The Truth About Solyndra

[waldo]

You gota love it when the flat-earth, no growth alarmists contribute to a problem, and then blame that problem on somebody else.

clearly, ShadyPractices prefer wiki over linked Wall Street Journal reference and a direct quote from Exxon's chairman and chief executive

apparently, the following wasn't enough for you to 'man-up' and rescind your pubescent, juvenile liar labeling - was it?

in your pubescent, juvenile best, you are forever trotting out charges of lying - calling other MLW members liars. I'd suggest you cool your accusatory jets:

Wall Street Journal

:

Exxon Mobil Corp. says it believes that, by 2030, hybrid gasoline-and-electric cars and light trucks will account for nearly 30% of new-vehicle sales in the U.S. and Canada. That surge is part of a broader shift toward fuel efficiency that Exxon thinks will cause fuel consumption by North American cars and light trucks to peak around 2020 -- and then start to fall.

"

For that reason, we wouldn't build a grassroots refinery" in the U.S., Rex Tillerson, Exxon's chairman and chief executive, said in a recent interview. Exxon has continued to expand the capacity of its existing refineries. But building a new refinery from scratch, Exxon believes, would be bad for long-term business

say what! No new refineries cause it would be bad for the BigOil bottom line...

... notwithstanding the regulatory framework most certainly didn't preclude BigOil from perusing the equivalency of 23 new refineries being built, alternatively in the form of upgrades/expansion to existing refineries... a point most clearly articulated by the BigOil chairman and chief executive in the aforementioned WSJ Journal article/link.

...

increased capacity through expansion of existing plants

?

Moreover, since 1985, when refinery capacity hit a low of 14.7 million barrels per day, we've seen over three million barrels of capacity added, or the equivalent to 23 average modern day facilities. A stark contrast to the misleading tidbit about having no new refineries built since the 1970's.

So while we haven't seen new refineries open in new locations, we have virtually added the capacity of 23 of today's average size facilities

.

[jbg]

You gota love it when the flat-earth, no growth alarmists contribute to a problem, and then blame that problem on somebody else.

Especially when promoting wind power destroys wilderness for little or no gain (link).

[Shady]

Especially when promoting wind power destroys wilderness for little or no gain (link).

Exactly. These are the same useful idiots that are currently protesting the proposed pipeline from Canada to the United States, which are the same people that protest against new refinery construction, and power plant construction.

I'm suprised waldo isn't at the pipeline protest today!

[lukin]

Joe Biden on Solyndra.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tfsxCeC9m0

Edited October 1, 2011 by lukin

[punked]

Exactly. These are the same useful idiots that are currently protesting the proposed pipeline from Canada to the United States, which are the same people that protest against new refinery construction, and power plant construction.

I'm suprised waldo isn't at the pipeline protest today!

Yah I just love when we can ship Canadians un refined oil to the US so they make Gas and Plastics to of it and ship it back here making a profit. That is just great for Canada Shady.

[Shady]

Yah I just love when we can ship Canadians un refined oil to the US so they make Gas and Plastics to of it and ship it back here making a profit. That is just great for Canada Shady.

Oh I know. We should also destroy all of the roads that lead into America too. Because they use them to transport goods to us to sell for a profit as well.

Are people seriously this economically ignorant?

/facepalm

[Bonam]

Yah I just love when we can ship Canadians un refined oil to the US so they make Gas and Plastics to of it and ship it back here making a profit. That is just great for Canada Shady.

If you don't like it, perhaps you should petition for the government to allow us to build some new refineries here, so we can make the profit from it ourselves?

[punked]

If you don't like it, perhaps you should petition for the government to allow us to build some new refineries here, so we can make the profit from it ourselves?

The government does allow new refineries to be built in Canada. I feel like you have bought into a right wing lie that oil companies don't build oil refineries because the government does not let them. That is not why at all. Why would oil companies build refineries when our terrible government would rather export our raw oil to refineries in the south where they can give our jobs to people in Texas, and other southern states?

In fact Irving and BP just canceled a new refinery project two years ago.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2009/07/24/nb-irving-refinery-1012.html

Educate yourself so you don't end up looking misinformed. Just because your right wing friends like Shady tell you something doesn't mean it is true.

[TimG]

The government does allow new refineries to be built in Canada. I feel like you have bought into a right wing lie that oil companies don't build oil refineries because the government does not let them.

And they are building refineries to process the oil sands bitimen:

http://www.northwestupgrading.com/

But is has taken years to get the approvals and has faced opposition from the usual environmental nitwits.

The chances of building enough refinery capacity to process the bitumen is next to zero.

And you still need pipelines to ship refined gasoline to market.

As it stands, the US has a sweet deal because it gets to buy oil sands oil at $20 less that the world price because we can't get it to market. A piece of that $20 would go to the Alberta government as price dependent royality payments. So if you want to see Canadian resources sold for cheap to Americans yuo should oppose the pipeline. If you want to see Canada maximize the value it can get from the resources you should be supporting the pipeline to the US and the pipeline to the BC coast.

Don't pretend you give a damn about maximizing the value of the resource as long as you oppose those pipelines. The 'we should process it ourselves' meme is nothing but a hollow talking point by people who want to shut down the oil sands.

Edited October 1, 2011 by TimG

[punked]

And they are building refineries to process the oil sands bitimen:

http://www.northwestupgrading.com/

But is has taken years to get the approvals and has faced opposition from the usual environmental nitwits.

The chances of building enough refinery capacity to process the bitumen is next to zero.

And you still need pipelines to ship refined gasoline to market.

As it stands, the US has a sweet deal because it gets to buy oil sands oil at $20 less that the world price because we can't get it to market. A piece of that $20 would go to the Alberta government as price dependent royality payments. So if you want to see Canadian resources sold for cheap to Americans yuo should oppose the pipeline. If you want to see Canada maximize the value it can get from the resources you should be supporting the pipeline to the US and the pipeline to the BC coast.

Don't pretend you give a damn about maximizing the value of the resource as long as you oppose those pipelines. The 'we should process it ourselves' meme is nothing but a hollow talking point by people who want to shut down the oil sands.

Don't tell me what my opinions are. I think this would easier for you if it was about the environment then you would dismiss everything I have to say. To bad for you, you don't get to frame my beliefs. I support a pipe line to our west coast and our East coast. I support helping fit Canadian refineries to process our oil, and telling the oil companies if they want Canadian oil they can come here and bring good jobs with them. I know it would save the oil companies a whole bunch of money if they can take a pipeline to the US where refineries are because they have already tapped all their resources but I am not about helping the oil companies out. They want our oil, and I promise you they will get it and refine it, the question is does Canada want to get rich from our sources or do we want let another country get the wealth. I know what you are for.

[TimG]

I support a pipe line to our west coast and our East coast. I support helping fit Canadian refineries to process our oil, and telling the oil companies if they want Canadian oil they can come here and bring good jobs with them.

Supporting the west coast pipeline makes sense. East coast pipeline: not so much. It is unlikely that private sector investors would consider supporting it and the government has no business getting involved.

In any case, they are already building refining capacity in the oil sands. It can only be built so fast - especially with all of the environmentalists that try to shutdown any development. Then you have the question of getting the refined product to market - you still need pipelines for that.

[punked]

Supporting the west coast pipeline makes sense. East coast pipeline: not so much. It is unlikely that private sector investors would consider supporting it and the government has no business getting involved.

In any case, they are already building refining capacity in the oil sands. It can only be built so fast - especially with all of the environmentalists that try to shutdown any development. Then you have the question of getting the refined product to market - you still need pipelines for that.

Yah but this pipeline is the type of pipeline that ships refined petrol products so stop pretending it is. I am against shipping our jobs down the pipeline.

[Shady]

Yah but this pipeline is the type of pipeline that ships refined petrol products so stop pretending it is. I am against shipping our jobs down the pipeline.

If you're saying we should increase Canada's refining capacity, I completely agree.

[TimG]

Yah but this pipeline is the type of pipeline that ships refined petrol products so stop pretending it is. I am against shipping our jobs down the pipeline.

So are you ok with all of the extra CO2 emissions that come with refining in Canada? Or do you think the CO2 obsession is more important than jobs?

[Shady]

So are you ok with all of the extra CO2 emissions that come with refining in Canada? Or do you think the CO2 obsession is more important than jobs?

Exactly. That's why they're complete hypocrites. They care more about emission than they do Canadian jobs and Canadian gas prices. All they do is pay lip service to it as an excuse to talk down projects such as this pipeline. Knowing full well that if you then suggest increasing our refining capacity, they'd never go for it. It's pretty pathetic.

[Shady]

I am against shipping our jobs down the pipeline.

Which jobs are being shipped down?

[jbg]

East coast pipeline: not so much.

Wasn't an East Coast Pipeline scandal what put Dief in over St. Laurent?

[punked]

Exactly. That's why they're complete hypocrites. They care more about emission than they do Canadian jobs and Canadian gas prices. All they do is pay lip service to it as an excuse to talk down projects such as this pipeline. Knowing full well that if you then suggest increasing our refining capacity, they'd never go for it. It's pretty pathetic.

Keep having an argument we aren't having please. Just because you want to make this about Environmentalist vs. Economic Expansion doesn't mean it is. What is so hard for you to wrap your head around? There are Canadians who would rather have those refinery jobs in Canada employing thousands of people in well paying jobs so they can expand our economy. Canada is the only first world nation with a third world economy, at some point we need to demand we keep our jobs. You want to send them down a pipe. It is funny how people against immigration can be so for exporting our resources out of our country so another country can benefit from them. What a dumb argument.

[Wild Bill]

Keep having an argument we aren't having please. Just because you want to make this about Environmentalist vs. Economic Expansion doesn't mean it is. What is so hard for you to wrap your head around? There are Canadians who would rather have those refinery jobs in Canada employing thousands of people in well paying jobs so they can expand our economy. Canada is the only first world nation with a third world economy, at some point we need to demand we keep our jobs. You want to send them down a pipe. It is funny how people against immigration can be so for exporting our resources out of our country so another country can benefit from them. What a dumb argument.

I agree with you this time, punked! At least as far as your economic argument. I think perhaps you may not realize that Shady isn't disagreeing with your economic argument either. If anything he agrees with you! He's saying that some are protesting "both ends against the middle", being in favour of refineries at home for the jobs at this point in the process but that we'd see the same people protesting the actual BUILDING of any refinery for environmental reasons!

[punked]

I agree with you this time, punked! At least as far as your economic argument. I think perhaps you may not realize that Shady isn't disagreeing with your economic argument either. If anything he agrees with you! He's saying that some are protesting "both ends against the middle", being in favour of refineries at home for the jobs at this point in the process but that we'd see the same people protesting the actual BUILDING of any refinery for environmental reasons!

I would agree there are people out there who would do that. I am not one of them. If they don't build refineries here they will ship our oil somewhere else to get the petrol out of it. Build them here, bring the jobs here, and stop shipping our jobs down a pipeline. If we build the pipeline there will never be a reason to process the oil here. It is bad policy.

[TimG]

I would agree there are people out there who would do that. I am not one of them. If they don't build refineries here they will ship our oil somewhere else to get the petrol out of it.

So just to be clear: you believe that the CO2 emissions from these refineries is a non-issue and that they should be built because jobs are more important than CO2 reductions? Edited October 2, 2011 by TimG

[Shady]

Which jobs are being shipped down?

I'll ask again. Which jobs are being shipped down because of this punked?

[punked]

So just to be clear: you believe that the CO2 emissions from these refineries is a non-issue and that they should be built because jobs are more important than CO2 reductions?

I believer the CO2 is going to either be emitted here in or in Texas either way it is going into the air. Better it happen here then there at least then we can have those refining and production jobs.

[punked]

I'll ask again. Which jobs are being shipped down because of this punked?

Shady I have no time to explain the refining process to you now. However if you want to know all the jobs that go with turning oil products into refined petrol and plastics I think How its made has a few episodes you can watch. That should be at your level.

[TimG]

I believer the CO2 is going to either be emitted here in or in Texas either way it is going into the air. Better it happen here then there at least then we can have those refining and production jobs.

Ok. You are at least consistent in your opinions.

The trouble is it is very hard to justify building refining capacity in Alberta because of the distance from market. Especially since those refineries in Houston would be competiting with oil sands refineries and are closer to the markets/have existing pipelines. There is also very high likelyhood that oil sands refinery would be subject to punative duties because this 'CO2 issue' if there is no 'American Jobs' angle to use.

China has no interest in refined output from the oil sands. Hell, they would rather put the raw bitumen in rail cars and ship it like coal. We could build the capacity but they would not buy it because they can get raw output from elsewhere.

If short, I think believing that all of oil sands output can be refined in Canada is like believing in unicorns and faires. It may make you feel good but it is hardly a basis for a sane economic policy.

The most pragmantic way forward is to get those pipelines built and support projects like the northwest upgrader. If it succeeds you will likely see more refining capacity built over time. It should not be a question of building refining vs. pipelines. We can do both.

Edited October 2, 2011 by TimG