Is the canadian left anti-Semitic

[jacee]

Dp

Edited September 20, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

You know, although I wouldn't draw parallels between the circumstance for Aboriginal/First Nations and the "Palestinians", the truth is the "Palestinians" have much more autonomy/sovereignty/independence than the Aboriginals/First Nations. Although I have little sympathy for the perceived "plight" of the Aboriginals/First Nations in Canada (and the USA), the "Palestinians" probably outperform Aboriginals/First Nations on certain barometers (i.e. higher levels of educational attainment and lower rates of drug addiction/alcoholism). Although, to be fair, outperforming Aboriginals/First Nations isn't really that hard to do.

The idea that somehow Canada has the moral high ground on this issue, if you accept the parallels between the situations for Aboriginals/First Nations in Canada and the "Palestinians" in Israel and the territories (and I don't accept that parallel), is quite silly. Israel goes to much greater lengths to accommodate the "Palestinians" than Canada does towards the Aboriginals/First Nations, but of course the circumstances are different.

Canada has no moral high ground. Canadians who protest Israel's treatment of Palestinians often also protest Canada's treatment of Indigenous Peoples. The parallels are well known.

The differences in education and social problems are squarely at Canada's door: Over a century of intentional, systematic destruction of Indigenous religions, governance, cultures, traditional livelihoods, treaties and trade relations, communities and families: Six or more generations of children incarcerated, terrorized, abused beyond belief, and dying en masse in Canada's 'Indian' Residential schools.

When Israel formed after the Jewish holocaust, the Canadian slaughter of Indigenous cultures and children was peaking because the UN was developing the 'Convention on Genocide' and Canada's crimes against Indigenous Peoples risked international exposure. Canada didn't ratify the Convention on Genocide until 2000, four years after the last government run residential school closed.

If the gas chambers were cranking out Jewish death full blast as the allies closed in, as some say, the parallel ramping up was occurring in Canada in the following two decades in residential schools, institutions, foster care/adoption (the 'Sixties Scoop'). Thousands upon thousands of children died, and many more were intentionally separated from family, community and culture. Hundreds of thousands are still finding their way back, and perhaps even more have given up or have no knowledge of where they came from.

No, Canada has no 'high ground' to stand on and many Canadians know and acknowledge that though some are still in denial, it's true.

The corporate greed for unfettered access to the land, government complicity in policy and practices (eg, not keeping records of enrolment/death) Christian religious fervor in converting 'heathens' conjoined into a genocidal stew pot for Indigenous children and families, at its peak during the 'cold war' years, some say with the assistance of former Nazi doctors and 'scientists'. It wasn't random either: Families of traditional leaders were targeted for disruption, separation from community, death, sterilization, incarceration, etc.

No the Palestinians haven't suffered to that extent under Israel ... but is that a point in Israel's favour in the 21st century? Canada's 21st century begins with a court-ordered, UN supervised Truth Commission, now in progress but apparently pretty much hidden from most of us who don't seek out the information.

The argument "Others do it so why pick on us?" just lowers the standards for human behaviour. The Jewish holocaust happened; Does that mean somebody else gets to do it too?

I think Israel should be speaking up LOUDLY about Canada's crimes against Indigenous Peoples ... but they aren't ... possibly because of the existing parallels (tho different in scope) between the occupations?

Edited September 19, 2011 by jacee

[Bob]

That does seem to be the case. We have several denominations of Christianity as is the same in Islam. Not all sects within a major religion agree with each other about what the religion's beliefs should entail. So it is very difficult at best to paint them all the same. Judaism is no different.

There are more gray areas than you care to acknowledge, because that would totally negate the left-right, black-white stance you are trying to argue from.

I grasp the nuances regarding these question far more than virtually every other person on these forums (except for some of the Jewish posters here, perhaps). I'm aware of them. Considering that most people in here are unfamiliar with nuances and unique scenarios that lie outside the norm, and the irrelevance of such nuances and outliers, why get into it? The vast majority of people who self-identify as Jewish people will be recognized as Jewish people by the vast majority of other people who self-identify as Jewish people - hence, not nearly as much dispute or controversy as some folks tend to allege regarding the question: Who is Jewish?

Edited September 19, 2011 by Bob

[Bob]

Jacee - I pretty much ignored your entire post, but I skimmed over one thing you wrote which I've seen written by others in this forum. You made a criticism against those folks who say something along the lines of, "it's worse in other places so don't look at us". I never, ever advance such an argument. If I actually thought Israel was guilty of mistreating the "Palestinians" (when indeed, we're far too easy with them), I'd say so. In other words, you're attacking something that was never said. It's called a strawman argument.

[Argus]

Canada has no moral high ground. Canadians who protest Israel's treatment of Palestinians often also protest Canada's treatment of Indigenous Peoples. The parallels are well known.

In your feverish imagination, perhaps. If you want to take a white guilt trip that's fine. Don't expect the rest of us to come along.

[Argus]

Not really.

What do you think, Bob, are Reformed Jews and Conservative Jews --- Jews? And do the chief Rabbis in Israel feel the same way? If I get converted to Judaism by a Reformed Jew can I move to Israel, or does that not qualify as Jewish?

[jbg]

If I get converted to Judaism by a Reformed Jew can I move to Israel, or does that not qualify as Jewish?

I am getting active in an organization, American Reform Zionist Assocation, that lobbies Israel on this issue. I feel strongly about it.

[Guest American Woman]

The argument "Others do it so why pick on us?" just lowers the standards for human behaviour. The Jewish holocaust happened; Does that mean somebody else gets to do it too?

Whose argument is that? And why do I feel as if that 'observation' is about as accurate as your claim that Billie Holiday died waiting to be seen in a hospital because a black woman wasn't a priority in the U.S. in those days?

Edited September 19, 2011 by American Woman

[jacee]

Jacee - I pretty much ignored your entire post, but I skimmed over one thing you wrote which I've seen written by others in this forum. You made a criticism against those folks who say something along the lines of, "it's worse in other places so don't look at us". I never, ever advance such an argument. If I actually thought Israel was guilty of mistreating the "Palestinians" (when indeed, we're far too easy with them), I'd say so. In other words, you're attacking something that was never said. It's called a strawman argument.

I see, and I agree such arguments aren't helpful and often derail threads on dispute over comparative conditions. That's not my wish.

Perhaps I somewhat misinterpreted your point of introducing Canada's lack of moral high ground re Aboriginal people, in relation to Israel's Palestinian issue. I think I took it to imply something like 'Canadians can't talk because ..,.'

But of course we can talk and acknowledge some commonalities, and I outlined some.

And we don't have moral high ground as you said, and we certainly can't criticize Israel from any lofty heights. 'Canada' doesn't officially at all to my knowledge.

I wish Israelis and Palestinians well in living together-side-by-side. Different geography - we have a LOT more of it - but another commonality with Canada perhaps?

Nobody's going anywhere. When all's said and done, we'll all still be here.

It's just a bit tricky finding the ways forward, and Israel's geography constraints complicate things tremendously, and Canadians aren't used to thinking in those terms.

But no, I'm not suggesting we 'resettle' the Palestinians here in Canada's expansive geography for you, . though Palestinians and Israelis are all welcomed through the usual channels, of course.

It's not something Canadians can solve or even imagine solving, ya got that right, if you were hinting at that.

Edited September 20, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

In your feverish imagination, perhaps. If you want to take a white guilt trip that's fine. Don't expect the rest of us to come along.

I find guilt is a useless emotion and can be debilitating if allowed to persist. Awareness and taking some personal action works better, but maybe that's just me. Edited September 20, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

Whose argument is that? And why do I feel as if that 'observation' is about as accurate as your claim that Billie Holiday died waiting to be seen in a hospital because a black woman wasn't a priority in the U.S. in those days?

Ya got me there! I must relay the truth to my misinformant.

[Guest American Woman]

Ya got me there! I must relay the truth to my misinformant.

And while you're at it, you might want to check out information yourself before posting it in the future - as I can clearly see how upset you are to have posted something that that had absolutely no truth to it.

Now back the question I asked that you didn't answer ..... Whose argument is that?

[Tilter]

Wow--- what is the nomenclature related to Pharmacist as Quack is to Doctor?

[Battletoads]

Israel is a pretty morally bankrupt country, surrounded by morally bankrupt countries. The right wing radicals scream how we should unwaveringly support them, despite their many atrocities. The left yells about the poor Palestinians and their plight, despite their many atrocities. Meanwhile I sit and wonder why we abandoned our position of neutrality.

[jbg]

Meanwhile I sit and wonder why we abandoned our position of neutrality.

I'll give you one non-Jewish related reason; look at a bloody map. If the West (including Canada) had to project military power in the Middle East in order to keep the oil flowing, where's your most reliable staging area? Any other country from the Indo-Pakistan border to the Atlantic shores of Morocco is one Arab Spring or even gunshot away from chaos.

If the tanks had to roll into Saudi Arabia where better to stage than Israel, 40 or so miles away from the Saudi border, and closer by sea.

[Keepitsimple]

One of the guys we haven't heard a peep from is that smug little chap from the University of Ottawa - Amir Attaran. You know the guy - CBC's go-to guy for the Afghan Detainee "outrage". Yep - it's pretty quiet out there.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Keepitsimple