JSS (and if they built a LHD/LPD) are not necessarily the most complex to build and design……..That by far will be the new frigates/destroyers………Imagine a large warehouse (JSS) and a multi level office building with hundreds of different rooms (FFH/DDG)………All that is required is the actual space to build them………

Like I said, it will depend on how complex the JGD turns out to be, I’d guess it being more so than the JSS.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

I was just thinking about what I said about the Seaspan contract getting bigger. I think I was wrong. The current contracts only spend $3.8B. That means that there is more than $4B (I'm guessing it must be in today's $) left for 5 smaller icebreakers (or 3 large ones), 2 - 4 OPVs, and 10 - 12 multi task vessels.

Again, I assume, those smaller vessels will go to the losers as mentioned in the news reporting……Though the dollar figure seems low, the actual ships are cheap, it’s what you put in and on them that is expensive.

[Smallc]

Again, I assume, those smaller vessels will go to the losers as mentioned in the news reporting……Though the dollar figure seems low, the actual ships are cheap, it’s what you put in and on them that is expensive.

I'm going by the actual project costs. That said, the ships I mentioned are all over 1000 tons. This plan covers all ships in that range. The announced projects for Seaspan, up to now, A ) only last until 2018, and B ) only come to $3.8 - 3.9B (cost overruns are not taken out of the $8B pie. Some of these other vessels (the icebreakers) will be between $500 and 700M.

[Guest Derek L]

Not sure if the link will work, but try the google map here:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=cfb+esquimalt&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1024&bih=653&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

If you look across the harbour at Vic ship you can see the dry-dock is flooded, but alongside the jetty, one of the 330s, likely (depending the age of the pic) undergoing FELEX……….Now if you go back towards the base, you’ll see two 330s alongside the jetty (The large building aft in the fleet maintenance facility), now the large vessel you see near the 330s is HMCS Protecteur….now scroll down and slightly to your left and you’ll see a unique vessel in the dry-dock at Dockyard.

[Guest Derek L]

I'm going by the actual project costs. That said, the ships I mentioned are all over 1000 tons. This plan covers all ships in that range. The announced projects for Seaspan, up to now, A ) only last until 2018, and B ) only come to $3.8 - 3.9B (cost overruns are not taken out of the $8B pie. Some of these other vessels (the icebreakers) will be between $500 and 700M.

To be honest, I don’t really know the costing on the Coast Guard (smaller) vessels……..Perhaps they’ll be parceled out individually.

[Smallc]

Now it works

[Smallc]

To be honest, I don’t really know the costing on the Coast Guard (smaller) vessels……..Perhaps they’ll be parceled out individually.

They could be. The current projects (the OOSV and OFSV) are just under $200M and $300M, respectively. The JGD is just under $800M. I would expect we'll get 4 smaller icebreakers (probably medium), 2 - 3 offshore patrol vessels (the 9 mid shore patrol vessels being built are replacing 8 vessels, and I'm guessing that means the 6 current mid shore patrol vessels, and 2 offshore patrol vessels), and 10 multi task vessels of two different sizes with very light ice capability. To keep current capability, we'll need one more icebreaker than we seem to be allowing for, so I'm not sure what's happening there...unless the medium icebreakers will be less than I'm assuming.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Smallc

[Guest Derek L]

Here's Vancouver Shipyard:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=vancouver+shipyard&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1504l6217l0l6471l18l18l0l0l0l0l255l2485l5.11.2l18l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1024&bih=653&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

If you scroll up, you'll see a fishing boat and a tug on the slipways.

You’ll also notice a lot of tug boats and barges…….SEASPAN’s other business…….

fixed link

Edited October 20, 2011 by Derek L

[Smallc]

You appear to have Esquimalt again.

BTW, the JGD will be around 140M long and 10000 tons. For comparison, the AOPS is 98M long, and 7000 tons. The Halifax class is 137M long and just under 5000 tons.

[Smallc]

.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Smallc

[fellowtraveller]

The expansion of ships, facilities and capability in the Arctic is being done with the belief that global warming will be making the Arctic more accessible.

A more important reason is to greatly increase Canadian visibility and capability in Arctic regions, or the many claimants to the resources in what we consider our terrotory may decide to take it away.

[Guest Derek L]

They could be. The current projects (the OOSV and OFSV) are just under $200M and $300M, respectively. The JGD is just under $800M. I would expect we'll get 4 smaller icebreakers (probably medium), 2 - 3 offshore patrol vessels (the 9 mid shore patrol vessels being built are replacing 8 vessels, and I'm guessing that means the 6 current mid shore patrol vessels, and 2 offshore patrol vessels), and 10 multi task vessels of two different sizes with very light ice capability. To keep current capability, we'll need one more icebreaker than we seem to be allowing for, so I'm not sure what's happening there...unless the medium icebreakers will be less than I'm assuming.

I guess the devil will be in the details........Perhaps costing future vessels is not appropriate yet until the shipyards get into the full swing, and we’d hopefully realize savings to due increased efficiency

[Guest Derek L]

You appear to have Esquimalt again.

BTW, the JGD will be around 140M long and 10000 tons. For comparison, the AOPS is 98M long, and 7000 tons. The Halifax class is 137M long and just under 5000 tons.

Again, comparing the 330s to AOPS or the JGD is not really apt....they'll all fit into the current dry docks

[Smallc]

Again, comparing the 330s to AOPS or the JGD is not really apt....they'll all fit into the current dry docks

I'm not sure I get you.

[Guest Derek L]

I'm not sure I get you.

The internal spaces is (and will be) vastly different.

[Smallc]

The internal spaces is (and will be) vastly different.

Yes, I see. The widths of the ship will also be different.

[Guest Derek L]

Yes, I see. The widths of the ship will also be different.

None the less, glad the first step has finally been taken………..Though I don’t want jinx the process, I think it’s now uncancellable…….

[Smallc]

None the less, glad the first step has finally been taken………..Though I don’t want jinx the process, I think it’s now uncancellable…….

I don't think it's uncancellable at this point. That point comes around January. The winners have been announced, but they haven't signed anything. That's supposed to happen by January. After than, negotiations on individual projects come, with the AOPS, OOSV, and OFSV starting construction in Summer - Fall 2012.

I guess after that, future governments probably can't reduce the order.

The CCG, should also start getting its first Hero Class vessels any time now.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Smallc

[Guest Derek L]

I don't think it's uncancellable at this point. That point comes around January. The winners have been announced, but they haven't signed anything. That's supposed to happen by January. After than, negotiations on individual projects come, with the AOPS, OOSV, and OFSV starting construction in Summer - Fall 2012.

I guess after that, future governments probably can't reduce the order.

The CCG, should also start getting its first Hero Class vessels any time now.

I doubt the government will reverse it now, what I was referring to was a future government(s)………Granted, the frigate/destroyer replacement, depending on the next few elections could be binned or reduced……..even that, I doubt though……….I’ve yet to see the same associated uproar over the cost, as was the case with JSF, from the peanut gallery though

Edited October 20, 2011 by Derek L

[Smallc]

I doubt that the CSC order would ever be reduced. If anything, the ships themselves could be more capable than any of us expect, given that (despite the $25B combat package) they are allowing up to $26B for just acquisition. Do you know what that buys? Crazy.