Layton Lionisation Excessive

[Guest Peeves]

The question now becomes, will there be a resurrection.

Counting... . counting...

[Guest Peeves]

See this is what I was saying. We aren't Angola we aren't even comparable although that doesn't stop you from making snide remarks so don't get mad when the left says the right wants us to have the US system.

So, you are happy to be compared as in the same company of Angola, Cuba, North Korea, but certainly not with the USA?

[noahbody]

He wrote a whole editorial politicizing Health care. Just because you agree with his opinion does not make it different in anyway. I agree with Jack Deal with it.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/2018-the-new-health-care/article1852490/

You look dumb.

Having an opinion on an issue isn't politicizing it.

[punked]

So, you are happy to be compared as in the same company of Angola, Cuba, North Korea, but certainly not with the USA?

I think that is a pretty stupid argument for healthcare. Think of the countries we might be compared with? Seriously? So we should never do anything a poor country does? That is the extent. I can't believe you are trying to justify that argument as a valid one.

Know what else Cuba and the US did differently Iraq. You think we should be in Iraq right now?

[cybercoma]

This is probably what you mean.

What a pile of crap. We don't allow people to pay directly for healthcare, yet they can pay directly for private rooms, prescription drugs and a slew of other things. Nonetheless, that's not my beef. You quote/link implies that Canada is like North Korea or Cuba. The criticism of those countries isn't that they can't pay directly for healthcare. It's pure hyperbole to suggest that Canada is anything like those countries. How ridiculous.

[punked]

Having an opinion on an issue isn't politicizing it.

He envisions an alternate history where the streets a paved with gold all because we changed our healthcare with out one real argument for or against it. You don't think that is politicizing? Seriously. Step outside of your opinions and politics read that article and tell it is different from anything Jack has ever done ok?

[Guest American Woman]

That is from 11 years ago and before the new healthcare accord you know that right? You can post some studies from the 1950s if you want to Derek.

It's the latest - and last - list produced by WHO. Do you honestly think your health care system is in better shape now that it was in 2000?

[punked]

It's the latest - and last - list produced by WHO. Do you honestly think your health care system is in better shape now that it was in 2000?

Yes I do. In fact I know for a fact it is. Except for things like Drug costs which inflate the cost of Canadian medical costs by huge amounts it is also one of the few private parts of the system.

[cybercoma]

I think a lot of people are confused about Canada's healthcare. It's not entirely public.

United States

Finance: Private

Delivery: Private

England

Finance: Public

Delivery: Public

Canada

Finance: Public

Delivery: Private

Most hospitals and doctors are not state run and employed in Canada. Those that would compare Canada to communist states have absolutely no idea how our healthcare system actually works. England is closer to healthcare in those Communist nations than Canada is. We have a single-payer system which is different from an entirely public system. Let's get that straight first, if we're going to have any kind of discussion about this.

[Guest Derek L]

They don't exist people like you said things like that are a waste of tax dollars.

Huh? Not sure what you’re talking about, “people like me”, prefer seeing results on investment, be it school ranking in the province or Healthcare……..So, I guess you’ve no proof that we’ve drastically improved in ten years time (Or have gotten worse)……I’ll stick with the WHO rankings as a base until newer ones are released.

[Guest American Woman]

Yes I do. In fact I know for a fact it is. Except for things like Drug costs which inflate the cost of Canadian medical costs by huge amounts it is also one of the few private parts of the system.

If you know for a fact, I assume you can link me to a source confirming it - I'd be interested in seeing how wait times have changed, how there's less Canadians being sent to the U.S. for care because the Canadian system can't provide it, etc.

[Guest Derek L]

If you know for a fact, I assume you can link me to a source confirming it - I'd be interested in seeing how wait times have changed, how there's less Canadians being sent to the U.S. for care because the Canadian system can't provide it, etc.

I'll second that

[punked]

Huh? Not sure what you’re talking about, “people like me”, prefer seeing results on investment, be it school ranking in the province or Healthcare……..So, I guess you’ve no proof that we’ve drastically improved in ten years time (Or have gotten worse)……I’ll stick with the WHO rankings as a base until newer ones are released.

New ones wont be released because studies which Rank countries against one another are according to people like yourself a waste of the tax dollars we give to the WHO. Want prof? Long form census.

[noahbody]

No but from where we are you can't say the Conservatives don't want to move us closer to a US style.

Of course you can say that. We're not moving any closer to a private only system. We may be moving closer to some European models, but why shouldn't we? With the boomers coming of age we need to evolve our system.

[cybercoma]

If you know for a fact, I assume you can link me to a source confirming it - I'd be interested in seeing how wait times have changed, how there's less Canadians being sent to the U.S. for care because the Canadian system can't provide it, etc.

People go to the United States because they don't want to wait in line. Anyone with a critical illness that needs immediate attention gets it and they get it before others who may be uncomfortable, but aren't in immediate need of attention. The only time I've seen people sent to the United States for care that couldn't be had in Canada is when they either have such a rare disease that the ONLY specialists in the world are at Universities and hospitals somewhere in the United States or an American hospital is closer and any delay in care would result in further harm or death. For instance, people that live in Windsor and have a serious heart problem may find themselves sent to hospitals in SE Michigan, not because they can't find care in Toronto or London, but because it's quicker to send them to the US when timing is crucial.

[Guest Derek L]

New ones wont be released because studies which Rank countries against one another are according to people like yourself a waste of the tax dollars we give to the WHO. Want prof? Long form census.

Thats weak........The census was only changed recently..........You still have no proof I suppose......What about something from the middle of the decade?

You've stated that you know it's got better.........prove it!!!!

[Guest American Woman]

People go to the United States because they don't want to wait in line. Anyone with a critical illness that needs immediate attention gets it and they get it before others who may be uncomfortable, but aren't in immediate need of attention.

I wasn't talking about people who "go" to the United States for care, I was referring to people who are sent to the United States for care. But "not wanting to wait in line" and be forced to take more time off of work doesn't exactly speak well for the system. That's why I'd like a source confirming that the health care system is in better shape now than it was in 2000 when that list was compiled.

The only time I've seen people sent to the United States for care that couldn't be had in Canada is when they either have such a rare disease that the ONLY specialists in the world are at Universities and hospitals somewhere in the United States or an American hospital is closer and any delay in care would result in further harm or death. For instance, people that live in Windsor and have a serious heart problem may find themselves sent to hospitals in SE Michigan, not because they can't find care in Toronto or London, but because it's quicker to send them to the US when timing is crucial.

If people living in Windsor have to cross the border into the United States because an American hospital "is closer," I have to assume that Windsor can't provide the care. Why is that? Again, to me that speaks of a problem in your system. Windsor isn't exactly a small, rural town ..... if going through customs to get care in the United States because of the "fear of further harm or death," I'd say that pretty much confirms what I've said.

Furthermore, if treatments can be had in the U.S. that can't be had in Canada, that speaks of a problem, too. And I've also read of babies and pregnant women being sent to the U.S. for lack of beds/incubators - ie: care - in Canada.

Edited August 28, 2011 by American Woman

[punked]

Thats weak........The census was only changed recently..........You still have no proof I suppose......What about something from the middle of the decade?

You've stated that you know it's got better.........prove it!!!!

What do you want? It depends on what you value in a Health care system. You could tell me Canada doesn't get a bang for its buck then cite some study showing how we pay more then most countries. I would come back and point out that when it comes to basic healthcare we are on the same level as almost any country you point out but as soon as a study adds Drugs in it drives our cost through the roof which is a PRIVATE part of our system. I could point out that our average Life expectancy is among the highest in the world and you could point out the infant mortality rate is higher then many of those countries I point to. Which isn't wrong but most of those infant deaths come in the North where everything is harder Japan doesn't have deal with that.

It goes on and on. Fact is making our system private isn't going to help our infant mortality rate because those deaths are a access problem.

Fact is Canada needs to compete against Canada to make its health care better because Japan doesn't have the same problems, population, or geography we have.

[cybercoma]

Windsor has a population of 200,000 people. Is it really surprising that they wouldn't have the same medical care available there than the Detroit Metropolitan area which has a million people? If it's going to take 2 hours to get to London or 20 minutes to get to Henry Ford and someone is dying, why would they send them to London? You're just being ridiculous. It's a matter of practicality.

[cybercoma]

It goes on and on. Fact is making our system private isn't going to help our infant mortality rate because those deaths are a access problem.

Since it's an access problem, it would actually make it worse.

[punked]

Since it's an access problem, it would actually make it worse.

See that is the thing. People look at raw numbers and say "See look France has a better model because blah blah blah blah" Yet in France you can drive from anywhere in the country to the Capital in 3 hours, in many Canadian cities it takes that long to get to the nearest airport. That is part of the life that comes with living in a country that has more deep per square km then people.

[Guest Derek L]

What do you want? It depends on what you value in a Health care system. You could tell me Canada doesn't get a bang for its buck then cite some study showing how we pay more then most countries. I would come back and point out that when it comes to basic healthcare we are on the same level as almost any country you point out but as soon as a study adds Drugs in it drives our cost through the roof which is a PRIVATE part of our system. I could point out that our average Life expectancy is among the highest in the world and you could point out the infant mortality rate is higher then many of those countries I point to. Which isn't wrong but most of those infant deaths come in the North where everything is harder Japan doesn't have deal with that.

It goes on and on. Fact is making our system private isn't going to help our infant mortality rate because those deaths are a access problem.

Fact is Canada needs to compete against Canada to make its health care better because Japan doesn't have the same problems, population, or geography we have.

For the sake of argument, I’ll assume all of what you said is true. What got us the 30th spot rank 10 years ago? What has changed since? You mentioned above that things have improved here, what would those be?

[punked]

For the sake of argument, I’ll assume all of what you said is true. What got us the 30th spot rank 10 years ago? What has changed since? You mentioned above that things have improved here, what would those be?

A lot o stuff has happened in the last 11 years in Canadian healthcare which has improved the situation. 2004 Health Transfers were made to be independent transfers from the Feds to the provinces and the numbers of dollars and percentage of those dollars went up for the first time in around 15 years. Two separate Government reports which looked what was wrong with our system came out around the same time and many of the recommendations (not all) were implemented. We stopped looking at the access problem as a Doctor problem and started looking at it as an access problem for many rural communities. Sending in nurses and other health care professionals which have good impacts on towns of small size. We have implemented technology to give access to those who never had it before. Our numbers of doctors as a percentage of population has also gone up, and wait times have, if you can believe it, in most provinces gone down.

Seriously people need to stop acting like it is the year 2000 which BTW was one of the worse years for our system. 2000 is when our system started to crumble under its own wait and when it started to change for the better.

[bush_cheney2004]

Windsor has a population of 200,000 people. Is it really surprising that they wouldn't have the same medical care available there than the Detroit Metropolitan area which has a million people? If it's going to take 2 hours to get to London or 20 minutes to get to Henry Ford and someone is dying, why would they send them to London? You're just being ridiculous. It's a matter of practicality.

Practicality? It is more like an established policy to take advantage of the American for-profit system's excess capacity while curtailing investment in domestic facilities and staffing. The stories of neo-natal care shortages in several provinces are well documented, with families being sent to Seattle or Buffalo because beds are in short supply. Several provinces have standing contracts with US providers. We have been over this many times before.

[cybercoma]

You're assuming people are actually familiar with the Romanow Report and the changes made to social policy in the last decade.