Keystone Pipeline XL passes first hurdle

[waldo]

for your own self-serving purposes, are you choosing to ignore stated facts? Easy question..

Not at all, the where fore and the why doesn't mater... Hence my assertion at the beginning of this thread about the EPA's intrusive regulations......

whaaaa! Oh my... I accept your unconditional surrender... that your assertion isn't subject to the scrutinies of wherefore and why!

[Guest Derek L]

whaaaa! Oh my... I accept your unconditional surrender... that your assertion isn't subject to the scrutinies of wherefore and why!

Are both sites waiting for environmental permits? Easy question.....

[waldo]

move along now... you assert your assertion is not subject to critical scrutiny... you assert, "wherefore and why don't matter". You assert your assertion isn't subject to fact oversight and review! You assert it!

[Guest Derek L]

move along now... you assert your assertion is not subject to critical scrutiny... you assert, "wherefore and why don't matter". You assert your assertion isn't subject to fact oversight and review! You assert it!

Move along? You asked me to back up my assertion that the EPA’s regs hinder new refinery construction and I did.....Not my fault the facts don’t line up with your agenda.

Perhaps it’s time you move along to another “cause”.....I understand baby seals don’t like being skinned......just saying

[waldo]

Not my fault the facts don’t line up with your agenda.

let's share some more of the wherefore and why...

- those so-called, as you say, "intrusive EPA regulations", certainly haven't hindered the granting of EPA permits for upgrade/expansion capacity... to the effective equivalency of 23 new oil refineries, hey? But, then again, wherefore and why is simply an inconvenient truth for you... and your agenda, hey?

oh wait... what's this? Surely not more wherefore and why and scrutinizing fact!!! Wall Street Journal:

Exxon Mobil Corp. says it believes that, by 2030, hybrid gasoline-and-electric cars and light trucks will account for nearly 30% of new-vehicle sales in the U.S. and Canada. That surge is part of a broader shift toward fuel efficiency that Exxon thinks will cause fuel consumption by North American cars and light trucks to peak around 2020 -- and then start to fall.

"

For that reason, we wouldn't build a grassroots refinery" in the U.S., Rex Tillerson, Exxon's chairman and chief executive, said in a recent interview. Exxon has continued to expand the capacity of its existing refineries. But building a new refinery from scratch, Exxon believes, would be bad for long-term business

say what! No new refineries cause it would be bad for the BigOil bottom line... nah, c'mon... Derek L says it's all to do with his asserted assertion, without regard to wherefore and why and fact oversight/scrutiny, that, as stated, EPA "intrusive" regulations are the cause.

by the by... let me know if you'd like to explore the circumstances surrounding the demise of independent refiners... you know... the one's forced out of business by the biggies. You know, the capacity that associated with independent refiners... correction: the (former/lost) capacity associated with independents. I believe we could have some fun with this one... let me know, hey?

like I said Derek L - best you move along now... particularly since you've really got my attention now - that baby seals crack should be inscribed on your virtual MLW tombstone!!! :lol:

[Guest Derek L]

If there is no market for the construction of new refineries, why are these two companies trying to build them?

And again, why haven’t they been completed?

[waldo]

If there is no market for the construction of new refineries, why are these two companies trying to build them?

And again, why haven’t they been completed?

you... are... extremely... obtuse! But you appear resilient even after receiving my prior posts thundering blitzkrieg in the form of a representative BigOil statement/position on why no refineries are being built. BigOil says, "no new refineries cause it'll hurt our bottom line"... Derek L challenges BigOil's market evaluation!!!

attempting to twist words is typically the sign of the vanquished... I certainly didn't say there is 'no' market for refinery construction. My latest BigOil rep quote implies there's a limited/reserved market, subject to... shall we say... economies of scale. Perhaps, from that viewpoint, you should attempt to answer your own question as it reflects upon these 2 most recent refinery situations... you know, expand your horizons beyond your current myopic regulatory based assertion... the one you haven't, and can't, substantiate.

[Guest Derek L]

you... are... extremely... obtuse! But you appear resilient even after receiving my prior posts thundering blitzkrieg in the form of a representative BigOil statement/position on why no refineries are being built. BigOil says, "no new refineries cause it'll hurt our bottom line"... Derek L challenges BigOil's market evaluation!!!

attempting to twist words is typically the sign of the vanquished... I certainly didn't say there is 'no' market for refinery construction. My latest BigOil rep quote implies there's a limited/reserved market, subject to... shall we say... economies of scale. Perhaps, from that viewpoint, you should attempt to answer your own question as it reflects upon these 2 most recent refinery situations... you know, expand your horizons beyond your current myopic regulatory based assertion... the one you haven't, and can't, substantiate.

I already did substantiate my claim about EPA regs, with the sources you tried to refute my claim with...

As for Exxon worried about the economic feasibility of building new refineries with the United States, after seeing the regulatory nightmare these other two companies are going through, I don’t blame them………I don’t doubt for a second that by the time a new oil refinery is built within the United States, we’ll all be driving hovercrafts fuelled by the laughter of children……….

[waldo]

I already did substantiate my claim about EPA regs, with the sources you tried to refute my claim with...

you're deluded... I punted you on every level... every bullshit claim you made.

As for Exxon worried about the economic feasibility of building new refineries with the United States, after seeing the regulatory nightmare these other two companies are going through, I don’t blame them………

nice to see you conflating actual market assessment with your unsupported, unsubstantiated assertion concerning the regulatory framework! It's a shame the position of BigOil on new refinery build didn't align with your fabrications... sorry to burst your imaginary world! I trust you'll be able to work through your described delusional, boogeyman, regulatory nightmare. You know, the nightmare you failed to contrive over the reality that reflects directly upon actual decisions/actions taken directly by Native American Indians and/or the respective 'refiner companies' involved.

- you choose to ignore the fact the Arizona refinery (initial) delay was caused by Native-American Indians exercising their legal options, and that the (current) delay is caused by the company, Arizona Clean Fuels, itself... that

the company, Arizona Clean Fuels, solely at its discretion/prerogative, has chosen to relocate to a new location... necessitating the need/requirement for a new permit process

.

- you choose to ignore the fact that during the same period of time you're beaking off about a "EPA regulatory imposed air permit" delay to the South Dakota refinery, the company Hyperion also needed to secure state level, non-air permits relating to, (1) water rights and (2) water discharge. Additionally, the company Hyperion needed to secure a wetlands permit from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. You're also choosing to ignore that the initial air permit granted by the EPA was predicated on

review and associated analysis of information related to the company Hyperion's initial application

... an initial application that one can only assume was either lacking or incomplete, given

your own supplied link's

indication that, "an unaccounted source of emissions was not included in assessing and granting an air permit". As I already stated:

... it states, as I said, the EPA has determined

an unaccounted source of emissions was not included in assessing and granting an air permit

... it states, as I said, the Sierra Club (amongst others) would like a re-do (i.e., as your link states, they (the Sierra Club) would like the existing permit invalidated. I do not read anything that suggests, as you have now stated, "a environmental lobby group used the EPA regulation to halt production". Perhaps you do have something to fully qualify your statement...

here... read it again - you really should, know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em!

Exxon Mobil Corp. says it believes that, by 2030, hybrid gasoline-and-electric cars and light trucks will account for nearly 30% of new-vehicle sales in the U.S. and Canada. That surge is part of a broader shift toward fuel efficiency that Exxon thinks will cause fuel consumption by North American cars and light trucks to peak around 2020 -- and then start to fall.

"For that reason, we wouldn't build a grassroots refinery" in the U.S., Rex Tillerson, Exxon's chairman and chief executive, said in a recent interview. Exxon has continued to expand the capacity of its existing refineries. But building a new refinery from scratch, Exxon believes, would be bad for long-term business

[Guest Derek L]

you're deluded... I punted you on every level... every bullshit claim you made.

nice to see you conflating actual market assessment with your unsupported, unsubstantiated assertion concerning the regulatory framework! It's a shame the position of BigOil on new refinery build didn't align with your fabrications... sorry to burst your imaginary world! I trust you'll be able to work through your described delusional, boogeyman, regulatory nightmare. You know, the nightmare you failed to contrive over the reality that reflects directly upon actual decisions/actions taken directly by Native American Indians and/or the respective 'refiner companies' involved.

here... read it again - you really should, know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em!

When did I ever state “big oil” had plans to build new refineries within the United States? Aside from the two planned sites that are pending environmental permits, this is not the case.

From my first few posts in the thread:

Option 1 To clarify, the construction of new refineries.......

As for relevance, I’d say the as of yet unattainable “standards” under the clean air act for oil production burn off………My hope, an increase in not only drilling, but the production of the end product will reduce the price at retail outlets.

Obviously this will require some nudging and fiscal support by our three governments to get the oil companies onboard, but if the North American voter wants cheap gas, this is one way to achieve it. One could also argue the benefits for the oil companies, in that having a cheaper, and more stable product than the middle east/OPEC, might make our oil more attractive to growing markets in Asia (Red China) and in turn we could see further investment dollars from them as opposed to our taxpayers in a round-about way.

No where did I say major investment on new US based oil refineries is planned…………In fact I suggested government would require investment and changing of laws to encourage the oil companies to reverse their stance.......Why would they invest in a new refinery if it's going to held up for years in court over environmental regulations?

Your shotgun approach is starting to look pretty weak……I think you need to add roughly 23% more insults and 46.2% more emoticons to your posts to enable me further interest *Yawn*

[waldo]

Again, to clarify, many of these new regulation require emissions controls that either the technology is not mature or economically viable as of yet. Why would business invest in newer technology such as carbon capture when they receive no direct benefit?

As to why I feel increased refining well result in a net benefit for the North American consumer (We can include Mexico also) is simple supply and demand.

You tell me, why aren’t new refineries being built in the United States?

Why haven’t any been built in the 90s under Clinton? Or now under Obama……When was the last one built? In the 70s?

I did state my belief as to why new refineries are not being built, excessive government regulation.

I’m not back pedaling, I still stand by the fact that the production of new refineries is curtailed by government regulation

I continue to assert that oil companies don’t build new refineries within the United States because of environmental regulations… Do you have anything to support your claim(s)? Or to explain why new refineries have been and are being built across the world, minus the United States?

When did I ever state “big oil” had plans to build new refineries within the United States?

No where did I say major investment on new US based oil refineries is planned…………

I mean, really... c'mon... your whole premise was founded upon a position you couldn't support or substantiate; i.e., that no new refineries were being built because of your imaginary, fabricated "nightmare"... your claimed "intrusive EPA regulations". Are you really sure that after all your whining & sniveling over your expression of the failure of any new refineries being built to meet the production vs. consumption gap... are you really sure you now want to claim you just made it all up? Or that, better yet, you're now stating that no new refineries and/or related investments for same, were being planned anyway - suggesting your whole fabrication was/is predicated upon an underlying fabrication itself? Are you really asking for a do-over?

as for your self-pity and victim playing over presumed insults, none were offered... none were provided. Calling you obtuse (or deluded), are not insults; they're simply a statement of fact predicated upon your demonstrated nonsensical behaviour within this thread.

[Guest Derek L]

I mean, really... c'mon... your whole premise was founded upon a position you couldn't support or substantiate; i.e., that no new refineries were being built because of your imaginary, fabricated "nightmare"... your claimed "intrusive EPA regulations". Are you really sure that after all your whining & sniveling over your expression of the failure of any new refineries being built to meet the production vs. consumption gap... are you really sure you now want to claim you just made it all up? Or that, better yet, you're now stating that no new refineries and/or related investments for same, were being planned anyway - suggesting your whole fabrication was/is predicated upon an underlying fabrication itself? Are you really asking for a do-over?

as for your self-pity and victim playing over presumed insults, none were offered... none were provided. Calling you obtuse (or deluded), are not insults; they're simply a statement of fact predicated upon your demonstrated nonsensical behaviour within this thread.

And what is your point? I’m not being obtuse, I really don’t know what point it is you’re trying to prove……

New Oil refineries are not being built within the United States?

Doing so is not economically viable when compared to expansion of current facilities or building new ones overseas? This being evident by the two, as of yet, unsuccessful attempts to build two new oil refineries in the United States.

There’s no world market for new oil refineries?

What yeah getting at old boy? Timmy fall down a (oil) well?

[waldo]

I really don’t know what point it is you’re trying to prove……

inCredIBle! And just what was your point in continuing to harp on, continuing to challenge on, continuing to beak-off on... no new refineries being built in the U.S.?

[Guest Derek L]

inCredIBle! And just what was your point in continuing to harp on, continuing to challenge on, continuing to beak-off on... no new refineries being built in the U.S.?

Environmental regulations make it uneconomically feasible to build new oil refineries within the United States.

[jbg]

as for your self-pity and victim playing over presumed insults, none were offered... none were provided. Calling you obtuse (or deluded), are not insults; they're simply a statement of fact predicated upon your demonstrated nonsensical behaviour within this thread.

The King of Multi-Quoting strikes again!!!

[bush_cheney2004]

The King of Multi-Quoting strikes again!!!

Yea...we're checking the record books now....that one was nested 6 deep!

[waldo]

I really don’t know what point it is you’re trying to prove……

inCredIBle! And just what was your point in continuing to harp on, continuing to challenge on, continuing to beak-off on... no new refineries being built in the U.S.?

Environmental regulations make it uneconomically feasible to build new oil refineries within the United States.

well, really... it was a rhetorical question. You quite clearly failed to support and substantiate your non-nonsensical premise.

... notwithstanding the following double-dose replay of the most cogent BigOil market assessment point you continue to ignore:

Wall Street Journal

:

Exxon Mobil Corp. says it believes that, by 2030, hybrid gasoline-and-electric cars and light trucks will account for nearly 30% of new-vehicle sales in the U.S. and Canada. That surge is part of a broader shift toward fuel efficiency that Exxon thinks will cause fuel consumption by North American cars and light trucks to peak around 2020 -- and then start to fall.

"

For that reason, we wouldn't build a grassroots refinery" in the U.S., Rex Tillerson, Exxon's chairman and chief executive, said in a recent interview. Exxon has continued to expand the capacity of its existing refineries. But building a new refinery from scratch, Exxon believes, would be bad for long-term business

say what! No new refineries cause it would be bad for the BigOil bottom line... nah, c'mon... Derek L says it's all to do with his asserted assertion, without regard to wherefore and why and fact oversight/scrutiny, that, as stated, EPA "intrusive" regulations are the cause.

here... read it again - you really should, know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em!

Exxon Mobil Corp. says it believes that, by 2030, hybrid gasoline-and-electric cars and light trucks will account for nearly 30% of new-vehicle sales in the U.S. and Canada. That surge is part of a broader shift toward fuel efficiency that Exxon thinks will cause fuel consumption by North American cars and light trucks to peak around 2020 -- and then start to fall.

"For that reason, we wouldn't build a grassroots refinery" in the U.S., Rex Tillerson, Exxon's chairman and chief executive, said in a recent interview. Exxon has continued to expand the capacity of its existing refineries. But building a new refinery from scratch, Exxon believes, would be bad for long-term business

... notwithstanding the regulatory framework most certainly didn't preclude BigOil from perusing the equivalency of 23 new refineries being built, alternatively in the form of upgrades/expansion to existing refineries... a point most clearly articulated by the BigOil chairman and chief executive in the aforementioned WSJ Journal article/link.

...

increased capacity through expansion of existing plants

?

Moreover, since 1985, when refinery capacity hit a low of 14.7 million barrels per day, we've seen over three million barrels of capacity added, or the equivalent to 23 average modern day facilities. A stark contrast to the misleading tidbit about having no new refineries built since the 1970's.

So while we haven't seen new refineries open in new locations, we have virtually added the capacity of 23 of today's average size facilities

.

apparently... all that excessive government regulation you speak of, hasn't affected expansion one diddly... the effective new capacity equivalency to 23 new refineries

... notwithstanding

- you choose to ignore the fact the Arizona refinery (initial) delay was caused by Native-American Indians exercising their legal options, and that the (current) delay is caused by the company, Arizona Clean Fuels, itself... that

the company, Arizona Clean Fuels, solely at its discretion/prerogative, has chosen to relocate to a new location... necessitating the need/requirement for a new permit process

.

... notwithstanding

- you choose to ignore the fact that during the same period of time you're beaking off about a "EPA regulatory imposed air permit" delay to the South Dakota refinery, the company Hyperion also needed to secure state level, non-air permits relating to, (1) water rights and (2) water discharge. Additionally, the company Hyperion needed to secure a wetlands permit from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. You're also choosing to ignore that the initial air permit granted by the EPA was predicated on

review and associated analysis of information related to the company Hyperion's initial application

... an initial application that one can only assume was either lacking or incomplete, given

your own supplied link's

indication that, "an unaccounted source of emissions was not included in assessing and granting an air permit". As I already stated:

... it states, as I said, the EPA has determined

an unaccounted source of emissions was not included in assessing and granting an air permit

... it states, as I said, the Sierra Club (amongst others) would like a re-do (i.e., as your link states, they (the Sierra Club) would like the existing permit invalidated. I do not read anything that suggests, as you have now stated, "a environmental lobby group used the EPA regulation to halt production". Perhaps you do have something to fully qualify your statement...

Derek L... would you like a do-over?

[dre]

My hope, an increase in not only drilling, but the production of the end product will reduce the price at retail outlets.

Its unlikely as long as we continue to participate in the oil futures game. Trends in pricing are driven mostly by speculation. Domestic production is unlikely to reduce prices for this reason. Canada is a good example of this... oil production has quadrupled over the last 12 of 15 years but we have seen the same increases in price at the pump as everyone else.

Environmental regulations make it uneconomically feasible to build new oil refineries within the United States.

Theres more reasons than just environmental regulations for why more refineries are not built. The biggest reason is that its easy to build capacity at existing sites by upgrading technology. People like to quote the number of refineries in this debate but its misleading.

For example... There used to be more than 40 refineries in Canada and now there is only 18. That makes it seem like we are getting out of the refining game right? Not so fast... Canadas 18 refineries today have more than double the capacity of the 44 we had 30 years ago. So we have more than doubled refining capacity. The same is true in the US where virtually no refineries have been built in the last few decades.

The other problem is that environmental regulations or not, refining is the ugly duckling of the oil industry and petroleum countries make more profit on drilling and exploration.

[Guest Derek L]

well, really... it was a rhetorical question. You quite clearly failed to support and substantiate your non-nonsensical premise.

... notwithstanding the following double-dose replay of the most cogent BigOil market assessment point you continue to ignore:

[/indent]

... notwithstanding the regulatory framework most certainly didn't preclude BigOil from perusing the equivalency of 23 new refineries being built, alternatively in the form of upgrades/expansion to existing refineries... a point most clearly articulated by the BigOil chairman and chief executive in the aforementioned WSJ Journal article/link.

... notwithstanding

... notwithstanding

Derek L... would you like a do-over?

A do-over of what?

Exxon is expanding current facilities as opposed to building new ones, since they feel it uneconomically feasible?

The only two new refinery projects undertaken in the United States have been held-up over environmental permits?

Is ConocoPhillips or Chevron building new refineries in the states?

You got me, I concede the point, the three largest US oil companies are not building new refineries in the United States......Oh, wait.....I never said that they were.

So what are you getting at? You seem excited, like you’re going to teach me something else that I already know………

[Guest Derek L]

Its unlikely as long as we continue to participate in the oil futures game. Trends in pricing are driven mostly by speculation. Domestic production is unlikely to reduce prices for this reason. Canada is a good example of this... oil production has quadrupled over the last 12 of 15 years but we have seen the same increases in price at the pump as everyone else.

But the higher price at the pump can also be attributed as a sign of a healthy economy fuelling (pun intended) demand…….until the economy slows again………….look at the average price in the mid 90s per barrel, than the drop after the DOT.com bubble burst……….Then again the rising price in the middle of last decade, than the nose dive it took during the financial crisis…………throw in other spikes attributed to wars and natural disasters etc

I will agree, the overall trend is increasing, but production is not increasing at the same rate the worlds demand is…………Either decrease demand or increase production.

Theres more reasons than just environmental regulations for why more refineries are not built. The biggest reason is that its easy to build capacity at existing sites by upgrading technology. People like to quote the number of refineries in this debate but its misleading.

For example... There used to be more than 40 refineries in Canada and now there is only 18. That makes it seem like we are getting out of the refining game right? Not so fast... Canadas 18 refineries today have more than double the capacity of the 44 we had 30 years ago. So we have more than doubled refining capacity. The same is true in the US where virtually no refineries have been built in the last few decades.

Why is it easier though?…………New refineries are being or have been built in Asia, the Middle East and Africa in the last couple of decades………….Well at the same time current facilities have been drastically expanded……..But not in the United States, the sole nation with the world’s largest energy demand.

The other problem is that environmental regulations or not, refining is the ugly duckling of the oil industry and petroleum countries make more profit on drilling and exploration.

Drilling and exploration can be feast or famine…..refining and petrochemicals are the bread and butter

[Guest Derek L]

Yea...we're checking the record books now....that one was nested 6 deep!

I’m a firm believer that everyone has at least one talent

[Guest Derek L]

To add to the point about new refineries being built in Canada :

A proposed one in NB

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2008/01/14/nb-environmentalists.html

One just completed in Nova Scotia, and one starting in Newfoundland:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-15/new-york-gasoline-weakens-after-oil-refineries-start-in-canada.html

A new one in Alberta:

http://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com/Article/2863970/Jacobs-wins-EPC-deal-for-new-Canada-oil-refinery.html

Just these four examples have doubled the proposed amount being built within the United States in nearly 35 years.......

[dre]

But the higher price at the pump can also be attributed as a sign of a healthy economy fuelling (pun intended) demand…….until the economy slows again………….look at the average price in the mid 90s per barrel, than the drop after the DOT.com bubble burst……….Then again the rising price in the middle of last decade, than the nose dive it took during the financial crisis…………throw in other spikes attributed to wars and natural disasters etc

I will agree, the overall trend is increasing, but production is not increasing at the same rate the worlds demand is…………Either decrease demand or increase production.

Why is it easier though?…………New refineries are being or have been built in Asia, the Middle East and Africa in the last couple of decades………….Well at the same time current facilities have been drastically expanded……..But not in the United States, the sole nation with the world’s largest energy demand.

Drilling and exploration can be feast or famine…..refining and petrochemicals are the bread and butter

Why is it easier though?

Its easier to manage a small number of large and more productive facilities than a greater number of smaller ones. Basically what has happened is that new technologies and equipment have become available that allows operators to upgrade existing plants relatively cheaply.

Heres what the CPPI says...

Today, there are 18 operating refineries in Canada. Over the past 35 years, the number of Canadian refineries has decreased significantly, as smaller inefficient facilities were closed and replaced with more efficient, cleaner and expanded facilities. These 18 refineries have a combined capacity that is double the capacity of the 44 refineries in operation in Canada in the early 1970s. This rationalization has been underpinned and enabled by the application of new technologies, processes and equipment.

I will agree, the overall trend is increasing, but production is not increasing at the same rate the worlds demand is…………Either decrease demand or increase production.

But production meets demand with some to spare. Real shortages are very rare. The actual trend in price is driven by how much oil is being discovered in the ground each year compared to projected consumption levels in 20 years. Thats why prices have trended upwards, and thats why new production coming online today does not impact prices much as long as its traded on the mercantile exchange.

[Guest Derek L]

Its easier to manage a small number of large and more productive facilities than a greater number of smaller ones. Basically what has happened is that new technologies and equipment have become available that allows operators to upgrade existing plants relatively cheaply.

Heres what the CPPI says...

But production meets demand with some to spare. Real shortages are very rare. The actual trend in price is driven by how much oil is being discovered in the ground each year compared to projected consumption levels in 20 years. Thats why prices have trended upwards, and thats why new production coming online today does not impact prices much as long as its traded on the mercantile exchange.

I think I just beat you to posting, my above post, shows four new refineries built or building within the last few years in Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think I just beat you to posting, my above post, shows four new refineries built or building within the last few years in Canada.

What do you consider to be a "refinery"? The US went hog wild for ethanol/biofuel plants in the past 15 years (over 200 built), biting off about 7% of the motor fuels market (and conventionally produced petroleum distillates).

Edited August 30, 2011 by bush_cheney2004