On Health Care

[Bonam]

For example, say a city requires three MRI machines to serve the population. A good socialized system would place three MRI machines in three hospitals and they would be working at close to capacity. The American system, whereby the hospitals all compete, will have an MRI machine in every hospital, each working perhaps thirty percent of the time. Now these things cost a lot of money, so what the hospital does is encourage its doctors to get MRI's on the patients wherever it could possibly be considered of use. This drives up the cost to the patient.

Actually I don't think there's anything wrong with doing a few too many MRIs. In fact, having an MRI as part of an annual physical would probably be a good idea, and catch a lot of problems much earlier than they are otherwise detected. Same goes with other high tech diagnostics (except ones that expose you to high enough levels of ionizing radiation that you wouldn't want to have them except when there is a real need).

[jacee]

One of the reasons health care costs are higher in the U.S. is because we have enough facilities/services for everyone requiring them - while Canada relies on the U.S. when facilities/services aren't available in Canada. Canada would be spending more on health care than it does if it had to build more facilities/provide all the services Canadians needed - if it couldn't send people to the U.S. The U.S. system doesn't rely on another nation to provide a safety net of facilities/services that aren't available here. Of course that's going to account for higher costs for the U.S. and lower costs for Canada.

It's true some Canadians go to the states for specialized service or just for faster treatment. They are often (but not always) more affluent and able to pay for private medical care. However, most of those people would and do travel to specialists all over the world, not just the US.

That doesn't account for your higher health costs, which are due to higher administration costs due to the multiplicity and duplication of health insurance services. I've seen two studies that drew that conclusion, one actually calculating the costs, and one a survey of doctors who said that the variety of insurers and procedures costs them a lot in staff time too.

In the former study, the increased US costs were substantial, about 20% overall I think, all due to administration not health care costs themselves, which were comparable.

Edited September 17, 2011 by jacee

[Squeakbox]

It's a big problem and we need to find a way to incorporate personal responsibility where reasonably applicable, so that certain people are not permitted to receive services at the expense of the taxpayer that are undeserving. Consider that I've read that at least in some provinces, sex-change operations are permitted. How sick is that?

So you find a problem with people having sex-change operations? Let me tell you something - there's a reason WHY people are willing to risk surgery for sex change. It's either that or suicide for people who do it, so now you want to dive into mental health? That's a completely different matter that YOU will NEVER grasp your mind over.

Nor should you... it's not worth explaining to you, or for anyone with ANY common sense to experience it.

[Bonam]

So you find a problem with people having sex-change operations? Let me tell you something - there's a reason WHY people are willing to risk surgery for sex change. It's either that or suicide for people who do it, so now you want to dive into mental health? That's a completely different matter that YOU will NEVER grasp your mind over.

Nor should you... it's not worth explaining to you, or for anyone with ANY common sense to experience it.

I don't buy it. If it's a matter of averting suicide, these people could be much more cheaply and safely treated by a psychologist.

[Guest American Woman]

Billie Holiday died waiting to be seen in one of those free market hospitals. A black woman just wasn't a priority in those days.

Say what? Billie Holiday died in a hospital - of congestion of the lungs complicated by heart failure. link

I appreciate your concern and interest in these topics. I hope in addition to expressing your opinion you will also consider information provided to you.

And I hope you do the same. Billie Holiday was in the hospital for over a month before she died - hardly 'waiting to be seen in one of those free market hospitals because a black woman just wasn't a priority in those days' as you claimed.

(Edited to fix link)

Edited September 17, 2011 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

It's true some Canadians go to the states for specialized service or just for faster treatment. They are often (but not always) more affluent and able to pay for private medical care.

I'm clearly not talking about some Canadians who choose to go to the Sates - I'm speaking of Canadians who are sent to the States because there's not enough facilities in Canada or the service isn't available.

And yes, having enough facilities and having more services does account for higher health care costs. Why do you think Canada sends patients to the U.S. rather than build more facilities/develop the same services? And who do you think we could send such people to in a hurry if we didn't have the facilities/services available?

The fact that Canada can - and does - send some patients to the U.S. does help keep Canada's health care costs lower.

[Squeakbox]

I don't buy it. If it's a matter of averting suicide, these people could be much more cheaply and safely treated by a psychologist.

Well, I do agree that they need specialized psychologists, but even these specialized "psychologists" aren't even enough... the methods practiced and dealt with aren't being properly outputted into society.

We DO need to understand that even normal people can still face mental adversities, but someone with a more prominent type of mental illness is more self-inflicted. NOT saying they self-inflict themselves, but their own mind is self-inflicting in the uncontrollable sense of the statement.

I've been to a psychologist, and even they can't fathom the situation enough to TALK to someone like a normal person. They talk down to you sometimes, like one of those "Oh sweetie, it's okay" kind of people.

People are people, even with a mental illness.

Speaking on that topic, I don't believe any "specialized psychologist" can help, since we still have the main issue of idiot psychologist medicating children with ADHD medications through misdiagnosis.

Doctors misdiagnose, and so do psychologists.

If you want to fix the world, you have to fix ourselves, and even the doctors need their heads examined because they can't keep acting like gods of drugs and prescriptions getting their paycheck's worth when in reality certain drugs are killing people or compromising their health worse.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Squeakbox

[Sir Bandelot]

Health insurance cannot be examined as a simple product like buying an extended warranty on a laptop you buy at Best Buy - which is what you're making it out to be. I completely support socialized or single-payer healthcare systems...

What? The far-right ultra nationalist extremist is not so far right?

Now I believe in miracles

[Zachary Young]

Bob :

Certainly there is a lot a person can do to reduce their own risk of unhealth. They can eat a good diet, high in vegetables, fish, nuts, berries, some meat. They can not smoke, not drink, not engage in highly dangerous activities. They can limit their exposure to toxins. Now I don't think anyone should be FORCED to live a healthy lifestyle, but there is no small degree of moral hazard here in subsidizing the unhealthy life styles of others. If someone engages in high risk behaviour their insurance premiums will reflect that. But certainly I agree there are many diseases which cannot be prevented. And I wouldn't want to live in a society where anyone, for any reason, did not get medical care. Just because I don't want the government to supply health care to everyone doesn't mean I don't want everyone to have health care, or that I For a second think if we had a market in health care anyone would go without. We have a market in food, but who is starving to death? In reality we are much more likely to see shortages in health care in a socialized system like we have now. How long are those wait times to see a specialist again? To say nothing of opportunity costs. Who knows how far medical technology could have advanced if we unleashed the free market, if we didn't have the parasitic burden of the state making our economy sluggish?

[Bob]

Billie Holiday died waiting to be seen in one of those free market hospitals. A black woman just wasn't a priority in those days.

I appreciate your concern and interest in these topics. I hope in addition to expressing your opinion you will also consider information provided to you.

Canadians die all the time waiting for care in Canada. Their gender and skin colour is irrelevant. It happens on this side of the border, too.

[Bob]

It's true some Canadians go to the states for specialized service or just for faster treatment. They are often (but not always) more affluent and able to pay for private medical care. However, most of those people would and do travel to specialists all over the world, not just the US.

That doesn't account for your higher health costs, which are due to higher administration costs due to the multiplicity and duplication of health insurance services. I've seen two studies that drew that conclusion, one actually calculating the costs, and one a survey of doctors who said that the variety of insurers and procedures costs them a lot in staff time too.

In the former study, the increased US costs were substantial, about 20% overall I think, all due to administration not health care costs themselves, which were comparable.

Your entire post is all wrong. First of all, American Woman explicitly stated that she was listing ONE of the reasons why the per capita expenditures towards healthcare are so much higher in the USA than in Canada.

And the USA spend about twice as much as we do, per capita, on healthcare. Not 20% more.

[Bob]

So you find a problem with people having sex-change operations? Let me tell you something - there's a reason WHY people are willing to risk surgery for sex change. It's either that or suicide for people who do it, so now you want to dive into mental health? That's a completely different matter that YOU will NEVER grasp your mind over.

Nor should you... it's not worth explaining to you, or for anyone with ANY common sense to experience it.

Sex change operations should absolutely not be covered by the taxpayer. We shouldn't be accommodating people with such sick desires. If they need help, they can see a psychiatrist or psychologist.

[Bob]

I'm clearly not talking about some Canadians who choose to go to the Sates - I'm speaking of Canadians who are sent to the States because there's not enough facilities in Canada or the service isn't available.

And yes, having enough facilities and having more services does account for higher health care costs. Why do you think Canada sends patients to the U.S. rather than build more facilities/develop the same services? And who do you think we could send such people to in a hurry if we didn't have the facilities/services available?

The fact that Canada can - and does - send some patients to the U.S. does help keep Canada's health care costs lower.

But when Canada sends a Canadian to the USA to get treatment that isn't available in Canada, or isn't available on time in Canada, the taxpayer picks up the tab and pays the American costs. How does that lower Canadian expenditures on healthcare? If anything, it increases our costs.

[Bob]

What? The far-right ultra nationalist extremist is not so far right?

Now I believe in miracles

Like many others on this board, you seem to lack any sense of humour. Isn't it obvious that my self-description is a mocking of how most of leftist detractors describe me?

[Sir Bandelot]

Like many others on this board, you seem to lack any sense of humour. Isn't it obvious that my self-description is a mocking of how most of leftist detractors describe me?

Now it is your sense of humour that is lacking! For some of my posts are intended to be provocative as well.

But I'm glad you admit that. Although we clearly differ on some things, it shows you never really know who you're dealing with, until you reach out to them a little.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Sir Bandelot

[Squeakbox]

Sex change operations should absolutely not be covered by the taxpayer. We shouldn't be accommodating people with such sick desires. If they need help, they can see a psychiatrist or psychologist.

I'm not saying it's not sick - mental illness is certainly a sickness. But yes, it shouldn't be covered by taxpayers, that IS too much to ask, and isn't helping our understanding of the problem.

It's not necessarily a sick "desire", it's up to the person's situation.

I know someone, however, who doesn't get support from her mother. She's never revealed her gender problem until the last year, but she's been neglected of care from her mother for other selfish reasons by her mother.

She's not so severe that she absolutely needs the surgery, and it might make it worse, not better.

If you ask me - she's a perfectly normal female, doesn't act like a tomboy or anything. So, for her to come out with this "gender confusion" issue is out-of-touch.

I have seen people with REAL gender confusion issues, and she doesn't reflect that. Her confusion comes from being abused, she has not seen a good relationship out of just being who she is.

Gender confusion is an illness, but there are still some issues surrounding other people who claim to have this issue that can function normally if they were taught to be more confident in themselves first, never mind adding the fact that as a person you have this self-image issue growing up.

If you ask me, all these other gender-confusion-related issues are clouding up the real fact that there are children who are 5-years-old learning behaviors that are opposite to their REAL gender, and learn at puberty (or sometimes sooner) that they aren't what their gender is to them.

That is a REAL issue, not the ones who go to highschool deciding that they're not happy being their gender - this is a misguided issue that has a whole bunch of other little issues they have experienced growing up, and may need further research.

However, it is possible that, because of their situation, maybe they had this issue at a childhood age and never could speak out about it until later in life because they don't know how.

Problem is - how do you discern them from the ones who were molested in their lives to the point of deciding that, because of their traumatic experiences, that they don't like their genders anymore?

Some people can't come to terms with things, but there are still true gender confusion disorders out there, and I believe the REAL illness starts at childhood - not because of social changes or life changes.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Squeakbox

[Squeakbox]

Sex change operations should absolutely not be covered by the taxpayer. We shouldn't be accommodating people with such sick desires. If they need help, they can see a psychiatrist or psychologist.

I realize by your comment that you're calling it a "sick desire"... Sex-changes aren't "desires" as with sex, so if you're going to continue to be close-minded, there's no point in logically explaining this issue to you any further.

Like I said before - you will never understand nor should put your mind into it too much, people have different thought processes than you do. People think different ways, it does not make them sick or want to kill people.

If you're going to misjudge people, then you are severely misguided and need to recollect yourself.

Perhaps you may not know how a person could truly be when all you can do is criticize them instead of getting to know the issue.

However, like I was trying to explain - there will always be sick people doing crazy things (like sex-change surgery), but there are real people who do suffer from illnesses.

I agree also that these operations should not be funded by the government, and they should be psychiatricly evaluated.

I am not saying that ANYONE should be given this surgery, and handed a free surgery - that's ridiculous.

What I'm saying is I agree with your previous statement, but badgering on about how "sick desires" are linked to these sex-changes is absolutely absurd, and you need to recollect!

If anything, it's the evaluation process that is flawed - people are being evaluated before they get these surgeries in Canada, but sometimes the evaluation process is as absurd as the process to diagnose ADHD!

The government is going through psychiatric testing before these surgeries, and they ARE putting too many people through. They don't pry far enough into the issue, they just take your issue and don't put much scrutiny into it at times.

You need to review your sources, because people ARE being psychiatricly evaluated before these extreme surgeries are done, however it is a ridiculous system seeing as how many people are going through with it.

A person may absolutely want it - but confidence is another spectrum away from this problem.

[Guest American Woman]

One of the highest profile sex-change operations in this day is Chaz Bono, Cher's son - who was born her daughter, Chastity. He seems to be very happy and content.

I don't see sex-change operations as in the same category as elective surgery. No one would choose to find themselves in that position - to have to go through that. It's not like the desire to wear women's clothing and it's not like being gay, where one is attracted to the same sex.

I recall a program about twins where the doctor botched up one of the twin's circumcision so they decided to raise him as a girl. All of his life he rebelled against being a girl, even though he was physically a girl.

I think gender self-identification is based on more than just body parts. From what I've read, some people are born with the wrong gender bodies in relation to their gender identity.

Should tax dollars pay for such an operation? That could be debatable, I would imagine.

[jacee]

I don't buy it. If it's a matter of averting suicide, these people could be much more cheaply and safely treated by a psychologist.

Psychologists can help people cope, but they don't do the required surgery.

[Squeakbox]

One of the highest profile sex-change operations in this day is Chaz Bono, Cher's son - who was born her daughter, Chastity. He seems to be very happy and content.

I don't see sex-change operations as in the same category as elective surgery. No one would choose to find themselves in that position - to have to go through that. It's not like the desire to wear women's clothing and it's not like being gay, where one is attracted to the same sex.

I recall a program about twins where the doctor botched up one of the twin's circumcision so they decided to raise him as a girl. All of his life he rebelled against being a girl, even though he was physically a girl.

I think gender self-identification is based on more than just body parts. From what I've read, some people are born with the wrong gender bodies in relation to their gender identity.

Should tax dollars pay for such an operation? That could be debatable, I would imagine.

I remember those stories too - both of them. Cher's son was the example of childhood gender confusion I've been getting at. The botched surgery is a COMPLETELY different issue, and rare.... horrible incident, the guy that it happened to committed suicide because he knew naturally he was never really a girl, which shows how our genetic make-up is truly what makes us who we are, and to deny someone access to that surgery because they have to pay for it is terrible.

That's the incident that needs to be accounted for, but someone doing the sex change because they're not confident in themselves is another issue.

It will be a debate, but one thing is certain - for this surgery to be appropriately funded the psychiatric mental health facilities need to be better. The psychiatrists STILL don't understand enough about mental illnesses to say whether or not the person should be allowed or denied this kind of service which might save that person from lifelong anguish.

There will always be the oddball trying to get that surgery for the wrong reasons, and the mental health care is working hard to prevent it - but sometimes you still need to wonder if it's enough.

[Squeakbox]

Psychologists can help people cope, but they don't do the required surgery.

I don't think we can make Bonam understand this matter, they are obviously the kind of person that views things in a biased sense.

[Argus]

One of the reasons health care costs are higher in the U.S. is because we have enough facilities/services for everyone requiring them

You mean everyone who can pay for them...

And, in fact, you have more than you need. That's why you need anyone from around the world to come and make use of your services. The corporate model for hospitals says they have to have every gizmo, even if they only use it rarely. That means you have a lot of keen gizmos sitting around and not being used much. That's gross inefficiency and your system is ludicrously inefficient in its use of resources.

Canada would be spending more on health care than it does if it had to build more facilities/provide all the services Canadians needed - if it couldn't send people to the U.S.

The number of Canadians sent to the US is miniscule as a percentage of total health care consumers served. The Canadian system is far from perfect, but it doesn't waste resources and isn't as crippled in red tape as the US system.

[Argus]

What? The far-right ultra nationalist extremist is not so far right?

Now I believe in miracles

Have you looked at Israel's health care system?

[Guest American Woman]

You mean everyone who can pay for them...

I mean what I said.

And, in fact, you have more than you need. That's why you need anyone from around the world to come and make use of your services.

Yeah, we "need" that. It's not the Canadians who are sent here for lack of facilities/services who need it. It's us.

The corporate model for hospitals says they have to have every gizmo, even if they only use it rarely. That means you have a lot of keen gizmos sitting around and not being used much. That's gross inefficiency and your system is ludicrously inefficient in its use of resources.

It's not a "gross inefficiency" to the people's whose lives have been saved because of it - and that includes the Canadians who were sent here because Canada lacked such "gizmos."

The number of Canadians sent to the US is miniscule as a percentage of total health care consumers served.

So are you saying it wouldn't matter if they died? That in the Canada health care system people who need the "rarely used gizmos" should just die rather than cost the system more money?

The Canadian system is far from perfect, but it doesn't waste resources and isn't as crippled in red tape as the US system.

Canada sends people to the U.S. so it doesn't have to "waste resources." We are the safety net. What do you think would happen if those people couldn't be sent to the States? Canada would have to put out the money to accommodate them. Instead of spending the money, they rely on the U.S.

[Bonam]

I don't think we can make Bonam understand this matter, they are obviously the kind of person that views things in a biased sense.

I'm open minded to most things, but yes, someone would have a pretty uphill battle to try to convince me that a gender change surgery is really medically necessary for someone who has all the physical implements of their current gender. I don't see it as any more medically necessary than a boob job. Maybe some girl has low confidence and is unhappy because she thinks her breasts are too small and would psychologically benefit from having them augmented. Maybe she's so messed up about it that she's even thinking of suicide over the issue. Too freaking bad, that's a cosmetic surgery and shouldn't be covered by taxpayers.