American seeks Canandian refuge

[bush_cheney2004]

...IOW, a lot of the attraction is based on nothing more than the fact that more people live in the US.

And why would that be...some will tell me it's the "weather".

Hence my refrain.....312,000,000 vs. 34,000,000.

There are many reasons for the difference.

[dre]

I would agree as well. The only immigrants we should accept are those that can be reasonably expected to provide a net positive contribution to society.

On balance immigrants to Canada do. Over all we get pretty damn good immigrants here, and they are on average more skilled than they were 20 years ago. These immigrants account for the vast majority of growth in Canadas workforce since 1990, and despite the fact that setting up shop in a brand new country where you dont know anyone is a big challenge for pretty much anyone, the Employment Rate for immigrants is only about 3% lower than it is for people born here. Second generation immigrants fare even better and are some of our most productive members of society... more likely to own their own home for example, than a Canadian born citizen.

[Guest American Woman]

Yeah its just common sense. Access to healthcare is definately one of the things I would consider if I was moving to another country.

"One of the things" one would consider is quite different from "the primary reason" for making a move.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yeah its just common sense. Access to healthcare is definately one of the things I would consider if I was moving to another country.

The larger point remains irrespective of "free" healthcare. The Canadians who I have worked with in the IT industry are seeking opportunity not otherwise available in Canada (some like to keep their provincial health care as a "birthright" if possible, even when covered by BCBS in the "States"). But they didn't come south for what the U.S. government could do for them beyond granting permanent resident status (green card).

[dre]

"One of the things" one would consider is quite different from "the primary reason" for making a move.

Yeah. And like I said, he'd get free healthcare in the US as well anyways, if his income was low or nil.

[TimG]

There are many reasons for the difference.

Sure. But the on of main reasons is the US has more land which is suitable for large population centers. The amount of arable land in the US is 4 times that of Canada and that does not take into account the higher productivity of US land due to a better climate. Edited August 14, 2011 by TimG

[dre]

The larger point remains irrespective of "free" healthcare. The Canadians who I have worked with in the IT industry are seeking opportunity not otherwise available in Canada (some like to keep their provincial health care as a "birthright" if possible, even when covered by BCBS in the "States"). But they didn't come south for what the U.S. government could do for them beyond granting permanent resident status (green card).

Yeah, people go where the money and wages are I agree. Other concerns are normally secondary.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure. But the on of main reasons is the US has more land which is suitable for large population centers. The amount of arable land in the US is 4 times that of Canada and that does not take into account the higher productivity of US land due to a better climate.

OK...but the numbers still don't work....the US population is nearly one order of magnitude larger. It has been estimated that MILLIONS of Canadians have emigrated to the US over the past 200 years, while the opposite is not the case.

[dre]

Sure. But the on of main reasons is the US has more land which is suitable for large population centers. The amount of arable land in the US is 4 times that of Canada and that does not take into account the higher productivity of US land due to a better climate.

No, theres an absolute shitload of good realestate in Canada thats very suitable for large population centers and small. We have room for a lot more people.

Climage IS an issue, but opportunity has always been a huge draw as well for the US. People come to the US for jobs.

The US has a third world country as its neigbor as well where the average wage is only a couple of dollars per hour US$. This generates a HUGE ammount of immigration, both legal and illegal. They have about as many mexican immigrants as the entire Canadian population.

[TimG]

OK...but the numbers still don't work....the US population is nearly one order of magnitude larger. It has been estimated that MILLIONS of Canadians have emigrated to the US over the past 200 years, while the opposite is not the case.

4 times arable land gave the US a population advantage. Once the population advantage exists it becomes self-perpetuating when all other factors are equal. Look at how many people have moved from NY to Kansas City vs the reverse. Why would expect the population movements from the relatively less populated Canada to be any different? Edited August 14, 2011 by TimG

[TimG]

No, theres an absolute shitload of good realestate in Canada thats very suitable for large population centers and small. We have room for a lot more people.

The numbers I quoted were for arable land. Whatever we have the US has 4 times more plus a better climate.

And we don't have room for that many more people without completely redesigning our economy. As it stands we spread the wealth from resource income over a relatively small number of people. As we increased the population the 'resource effect' decreases and must be made up some other way.

It is possible, but increasing population is a risk that could leave us a lot poorer because of how we have positioned our economy in the global marketplace.

Edited August 14, 2011 by TimG

[bush_cheney2004]

Look at how many people have moved from NY to Kansas City vs the reverse. Why would expect the population movements from the relatively less populated Canada to be any different?

I don't know why you have singled out KC...the population of KC has nearly doubled since 1960.

http://www.censusscope.org/us/m3760/chart_popl.html

[dre]

OK...but the numbers still don't work....the US population is nearly one order of magnitude larger. It has been estimated that MILLIONS of Canadians have emigrated to the US over the past 200 years, while the opposite is not the case.

The US had about 10 times the population even prior to them becoming a nation. Because the economy back in those days was almost completely agrarian and like Tim points out theres more good farmland in the US.

For example... in 1850 there were already 23 million Americans, and under 3 million Canadians.

Edited August 14, 2011 by dre

[TimG]

I don't know why you have singled out KC...the population of KC has nearly doubled since 1960.

So has the population of Canada. I single out KC to illustrate the draw that population centers have. I choose it as an example because it did not face a major industry collapse like Detroit - i.e. the economy of KC has been doing ok. It just does not draw the same level of immigration that the larger centers do.

[bush_cheney2004]

....The US has a third world country as its neigbor as well where the average wage is only a couple of dollars per hour US$. This generates a HUGE ammount of immigration, both legal and illegal. They have about as many mexican immigrants as the entire Canadian population.

It doesn't stop there....some of the emigres to Canada are just using the opportunity as a stepping stone to the USA. I suspect that the very idea of dual citizenship is far more appealing to Canadians than Americans.

[bush_cheney2004]

The US had about 10 times the population even prior to them becoming a nation. Because the economy back in those days was almost completely agrarian and like Tim points out theres more good farmland in the US.

The US started as 13 small colonies, smaller than Upper/Lower Canada combined IIRC.

For example... in 1850 there were already 23 million Americans, and under 3 million Canadians.

Indeed, and some of these had fled north in prior generations.

[Sir Bandelot]

OK...but the numbers still don't work....the US population is nearly one order of magnitude larger. It has been estimated that MILLIONS of Canadians have emigrated to the US over the past 200 years, while the opposite is not the case.

So what? Let them go where they want. Likely that those who want to "make it big" think it's easier to do that in the US, while those who stay are generally content with what they already have.

[Bonam]

I'm not sure why a higher population is something to brag about. China and India have more people than the US, it doesn't mean they are better places to live than the US though. A lower population density (as Canada has) just means more room for future growth.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Bonam

[TimG]

The US started as 13 small colonies, smaller than Upper/Lower Canada combined IIRC.

There were 2.5 million in 13 colonies at independence. Upper and Lower Canada + Martimes has less that 200,000 people at the time. Edited August 14, 2011 by TimG

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm not sure why a higher population is something to brag about. China and India have more people than the US, it doesn't mean they are better places to live than the US though.

Ahhh, but here is the kicker....emigration from China and India to the US is also higher. Clearly there is a Laffer Curve point of advantage. A population next to zero is problematic too.

[bush_cheney2004]

There were 3 million in 13 colonies at independence. Upper and Lower Canada + Martimes has less that 200,000 people at the time.

Agreed, and I suspect that is true for the very same reasons as today. The Americans were not limited by the BNA Act after 1776.

[bush_cheney2004]

So what? Let them go where they want. Likely that those who want to "make it big" think it's easier to do that in the US, while those who stay are generally content with what they already have.

If you mean peace, order, and lots of government services, sure. Fundamentally though, it is puzzling to reconcile bile aimed at America from some Canadians even as there family members and countrymen go south.

Edited August 14, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[TimG]

I'm not sure why a higher population is something to brag about.

You eventually reach a point of diminishing returns and Canada would reach that point long before it reached the US population. When you see per capita GDP experience year upon year declines then we have reached that point.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm not sure why a higher population is something to brag about. China and India have more people than the US, it doesn't mean they are better places to live than the US though. A lower population density (as Canada has) just means more room for future growth.

China and India don't have a high population due to immigration though, as the U.S. does. The population of the U.S. is as high as it is because of it's appeal to immigrants. As for a lower population density re: room for future growth, depends on the appeal/livability of the land in question. Canada's population for the most part is within 200 miles of the U.S. border, despite the large land mass. That says something about the situation.....

[dre]

China and India don't have a high population due to immigration though, as the U.S. does. The population of the U.S. is as high as it is because of it's appeal to immigrants. As for a lower population density re: room for future growth, depends on the appeal/livability of the land in question. Canada's population for the most part is within 200 miles of the U.S. border, despite the large land mass. That says something about the situation.....

The point is though that the ratio of 1:10 when comparing the population of Canada to that of the US has been around since before either nation even existed. Like I said the economy back then was completely agrarian farmers wanted moderate climates.

Since about 1800 though growth rate per capita of the two countries has been about the same.