Too many cops?

[Argus]

I don't disagree with you Argus. What I'd like to see is police being used to arrest real criminals. That includes people who break into homes to steal a TV, or steal your bike from the backyard.

In a sane, efficient system, most minor crimes up to and including basic muggings and assaults would be dealt with by a magistrate within a matter of hours of arrest. The offender would either admit his guilt and get his sentence or be given a couple of days (at most) to prepare for a hearing. Something like 90% of all cases are dealt with by plea bargains anyway. Why shouldn't a judge, or perhaps a troika of judges be able to examine the arrestee, the facts, and any mitigating circumstances, and then hand out a nearly immediate sentence in uncomplicated cases? Notice how in the London Riots case many offenders were sentenced by magistrates within days of arrest. And in at least one case I'm aware of, that case was then greatly reduced on appeal within a week.

Why can't our system work like that?

[CitizenX]

No laws = No Crime…………In Communist Russia, crime solve police

In Communist Russia, crime solve police. I don't even know what this means?

[CitizenX]

In a sane, efficient system, most minor crimes up to and including basic muggings and assaults would be dealt with by a magistrate within a matter of hours of arrest. The offender would either admit his guilt and get his sentence or be given a couple of days (at most) to prepare for a hearing. Something like 90% of all cases are dealt with by plea bargains anyway. Why shouldn't a judge, or perhaps a troika of judges be able to examine the arrestee, the facts, and any mitigating circumstances, and then hand out a nearly immediate sentence in uncomplicated cases? Notice how in the London Riots case many offenders were sentenced by magistrates within days of arrest. And in at least one case I'm aware of, that case was then greatly reduced on appeal within a week.

Why can't our system work like that?

Yaa look at the BC rioters, not one arrest yet. You've got video of these idiots committing the crime and nothing????

If I may put on my tin foil hat for a moment. Maybe lawyers wouldn't make as much money if the legal system were more efficient? Law is big business.

[William Ashley]

By the nature of their job, there are more available policing "units" than there are firefighting "units".

And while the chance of 10 fires happening at one time is low, you still want to maximize response time, something that will not happen if your local fire team is out of place and a truck must respond from a station located further away.

Segway, its not like you need the whole firetruck at one light.

Although there are other options like PORTABLE TRAFFIC DIRECTION ROBOTS/LIGHTS! They have bomb disposal so why not "bomb disposal/ traffic mashups, what are the chances of a bomb and need for traffic direction at the same time. So even if not both, it is a technological response to "low priority needs.

Just place in roadway and it will say when to GO. Or "remote" like cops can direct it while at the station, or firefighters.. or here is an idea, how about whoever is available. Such as stay at home moms with remote robot portable placed systems.

Makes no sense...

"You were just arrested for shooting someone. But since I can't fit you on my Segway I'll just let you go".

You can call to have someone picked up. Shooting someone is a little different then someone being found with a smoking a joint. You don't need to hold someone for 60 days for court appearance for smoking a joint.

Or "talking to someone." Sure it may be rational to hold people until showcause for serious dangerous offences such as indictable offences, however summary charges, and "fines" are just ludicrous. Also arresting people "for questioning" is actually sort of illegal.

Emergency responders have to plan for worst case scenarios.

Yeah while it would make sense to train cops to be firefighters and paramedics and vice versa if you are going to have so many of them. I don't like the idea of that much money to "police", it would be more rational if it was for "all purpose" first response training.. the type of thing I would like to see with the military especially for "career officers. Who are there for years, their training and use should be expanded to rationalize their salary increases.

Edited August 27, 2011 by William Ashley

[William Ashley]

By the nature of their job, there are more available policing "units" than there are firefighting "units".

And while the chance of 10 fires happening at one time is low, you still want to maximize response time, something that will not happen if your local fire team is out of place and a truck must respond from a station located further away.

Segway, its not like you need the whole firetruck at one light.

Although there are other "responses" like PORTABLE TRAFFIC DIRECTION ROBOTS/LIGHTS!

Just place in roadway and it will say when to GO. Or "remote" like cops can direct it while at the station, or firefighters.. or here an idea, how about whoever is available. Such as stay at home moms with remote robot portable placed systems.

Makes no sense...

"You were just arrested for shooting someone. But since I can't fit you on my Segway I'll just let you go".

You can call to have someone picked up. Shooting someone is a little different then someone being found with a smoking a joint.

Or "talking to someone." Sure it may be rational to hold people until showcause for serious dangerous offences such as indictable offences, however summary charges, and "fines" are just ludicrous. Also arresting people "for questioning" is actually sort of illegal.

Emergency responders have to plan for worst case scenarios.

Yeah while it would make sense to train cops to be firefighters and paramedics and vice versa if you are going to have so many of them. I don't like the idea of that much money to "police", it would be more rational if it was for "all purpose" first response training.. the type of thing I would like to see with the military especially for "career officers. Who are there for years, their training and use should be expanded to rationalize their salary increases.

----

The idea of jailing people who have not been convicted is incredibly problematic. The idea of imposing bail conditions for "$500" just so a monetary figure is there, is very stupid. It is having a bail set just to have a bail set, not based on the circumstances. In this instance it amounted to over 60 days of holdings, transport of over 1000KM of travel and meals - all for a case where the case was withdrawn. This with many other implications, not to mention tying up the court system. Meanwhile there are "other people" - their cases delayed, them being held without being convicted, and other issues and abuses within the system.

This is at the same time there is a remote court system via IDSN.. and yet it isn't used, people are still transported back and forth for 5 and 10 second appearances, it is is utterly offensive to impose this system on "accused" people.

It is an utterly disgusting system that has only filled me with a seed of rage and disgust.

More cops doesn't work because the ones out there arn't doing their jobs (I'm sure many people living under laws they don't agree with won't make too loud a voice on that issue - except to hen peck when it matters to them), we don't need more people to f it up. Use the military bring them home let them combat organized crime (under "a reasonable and required public safety code that doesn't mix culture with needs), and leave it to people to lay informations for minor offenses. - let the prosecutors call in the "detectives" to investigate if an information is laid so the crown prosecutor can "help build a case" before throwing people in jail for the stage show that awaits - that is based on false police statements and forced witness statements that are purgered under threat of penalty for not helping out the cop win the case.

There are more than enough cops. Thing is though we will always have more cops because the population is going up. It is an occupational logic, 10 to 1 ratio etc.. for a "working occupation - aka law enforcement.

The system is utterly useless for what it was intended for though - upholding 'law'. Its an armed professional lobby.

The system is designed to be abusive, not correct "breach of the law". Laws arn't designed to heal society or breaches either, they build on a system that use to kill the indicted, now they just throw them in jail to waste years of their life before letting them back in.

It is a total waste of money. We need technology not cops.

Its not going to change anytime soon.

Anyone here have a cop help them out?

It is more like 500 to 1 though or 150 to 1 not 10 to 1 like the German Occupational forces, or Iraq occupational forces.

CF numbers seem to be about 1 to 300.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20071116/statscan_police_07116/

I can only relate my own experiences. I'm sure others have had different experiences, I just havn't heard about them.

Since 2007 the report above police strenght has grown from 150 per 100,000 to over 200 per 100,000 or a 133% increase over 3 years.

The population increased say 6% while the police strength has increased 33%

This at the same time the CF has increased in personnel size??

Although while trying to find these numbers I found the CIA factbook comment under Canada military to be hilarious

Canada Command (homeland security) (2011)

They are calling Canada Command "homeland security" this is both disturbing and funny.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html

This is the line I find really suprising

"1,000 regular personnel is about $150 million"

This would mean that it is costing about $150,000 for each solider.

The logic in these costs, between policing, military and firefighting for instance don't fully equate for me. You don't need to buy all the equipment year in year out do you?

How is the spread over $75,000 between a cop and a soilder.. where is that $75,000 represented.

The numbers seem to be headed up....

where is DND finding the 5% department reduction Right right civillian staffing.

Are the RCMP cutting staff by 5% too?

Edited August 27, 2011 by William Ashley

[William Ashley]

In Communist Russia, crime solve police. I don't even know what this means?

It is common net jargon among some forums online :nervous: or rather :apprehensive:

example

In Russia people don't smoke, smoke does people.

See Russia reversal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Smirnoff

In Russia I don't explain smirnoff, smirnoff explain me.

Here are some others listed on Wiki

In America, you watch television.

In Soviet Russia, television watch you!

In America, you break law.

In Soviet Russia, law break you!

In America, you drive car.

In Soviet Russia, car drive you!

In America, you dodge bullet.

In Soviet Russia bullet dodge you.

In America, you listen to radio.

In Soviet Russia, radio listen to you!

In America, your job determines your marks.

In Soviet Russia, Marx determine your job!

In America, you assassinate president.

In Soviet Russia, president assassinate you!

In America, you throw party.

In Soviet Russia, party throw you!

In America, you watch Big Brother.

In Soviet Russia, Big Brother watch you!

-----

Oh and Hi to the SS folk reading this.. didn't realize there was an assassinate president line in the jokes.

Edited August 28, 2011 by William Ashley

[CitizenX]

Thank you for clearing this up William Ashley.

[Sir Bandelot]

Oh and Hi to the SS folk reading this.. didn't realize there was an assassinate president line in the jokes.

And what SS folks would that be?

---

In US, web site reads you!

Google map, looks at you!

Cell phone, listens you!

Bank, robs you!

[Saipan]

Alright, the bike, maybe. You did call the cops then, right?

Slashed tire, you wrote it yourself. Petty vandalism.

Your friend stole a few VHS tapes? Sounds like the gateway to hell, for sure.

It does. Hell to live in a neighbourhood like that. Things have to be nailed down AND guarded.

Murderer often start with "only" bothering cats because they are easy target.

Wouldn't it be nice if shoplifter got ten lashes in front of the store he stole from? Guarantee he'll keep his nose clean.

[Saipan]

Meanwhile in others, like personal pot possession (as raised in the OP), we're wasting too much time and money on it.

Yes, we should waste it on long gun registration cause hunters cause car accidents.

[bloodyminded]

Wouldn't it be nice if shoplifter got ten lashes in front of the store he stole from? Guarantee he'll keep his nose clean.

"Nice" for the sense of moral sanctimony belonging to the knuckledragging, reactionary statists. But that's about it.

[g_bambino]

"Nice" for the sense of moral sanctimony belonging to the knuckledragging, reactionary statists.

That pretty well sums up Saipan.

[Saipan]

"Nice" for the sense of moral sanctimony belonging to the knuckledragging, reactionary statists. But that's about it.

As oppose to hug-a-thug liberal

[bloodyminded]

As oppose to hug-a-thug liberal

"Hug-a-thug liberal" is meaningless; "reactionary statist" is all too real, and is the fundamental underpinning of every tyranny, left and right, ever, without exception.

[Sir Bandelot]

It does. Hell to live in a neighbourhood like that. Things have to be nailed down AND guarded.

Murderer often start with "only" bothering cats because they are easy target.

Wouldn't it be nice if shoplifter got ten lashes in front of the store he stole from? Guarantee he'll keep his nose clean.

Ten lashes, no. That sounds a bit like Saudi Arabia.

[Saipan]

"Hug-a-thug liberal" is meaningless; "reactionary statist" is all too real, and is the fundamental underpinning of every tyranny, left and right, ever, without exception.

Wonder if Fidel Castro knows he's a reactionary statist

[Bonam]

"Nice" for the sense of moral sanctimony belonging to the knuckledragging, reactionary statists. But that's about it.

I dunno, I don't think a swift application of non-permanently damaging physical punishment (after guilt has been proven) for crimes of that nature would actually be that monstrous, unjust, or cruel. I dunno about you, but I'd rather endure a few minutes of pain and humiliation than waste a few weeks or a month in jail, for example. It could also save considerable resources and costs.

[dre]

I dunno, I don't think a swift application of non-permanently damaging physical punishment (after guilt has been proven) for crimes of that nature would actually be that monstrous, unjust, or cruel. I dunno about you, but I'd rather endure a few minutes of pain and humiliation than waste a few weeks or a month in jail, for example. It could also save considerable resources and costs.

Well it wont save costs. It would add a whole new vertical to the justice system around reforming the entire process to support it, and adding a whole new bureaucracy around its use. It would also do nothing to protect the public from criminals. What we do now makes about the most sense. We have tried just about everything in the last few hundred years and this has gotten us the best results.

[bjre]

We knows only about 75,126 arrests made because of Cannabis.

Assume the population is 30 million, then the arrest rate is 75 / 30000 = 0.25%

That is one in every 400 Canadians arrested in a year because of cannabis.

Who knows how many overall arrests made by cops each year?

Edited August 30, 2011 by bjre

[bloodyminded]

Wonder if Fidel Castro knows he's a reactionary statist

Whether he knows it or not doesn't change the fact.

[bloodyminded]

I dunno, I don't think a swift application of non-permanently damaging physical punishment (after guilt has been proven) for crimes of that nature would actually be that monstrous, unjust, or cruel. I dunno about you, but I'd rather endure a few minutes of pain and humiliation than waste a few weeks or a month in jail, for example. It could also save considerable resources and costs.

I don't like the idea of corporal punishment--especially public.

Not least because it's extreme statism, of a type that no libertarian worth his or her salt would even consider.

And remember the context: we're talking shoplifters, here.

[Saipan]

Ten lashes, no. That sounds a bit like Saudi Arabia.

OK 15 then.

In Saudi Arabia they just cut your head off.

You can be sure Michael Faye won't be vandalizing any cars after getting ten lashes.

[Saipan]

Well it wont save costs.

It would and a LOT. After ten or so lashes one goes back to work. No any load on taxpayers.

It would add a whole new vertical to the justice system around reforming the entire process to support it, and adding a whole new bureaucracy around its use.

No, we won't let any liberal hug-a-thug near it.

It would also do nothing to protect the public from criminals.

So how do you explain MUCH lower crime before we done away with capital punishment??? DESPITE the relatively lax "gun control" then.

[bloodyminded]

It would and a LOT. After ten or so lashes one goes back to work. No any load on taxpayers.

Wrong. There has to be a process to determine guilt beyond a reasonable doubt...not the say-so of WalMart Security. There has to be discretionary judicial decisions regarding level and amount of punishment meted out.

These are all costs.

You can't just grab a suspected shoplifter and start beating the snot out of him. No matter how arousing you personally find such an event.

No, we won't let any liberal hug-a-thug near it.

Who is "we"? You think we should enact laws stating "no liberalism allowed"?

Then you're in the wrong part of the world. You would find a fascist state much more to your liking.

[William Ashley]

It does. Hell to live in a neighbourhood like that. Things have to be nailed down AND guarded.

Murderer often start with "only" bothering cats because they are easy target.

Wouldn't it be nice if shoplifter got ten lashes in front of the store he stole from? Guarantee he'll keep his nose clean.

Hands lashes do nothing. The more you beat people up the more psychotic they become or the potential to become psychotic, eventually you can start to feel pain as nothing but a sensation not a reaction or hurt - pain becomes rage and taunt instead of unsought or destabilizing, inciting the very soul to lash out against the corrupter of once easier times. First you have a shoplifter then you have a person who is desensitized to pain, and tries ever harder not to get caught. Dumb criminals get caught, fearful criminals become planners. Nothing is worse than a criminal who thinks, and is incited.

What that does is turn a selfish or ignorant person into a rebellious or destructive person.

Health care costs would skyrocket.

I feel like chopping the balls off the person that took my used gym clothes and towel. (if it wasn't thrown out by custodial)

Imagine how many surgical reattachment surgeries there would be with Taliban rule in Canada.

Bear in mind Tibet had that same law before the Chinese took over..

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Taliban-cut-off-man-s-hand-for-theft/Article1-646218.aspx

http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/tag/arm-reattachment/

Edited August 30, 2011 by William Ashley