Gap between rich and poor rising faster in Canada

[Zachary Young]

As Mises pointed out 'any amount of money supply is enough'. We have enough gold already.

There is justice on the market place. No one is forced to do anything, forced to buy anything. People can only make money by serving the needs of consumers, by creating something of value. Contrast this with government, which makes money by stealing it. There wouldn't be any lobbyists or regulations in a voluntary society. Powerful vested interests couldn't do anything but make me a sandwhich that I want to buy or give me a job I want to work. It is only when you introduce the idea of government, the ability to tax coercively that powerful people can exploit others.

People wrote songs and books long before intellectual property was ever invented, so your argument isn't credible. You would think that any author worth reading would be glad to have their work distributed far and wide even if they didn't get paid a penny for it. I don't think someone should be able to own ideas or recipes. If someone else can reproduce your book or song cheaper than you can, sucks for you. That's the beauty of the market economy. Things always cost the least for the consumer. Prices push downwards. Society keeps getting wealthier.

[Guest Derek L]

As Mises pointed out 'any amount of money supply is enough'. We have enough gold already.

Ahh, then why not allow all Canadians to print their own money?

[CPCFTW]

That was .05%

It's still retarded. I love how they act as if this tax will easily solve all our problems then they point to japan and europe. Can they get any more retarded?

Edited September 17, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Zachary Young]

Ahh, then why not allow all Canadians to print their own money?

The point is there is no need for inflation or deflation. Any amount of money serves the economy just fine. Inflation is unnecessary, and harmful because the new money does not enter the money supply evenly. First it goes to the state, and people intimately connected with it, and they get to spend it at the old rate, and then it circulates out to the rest of us and we get to spend it at the new (lesser) rate. Inflation is a transfer of wealth from those most distant to the state and also a tax on people who save.

Actually I do favour the establishment of private competing currencies, as opposed to a centralized government controlled money supply. This would naturally result in a gold standard as gold is uniquely suited to the task of being money. Our current fiat money supply, unbacked by any commodity, is unsustainable and will sooner or later collapse.

[Guest Derek L]

The point is there is no need for inflation or deflation. Any amount of money serves the economy just fine. Inflation is unnecessary, and harmful because the new money does not enter the money supply evenly. First it goes to the state, and people intimately connected with it, and they get to spend it at the old rate, and then it circulates out to the rest of us and we get to spend it at the new (lesser) rate. Inflation is a transfer of wealth from those most distant to the state and also a tax on people who save.

Actually I do favour the establishment of private competing currencies, as opposed to a centralized government controlled money supply. This would naturally result in a gold standard as gold is uniquely suited to the task of being money. Our current fiat money supply, unbacked by any commodity, is unsustainable and will sooner or later collapse.

Uh-huh…….So how would you conduct such an exchange? “Increase the price of gold” to match current monetary holdings? Or devalue current monetary holdings to equal the amount of current holding of gold? Where does the magic wand come into play? I have visions of needing a wheelbarrow full of money to purchase a loaf of bread under your plan……

[Zachary Young]

Uh-huh…….So how would you conduct such an exchange? “Increase the price of gold” to match current monetary holdings? Or devalue current monetary holdings to equal the amount of current holding of gold? Where does the magic wand come into play? I have visions of needing a wheelbarrow full of money to purchase a loaf of bread under your plan……

I would set about the creation of a new currency. Once people see how prices keep going up in the current fiat system and prices stay level in the gold currency people would rapidly switch over.

[Argus]

There is justice on the market place. No one is forced to do anything, forced to buy anything. People can only make money by serving the needs of consumers, by creating something of value. Contrast this with government, which makes money by stealing it. There wouldn't be any lobbyists or regulations in a voluntary society. Powerful vested interests couldn't do anything but make me a sandwhich that I want to buy or give me a job I want to work. It is only when you introduce the idea of government, the ability to tax coercively that powerful people can exploit others.

All of that is by way of avoiding answering my question, right? How do you stop a rich man in your society from doing whatever he wants to do to you? He has ten thousand security men working for him. You don't have anywhere near enough money to interest anyone in challenging him. Futhermore, he owns the judge. He can just have you 'arrested' by his security guys, 'tried' before his judge, and sent into his labour camp to work for free for the rest of your life.

People wrote songs and books long before intellectual property was ever invented, so your argument isn't credible.

Yes, they wrote mostly drek. The good stuff was only written by people who had a lot of time on their hands, and that time comes with money, which comes from selling your work, or having a patron, as in the old days.

You think J.K Rowling would have written all those sequels to the Harry Potter book when as soon as each one was published a bunch of people just reprinted them under their own name and made a ton of money while she made nothing? The series would have been one book long. She needed a job, remember. Without the money she'd have had to go back to work. And guess what, you working full time makes it hard to write.

You would think that any author worth reading would be glad to have their work distributed far and wide even if they didn't get paid a penny for it

.

Why in hell would they be glad of it? This is their JOB, and others distributing their work and not paying them means they're wasting their time by writing.

By way of comparison, it would be like a guy working for a year to build a nice little house, and then the moment it's done, someone else walks in, takes over, changes the locks, and laughs at him from the other side of the door. All that hard work, and he gets nothing from it.

I don't think someone should be able to own ideas or recipes. If someone else can reproduce your book or song cheaper than you can, sucks for you.

You can't copyright an idea. You can patent an invention, however, and you can copyright a work you wrote. Without them there would be no more books written except by hacks, and the occasional dreamer with nothing better to do.

That's the beauty of the market economy. Things always cost the least for the consumer.

If there isn't a reward for the producer, then the consumer has nothing to consumer. That is cheap, but I don't think you'll find them grateful.

[Guest Derek L]

I would set about the creation of a new currency. Once people see how prices keep going up in the current fiat system and prices stay level in the gold currency people would rapidly switch over.

And how would you set a form of exchange? Say I have one million dollars Canadian in the bank, and I want to exchange these current funds into your new currency……Whats the exchange rate? How did you come about said figure?

[Zachary Young]

How do I answer your absurd hypothetical? I'm not even sure what you're asking. There's some evil rich lex luther style super villian that what, goes around kicking poor people just for the thrill of it? A rich man who hires a private 10,000 person army? Have you been reading too many comic books? Of course there are evil people with 10,000 (or more) armies in real life. Dictators, governments and the like. What should someone who lives in a society ruled by one of them do? They have no recourse. But let's consider your absurd hypothetical.

We are living in an anarcho capitalist society. Super evil villian dude decides - for whatever reason, I guess he watched too many James Bond movoies? - to hire an army of 10,000 people and go around harassing others. I'm not sure where this guy got all his money from if he's such an obnoxious idiot... must have been inherited wealth?!?! Anyway, all the other private security firms would band together to defeat this evil super villian I suppose. I don't think it's terribly likely that anyone would set about to do this, or that people who join in his evil army of security agents.

Personally I don't care much if the Harry Potter books were ever written or not. You seem to hold them as some sort of ideal. Personally I'm sure society would be just as well off without them. There is quite a difference between someone stealing a house that someone built - that is indeed evil - and someone taking a look at the house, and then copying it using their own materials and land. That is no at all evil.

[Zachary Young]

And how would you set a form of exchange? Say I have one million dollars Canadian in the bank, and I want to exchange these current funds into your new currency……Whats the exchange rate? How did you come about said figure?

Exchange rates would fluctuate based on people's subjective value scales. Let's call my new currency, backed 100% by Gold, 'Rothbards'. So 1 Rothbard is equal to 1 gold gram. It can be freely exchanged for 1 gold gram at any time. So I guess the exchange value would also be the price of Gold in Canadian dollars. But the exchange rate would be determined by the market.

[Guest Derek L]

Exchange rates would fluctuate based on people's subjective value scales. Let's call my new currency, backed 100% by Gold, 'Rothbards'. So 1 Rothbard is equal to 1 gold gram. It can be freely exchanged for 1 gold gram at any time. So I guess the exchange value would also be the price of Gold in Canadian dollars. But the exchange rate would be determined by the market.

So under your plan, you’re going to devalue my current holdings in Canadian currency?

[Zachary Young]

So under your plan, you’re going to devalue my current holdings in Canadian currency?

The Bank of Canada devalues your holdings by printing more money. A currency backed by a gold standard would actually grow in value each year, instead of steadily losing value.

[Argus]

How do I answer your absurd hypothetical? I'm not even sure what you're asking. There's some evil rich lex luther style super villian that what, goes around kicking poor people just for the thrill of it? A rich man who hires a private 10,000 person army? Have you been reading too many comic books?

You're suggesting public police would be replaced by private police. Well, there are hundreds of thousands of public police right now. That means there'd be hundreds of thousands of private police, and obviously, large corporations would control most of them. Why do you find this shocking? Blackwater has 10,000 employees now, and there are estimated to be something like a million security guards, security officers, and private police in the United States NOW. In the event of public police disappearing firms like Blackwater would explode in size.

We are living in an anarcho capitalist society. Super evil villian dude decides - for whatever reason, I guess he watched too many James Bond movoies? - to hire an army of 10,000 people and go around harassing others.

I would say the reason would be money. He runs labour camps, too. So he wants to get a lot of employees who will work for nothing as indentured slaves. Not too hard when he owns the judges and cops, and when 'victims' get a share of your wages.

Anyway, all the other private security firms would band together to defeat this evil super villian I suppose.

Why would they do that? As I said, there are over one million security guards and private police now in the US. I suppose the figure for Canada is about one tenth that, or 100,000. Someone has to be owning the companies who employ all those people, and they're all in it to make money. Why fight each other when it's much more profitable to just keep arresting people and putting them in camps?

Personally I don't care much if the Harry Potter books were ever written or not. You seem to hold them as some sort of ideal. Personally I'm sure society would be just as well off without them.

Would it have made you feel better if I said Star Wars? Why make those if people can just copy them and sell them? What about Apple coming out with a new Iphone? What's the point when all their competitors will be copying and selling it the next month?

There is quite a difference between someone stealing a house that someone built - that is indeed evil - and someone taking a look at the house, and then copying it using their own materials and land. That is no at all evil.

Yes, the difference is that simply looking at it and building another takes a lot of work and doesn't harm the original builder. It takes no work to scan and re-sell someone else's song or movie or book under your own name, and you rob them of most of the money they would have made for their hard work and talent.

[Guest Derek L]

The Bank of Canada devalues your holdings by printing more money. A currency backed by a gold standard would actually grow in value each year, instead of steadily losing value.

Then what happens when all currency reserves are converted to Gold and there isn’t enough Gold to exchange current currencies?…..Deflation….then Depression

[Zachary Young]

Again you are making the mistake of imaging that a libertarian society would exactly mimic a statist society. This is not true. Why would we have to keep as many police? Obviously we don't need nearly as many police as we have today. Or rather the supply of "police" (and I say "police" because they would only serve SOME funtions that modern police serve. Obviously they wouldn't be spying on us, confiscating our property, locking us in jail for non crimes like smoking pot etc.) would match the demand. Blackwater is a creature of the U.S. government. They are paid for by the U.S. government. They aren't 'private' in any real meaningful sense of the term. Yes, there would be private security firms, not like Blackwater (which is essentially mercenaries), but focused on protecting individuals and their property from harm.

Now your supposed villian owns labour camps and goes about enslaving innocent people? This is farcical indeed. Obviously the families of some of the innocent people enslaved would raise hell and people would shut this evil person down and probably kill him. But this is just an absurd hypothetical... something out of a james bond movie, not out of realty. The real world doesn't function like your delusional night mares about freedom.

Private security agencies are responsible to their clients. If they didn't do a good job of protecting their clients they would quickly go bankrupt as no one would pay their policies. This is a great market check on corruption or bad service. On the other hand, when the actual police do not protect you, what is your recourse? Stop paying your taxes and go to jail for your troubles?

[Zachary Young]

Then what happens when all currency reserves are converted to Gold and there isn’t enough Gold to exchange current currencies?…..Deflation….then Depression

Why isn't there enough Gold? Any amount of money supply is enough. We could have a money supply of one dollar, we would just have to issue .00000000000000000000000000000001 cent denomination coins. Perhaps you don't have the right background in economics to understand this point.

[Guest Derek L]

Why isn't there enough Gold? Any amount of money supply is enough. We could have a money supply of one dollar, we would just have to issue .00000000000000000000000000000001 cent denomination coins. Perhaps you don't have the right background in economics to understand this point.

No, I do, just not the right background in fantasy......Whats the current price of Gold? What are the current known holdings of Gold on the planet? What are the current known holdings of currency on the planet? (using the US Dollar as a base)

How is the difference made-up?

[Zachary Young]

No, I do, just not the right background in fantasy......Whats the current price of Gold? What are the current known holdings of Gold on the planet? What are the current known holdings of currency on the planet? (using the US Dollar as a base)

How is the difference made-up?

Gold is around $1800 an ounce. You don't have to make up the difference. Prices will just be WAYYYY cheaper in gold currency (to account for smaller money supply).

Edited September 17, 2011 by Zachary Young

[Guest Derek L]

Gold is around $1800 an ounce. You don't have to make up the difference. Prices will just be WAYYYY cheaper in gold currency (to account for smaller money supply).

And what is it a gram? Plug that number into your 1:1 exchange rate and compare it with current currencies.....

[Zachary Young]

A gold standard would put an end to the business cycle. Instead of prices going up every year we would have a slow and healthy deflation. Lastly it would end inflation and restore the incentive to save. Saving is critical to a healthy economy, because without saving there is no investment, no capital accumulation, no long term healthy economic growth.

[Guest Derek L]

A gold standard would put an end to the business cycle. Instead of prices going up every year we would have a slow and healthy deflation. Lastly it would end inflation and restore the incentive to save. Saving is critical to a healthy economy, because without saving there is no investment, no capital accumulation, no long term healthy economic growth.

And what is it a gram? Plug that number into your 1:1 exchange rate and compare it with current currencies.....

It’s pretty easy to opine about screwing with other people’s money, much like a Communist, when you have none at all………….

You figure out a way that I could exchange my current finical worth at a 1:1 ratio of exchange under your Gold Standard based currency, than we’ll talk.

[Zachary Young]

So, if prices in Gold currency were 1% of what they are under our current fiat system, and there was a 1:100 exchange rate you would object because you didn't have the same amount of money? You wouldn't lose anything with this new system. Actually you have quite a lot to gain/.

[Guest Derek L]

So, if prices in Gold currency were 1% of what they are under our current fiat system, and there was a 1:100 exchange rate you would object because you didn't have the same amount of money? You wouldn't lose anything with this new system. Actually you have quite a lot to gain/.

And what would happen to your Gold backed currency if the price of Gold suddenly collapsed, due to a lessening of demand and/or an increase in world wide production? What would make your gold stand out?

[jacee]

Jacee, from Blog posts? And as far as read, not even the posts themselves, but the comments after them? They are statements of opinion, which though valid, carry no more weight then yours or mine…….

This is very quickly turning into a philosophical discussion, one wrapped around ideology, which in of itself is fine, but it should be stated as such……you have opnions, I have opnions.

When you talk about the Canadian household average it is exactly that…..an average….there are poor people, middle class, well off, and “Rich”, and the average reflects that.

Just a school classroom could determine the grade point average in any class, they’re will be super smart kids, average and challenged…..You can take it further, some children will have poor grades because they’re just plain stupid…some because they’re lazy….and some skip-out….Just as some smart ones will only have they artificially high grade because they cheated……And the average students, with an increased effort could potentially become the A students, just as some average ones with a decreased amount of effort will garner Ds and Fs…….No two people, thankfully are the same……or if you prefer:

All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others…..

If you want all Canadians to be taxed equally, you tax them all the same rate.

I don't think tinkering with the system is called for until we make sure we can fully implement the tax laws we have.

Maybe that's why some of the superrich of France are petitioning the government to collect more taxes from them? Maybe they want to avoid such scrutiny?

Maybe ours will too?

I found out the source of the "1/3 of the world's wealth offshore" : It's from the 1998 Merrill Lynch/Capgemini World Wealth Report (can't download). Referred to in a comment link on this page, below the abstract for this other article on that topic;

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2011/03/31/the-missing-wealth-of-nations-evidence-from-switzerland-1914-2010/

New : Europe and the U.S. net Debtors or net Creditors? FEEM Award at the 2011 EEA Congress Working Paper, July 2011

"This paper draws on direct evidence from Swiss banks and on systematic inconsistencies in international accounts across countries to document the level of unrecorded wealth in tax havens, its nature and its evolution. I find that 8% of globa household net financial wealth is held in tax havens, of which one third is in Switzerland. The bulk of offshore assets are nvested in equities, in particular mutual fund shares. For this reason, 20% of all cross-border equities have no identifiable owner in international statistics across the world. Taking into account tax havens alters dramatically the picture of globa mbalances: with minimal assumptions, it is possible to turn the world’s second largest debtor, the eurozone, into a net creditor. With stronger assumptions, the largest debtor, the U. S., can be made a balanced economy. Europeans are richer than we think, because a significant part of their wealth has historically been held where domestic national accountants and tax authorities cannot see it.""

___________

Some animals are more 'equal' ... ? That's it? That's your 'philosophy'?

You're just going to roll over and pay more taxes because the richEST aren't paying their fair share?

I'm disappointed! I thought you were spunkier than that!

Edited September 17, 2011 by jacee

[Guest Derek L]

I don't think tinkering with the system is called for until we make sure we can fully implement the tax laws we have.

Maybe that's why some of the superrich of France are petitioning the government to collect more taxes from them? Maybe they want to avoid such scrutiny?

Maybe ours will too?

I found out the source of the "1/3 of the world's wealth offshore" : It's from the 1998 Merrill Lynch/Capgemini World Wealth Report (can't download). Referred to in a comment link on this page, below the abstract for this other article on that topic;

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2011/03/31/the-missing-wealth-of-nations-evidence-from-switzerland-1914-2010/

New  : Europe and the U.S. net Debtors or net Creditors?  FEEM Award at the 2011 EEA Congress Working Paper, July 2011

"This paper draws on direct evidence from Swiss banks and on systematic inconsistencies in international accounts across countries to document the level of unrecorded wealth in tax havens, its nature and its evolution. I find that 8% of globa household net financial wealth is held in tax havens, of which one third is in Switzerland. The bulk of offshore assets are nvested in equities, in particular mutual fund shares. For this reason, 20% of all cross-border equities have no identifiable owner in international statistics across the world. Taking into account tax havens alters dramatically the picture of globa mbalances: with minimal assumptions, it is possible to turn the world’s second largest debtor, the eurozone, into a net creditor. With stronger assumptions, the largest debtor, the U. S., can be made a balanced economy. Europeans are richer than we think, because a significant part of their wealth has historically been held where domestic national accountants and tax authorities cannot see it.""

___________

If you realistically want to change something, without having adverse affects on taxes (and the economy) under the current system……….cut-out the loopholes/havens/deductions etc, but also decrease all current rates a few percentage points (5%) for everyone…………You have to practice give and take…………If required, add a point to the current HST/GST to offset any loss in revenue.

Some animals are more 'equal' ... ? That's it? That's your 'philosophy'?

You're just going to roll over and pay more taxes because the richEST aren't paying their fair share?

I'm disappointed! I thought you were spunkier than that!

The more equal animal line, is in reference to a book (animal farm) written by (George Orwell) a socialist………..It’s meaning? The “dichotomy” of society as seen by someone that purports to adhering to a political philosophy (Socialism) that places everyone as equal.

I’m in favour of equal rights and equal (earned) opportunity, but that will never make all people equal, regardless of the metric that you use to rank them as such………To think different, well perhaps noble in aspiration, is naïve in practice.