Wilber Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 But it's not that simple, it's just ANOTHER cost on top of so many others in so many parts of our lives. From fuel to booze to licensing your pets. How about the fact that this document costs $225 to produce? How does that make any sense, whatsoever? I can buy a used laptop for that. It reminds me of the cellular companies selling SIM cards for $25, when they cost perhaps fifty cents to produce - but at least the cellular company is making a profit! The government just doesn't care enough to procure anything for a normal price. How do you know government isn't making a profit on passports? It wouldn't be their only cash cow. Government makes a pretty good buck out of the travel industry in general. Give it to the Auditor General and find out what's what. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
TimG Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) Or maybe we have a lousy business model. Do you always assume the cost is justified when you pay too much for something?Who says they are too low? Your reference points are based on countries where people are paying too little for the services they receive. Australians pay up to $340 for theirs. Canadians need documents to travel. Often they need documents so they can make a living an pay taxes. It is governments job to provide them. They are not doing you a favour.So? Canadians need gas to get to work but that is taxed. The government has no obligation to provide cheap passports. Edited September 19, 2011 by TimG Quote
Bob Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 How do you know government isn't making a profit on passports? It wouldn't be their only cash cow. Government makes a pretty good buck out of the travel industry in general. Give it to the Auditor General and find out what's what. What I do know is that it's a ridiculous price to pay for a passport. You can buy much more complex technology for $225 (a used laptop, high-quality speakers, a graphic card, etc), so we're being ripped off. It's just another tsx grab on top of a mountain of tax grabs. And here we are, with a "conservative" government that many Canadians actually describe as "right-wing". Shows how far to the left Canada has fallen... Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
Wilber Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 Who says they are too low? Your reference points are based on countries where people are paying too little for the services they receive. Australians pay up to $340 for theirs. Your assumption that those countries subsidize their passports is no more valid than my assertion that we may be paying too much. Maybe Australia makes money off theirs as well. Is it an essential service or a tax? So? Canadians need gas to get to work but that is taxed. The government has no obligation to provide cheap passports. They have an obligation to provide travel documents, if they are making a profit off them, that should be made public knowledge. Like I said, give it to the auditor general. I will accept the finding. Will you? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
fellowtraveller Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 They have an obligation to provide travel documents, if they are making a profit off them, that should be made public knowledge. Like I said, give it to the auditor general. I will accept the finding. Will you? Sure, and if the AG notes that Passport Canada is bloated with overpaid bureaucracy/high costs and should be run like a business to generate profit/provide efficient cost effective service to Canadians- I will accept that finding if it is accompanied by appropriate remedies. Will you? Quote The government should do something.
Smallc Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 Passport Canada is self sustaining. I would imagine it is run like a business....that has to do complex security and citizenship checks on millions of people. Quote
Wilber Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 Sure, and if the AG notes that Passport Canada is bloated with overpaid bureaucracy/high costs and should be run like a business to generate profit/provide efficient cost effective service to Canadians- I will accept that finding if it is accompanied by appropriate remedies. Will you? No, it should not be run to generate a profit. It is an essential service and has no competition. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) No, it should not be run to generate a profit. It is an essential service and has no competition. It isn't run to generate a profit. It's run so that it breaks even. Why should it be any different? Contrary to your opinion it isn't an essential service. Edited September 19, 2011 by Smallc Quote
Wilber Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 It isn't run to generate a profit. It's run so that it breaks even. Why should it be any different? Contrary to your opinion it isn't an essential service. Really, where else are you going to get a passport? All travel is not discretionary. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 Really, where else are you going to get a passport? All travel is not discretionary. Travel, generally isn't necessary either. You could have a different job, or go on a different vacation. More importantly, why should I pay for your passport, or someone else for mine? Quote
Wilber Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 Travel, generally isn't necessary either. You could have a different job, or go on a different vacation. More importantly, why should I pay for your passport, or someone else for mine? All right then, lets take every Canadians passport away and see what happens to this country. I'm not saying the service shouldn't brake even. I want to know if it is making a profit because it shouldn't be. Taxing the travel industry is one of governments biggest cash cows. Example Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
TimG Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) Your assumption that those countries subsidize their passports is no more valid than my assertion that we may be paying too much. Maybe Australia makes money off theirs as well. Is it an essential service or a tax?Maybe they are. So what?They have an obligation to provide travel documents, if they are making a profit off them, that should be made public knowledge. Like I said, give it to the auditor general. I will accept the finding. Will you?I really don't care if they are 'making a profit' since that means lower taxes elsewhere in the system. Nor do I think it is a useful use of the AG's time to determine whether passports are profit making.That said, if the cost of the passport was so high that it was a large fraction of the cost of trip out of the country then I would likely think it has gone to far and complain like you are now. Just like I would complain if the cost of gas was jacked up to $2/liter. So at some level, I do agree that there is a limit to what the government should charge. I just think the 'profit making' question is a red herring. Edited September 19, 2011 by TimG Quote
Wilber Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 I just think the 'profit making' question is a red herring. I think it is the issue. Government should not be making profits on services only it is allowed to provide. Break even yes, profit no. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 I think it is the issue. Government should not be making profits on services only it is allowed to provide. Break even yes, profit no. Well, they aren't making a profit. Passport Canada is self sustaining. Nothing less, and nothing more. Quote
Wilber Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 Well, they aren't making a profit. Passport Canada is self sustaining. Nothing less, and nothing more. How do you know? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Smallc Posted September 19, 2011 Report Posted September 19, 2011 How do you know? Passport Canada’s regular operations are self-funded though passport sales, but it does get occasional government fund- ing, such as in 2007-2008, when the agency received $55-million from Treasury Board to address the anticipated surge in appli- cations, that year alone the agency added more than 700 employees to its workforce. In other words, at times, it actually doesn't make enough money!!! Oh, and here we see that the AG has already looked at it, as well as private sector auditors: http://www.leadershipawards.ca/SiteCollectionDocuments/Hill_Times_23Nov09.pdf Quote
Wilber Posted September 20, 2011 Report Posted September 20, 2011 Fair enough. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
WWWTT Posted September 20, 2011 Report Posted September 20, 2011 Welcome to Harpers' Canada! WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
dre Posted September 20, 2011 Report Posted September 20, 2011 Meh, hardly a relevant expense. $225 or whatever every 5 years? Big deal. $3.75 a month for a document that allows you to travel anywhere in the world is hardly expensive. Yeah thats always the argument. Problem is that thing is just one form/fee. I have dozens and dozens of similar expenses and they to add up. For me it feels like death by a thousand small cuts sometimes. The government took 40K from me last year in income taxes, I guess I just figure that money is supposed to fund the operations of the government which should include permits, forms etc. It just never ends. Just paid 4000 for a building permit, and all I get for it is 3 30 minute inspections by a city inspector. I paid almost 40 thousand in fees last time we did a small subdivision. I cant shake the feeling that theres just too much of this stuff in comparison to what I actually DO. Theres no reason that a document thats really just used to prove citizenship and track travel needs to cost 250 dollars. In fact, I think we are going backwards by even requiring such a document to travel back and forth from the US. We should be making it EASIER for people and goods to move around not harder. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted September 20, 2011 Report Posted September 20, 2011 I guess I just figure that money is supposed to fund the operations of the government which should include permits, forms etc. But it doesn't. It's that simple. If you want passports to be 'free' then taxes will have to increase. In fact, I think we are going backwards by even requiring such a document to travel back and forth from the US. We (as in Canada) didn't do that. Quote
Wilber Posted September 20, 2011 Report Posted September 20, 2011 Meh, hardly a relevant expense. $225 or whatever every 5 years? Big deal. $3.75 a month for a document that allows you to travel anywhere in the world is hardly expensive. It's interesting that the cost of a passport will now exceed some airfares to many countries. Minus taxes of course. For that kind of money, it had better be good for ten years. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Bonam Posted September 20, 2011 Report Posted September 20, 2011 Yeah thats always the argument. Problem is that thing is just one form/fee. I have dozens and dozens of similar expenses and they to add up. For me it feels like death by a thousand small cuts sometimes. The government took 40K from me last year in income taxes, I guess I just figure that money is supposed to fund the operations of the government which should include permits, forms etc. It just never ends. Just paid 4000 for a building permit, and all I get for it is 3 30 minute inspections by a city inspector. I paid almost 40 thousand in fees last time we did a small subdivision. I cant shake the feeling that theres just too much of this stuff in comparison to what I actually DO. Income taxes and sales taxes (federal + provincial) predominately pay for big ticket items like health care, education, welfare, OAS, defense, public service unions, etc. If you want to pay less in taxes and fees, government expenses have to be cut (or we have to follow the US path of borrowing half the money that's used). Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I recall you are usually not on the cutting government / social programs side of debates. You pay for what you ask for. Quote
Wilber Posted September 20, 2011 Report Posted September 20, 2011 It's always relevant to ask whether we need the things we are being charged for and whether the fees accurately reflect the cost of providing them. Not to do so is just stupid. Do we really need a $225 passport? $250 if the present consular fee is tacked on. Some poor schmuck who has saved up to take his wife and two kids on a once in a life time trip to Disney World could be looking at $900 in passport fees, an even grand if the consular fee is added. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
fellowtraveller Posted September 20, 2011 Report Posted September 20, 2011 More importantly, why should I pay for your passport, or someone else for mine? Agreed.This reasoning also applies to other non essential services, such as the entertainment produced by the CBC at massive cost to taxpayers. The difference of course it that passports are available from only one source, while entertainment is available from thousands of sources. Why is it that passports are a break even proposition while CBC is a dead loss? Quote The government should do something.
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