eyeball Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) "lets get those pot smoking bad guys"ör those criminals who commit those unreported crimes!... What about all the people who are not reporting crime when they see it, when are we going to round them up? They seem to be causing as much trouble as anyone, by sending criminals the message that people don't care. I guess it takes a scofflaw to know one. Oop's I guess I just incriminated myself...oh well who the fook cares? Edited July 28, 2011 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
wyly Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Your single experience is rather irrelevent in light of national standards and statistics which show the majority of waits at emergency rooms exceed 6hrs. Yes, if you have chest pains or something similar you are moved to the head of the line. But that doesn't help you if you've merely got, say, a broken wrist, and have to wait for ten hours to see a doctor. one of many many experiences, when you come from a huge family like I do and have big family of your own like I do ER visits are common...a broken wrist is not critical you ain't gonna die from it... and not all "breaks" are the same, a simple fracture is no big deal(I had multiple fractures in my foot and never even went to the ER), multiple fractures are worse, bone sticking out through the skin get you in instantly...mrs wyly had multiple fractures in her leg ankle and was admitted immediately, stabilized and had surgery the next day...want to see a MD for an ouchie go to a walk in clinic, leave the ER for people who need it or be prepared to wait... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Scotty Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 one of many many experiences, when you come from a huge family like I do and have big family of your own like I do ER visits are common...a broken wrist is not critical you ain't gonna die from it... and not all "breaks" are the same, a simple fracture is no big deal(I had multiple fractures in my foot and never even went to the ER), multiple fractures are worse, bone sticking out through the skin get you in instantly...mrs wyly had multiple fractures in her leg ankle and was admitted immediately, stabilized and had surgery the next day... want to see a MD for an ouchie go to a walk in clinic, leave the ER for people who need it or be prepared to wait... You don't go to a walk-in clinic for a broken bone. They aren't equipped for x-rays or plastering. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
wyly Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 What about all the people who are not reporting crime when they see it, when are we going to round them up? They seem to be causing as much trouble as anyone, by sending criminals the message that people don't care. I guess it takes a scofflaw to know one. Oop's I guess I just incriminated myself...oh well who the fook cares? well ya but then if I report it(vandalisim or theft) the police take my statement, tell me to inform my insurance company and then my insurance rates go up...unless the police can catch someone in the act or in possesion there is no chance of conviction and that fact hasn't changed since I was a kid in the 60's... so I get mad for a few days then get over it, there is nothing that can be done... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 You don't go to a walk-in clinic for a broken bone. They aren't equipped for x-rays or plastering. oh really? mrs wyly broke her wrist back in the sixties MD set and plastered it in his office...I had minor surgery in a walk-in clinic two months ago to put an artery back in my foot and repair a lacerated tendon, I debated going to the ER but it was a half hour away and I needed to go to work asap...the MD that stitched me back together said there wasn't much they haven't done... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
eyeball Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 well ya but then if I report it(vandalisim or theft) the police take my statement, tell me to inform my insurance company and then my insurance rates go up...unless the police can catch someone in the act or in possesion there is no chance of conviction and that fact hasn't changed since I was a kid in the 60's... so I get mad for a few days then get over it, there is nothing that can be done... You could join the CPC and get even. I wonder if anyone has ever polled Canadians for party affiliation and rates of victimization (don't forget the unreported occasions) by criminals? That said, some people seem to think marijuana fumes wafting from across the way is almost like a case of bio-chemical terrorism. I saw a grow-op go down in my 'hood once and it was freaky how many people were in full Hazmat suits. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wild Bill Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 I was born after 1960 and I don't remember spending any real time waiting in emergency rooms until sometime in the mid 80s. Sorry Scotty but reliable authorities on this board have explained that what you remember is merely anecdotal. This means that if THEY remember it it's gospel but if you or I remember it it never really happened! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Wild Bill Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 well ya but then if I report it(vandalisim or theft) the police take my statement, tell me to inform my insurance company and then my insurance rates go up...unless the police can catch someone in the act or in possesion there is no chance of conviction and that fact hasn't changed since I was a kid in the 60's... so I get mad for a few days then get over it, there is nothing that can be done... Wyly, have you not been reading the posts? Your experiences are merely anecdotal and thus untrue. Meanwhile, you should move to Shwa's neighbourhood! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
dre Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 One could also make the point that the same crowd which wants government to solve all our problems and insists that throwing more and more money at any and all problems is the best solution is oddly acting like penny pinching conservatives on the issue of crime. It's funny, how none of you ever shows much similar concerns about any other programs or departments - except perhaps the military. But suddenly you're all tight fisted people who don't trust government to do the job right. Odd, that. Oh of course it is. Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, and thus hold criminals at fault of their behaviour. You lot on the Left are all weepy over the fate of poor, misunderstood outcasts who clearly only need some therapy and understanding to see the error of their ways. You lot on the Left are all weepy over the fate of poor, misunderstood outcasts who clearly only need some therapy and understanding to see the error of their ways. You can spout that retarded horseshit a 1000 times if you want it will still be bunk. And it has nothing to do with compassion for criminals. I just want the most bang for my buck. We need to keep crime rates low enough so that society functions smoothly and we need to spend no more than necessary. It's funny, how none of you ever shows much similar concerns about any other programs or departments - except perhaps the military. But suddenly you're all tight fisted people who don't trust government to do the job right Its not that I dont trust the government to handle criminal justice. I think historically they have done a pretty good job. I just dont see any reason at this time for an expensive or radical change of course. Crime rates seem to be receding... crime seems to be under control enough so that our society/economy is functioning smoothly. I dont see any compelling reason for a drastic change. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Sorry Scotty but reliable authorities on this board have explained that what you remember is merely anecdotal. This means that if THEY remember it it's gospel but if you or I remember it it never really happened! Personal anecdotes are interesting to kick around, but we cant make decisions based on them. For example... Iv been to the emergency room twice in the last 5 years, and both times I waited less than 20 minutes. Does that mean we dont have a problem with wait times? Obviously not. Thats my whole point. You need to collect the data and really look at it. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
wyly Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Wyly, have you not been reading the posts? Your experiences are merely anecdotal and thus untrue.anecdotes are good balance the "it was never this bad when I was young" bs...Meanwhile, you should move to Shwa's neighbourhood! shwa may have live in paradise but I live in the most sought after neighbourhood in calgary...but even here young men do what they've always done even when I was young, vandalize and steal...other than the drug house across the valley that got shut down there isn't a serious crime problem, just stupid kids acting stupid...... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 That said, some people seem to think marijuana fumes wafting from across the way is almost like a case of bio-chemical terrorism. I saw a grow-op go down in my 'hood once and it was freaky how many people were in full Hazmat suits. hazmats are probably for the potential mold problems, a bit paranoid IMO I doubt molds are as dangerous as they are made out to be... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) Personal anecdotes are interesting to kick around, but we cant make decisions based on them. For example... Iv been to the emergency room twice in the last 5 years, and both times I waited less than 20 minutes. Does that mean we dont have a problem with wait times? Obviously not. Thats my whole point. You need to collect the data and really look at it. agreed but we need to keep the "back in the old days things were much better" myth in check people tend to remember what suits their pov and ignore that which doesn't...wait times are there no doubt about that but we need to put it into perspective, when you're sick or hurt you're miserable and want to get out and go home, minutes in a waiting room seem like hours and hours are an eternity...but last time I was in the ER on the other side of those big doors you get a different perspective, the guy across from me had fallen of a building and was on a backboard, the guy next me was on deaths doorstep cardiac arrest was imminent according to the MD, so it shouldn't be a surprise that someone with a fractured wrist or some non life threatening complaint needs to wait... Edited July 28, 2011 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
bloodyminded Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 One could also make the point that the same crowd which wants government to solve all our problems and insists that throwing more and more money at any and all problems is the best solution is oddly acting like penny pinching conservatives on the issue of crime. Those who think that the government should solve all our problems are not in any way beset by partisan beliefs. Oh of course it is. Conservatives believe in personal responsibility We've all heard this bland assertion pushed on us as if it's demonstrable fact. I see no evidence for it. At all. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Shwa Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Obviously it wasn't a real quote, it was a joking paraphrase. Like I said, I paraphrased what that paragraph was really saying. It's not problem you're taking my mocking quote seriously,... And you don't have any problem with my mocking, right Bob? ...although I did seriously intend to distil that paragraph to its fundamental message - which was along the lines of opposing increased incarceration of "non-violent" criminals because of concerns of them getting embittered and disengranchised upon release... Really? What's your expertise Bob? The author put her credentials 'on the line,' where are yours? Oh, yeah. You have a blog. That's a ridiculous position to hold, by any standard. Not according to Corrections Canada: A Comparative Review of Suicide and Self-Injury Investigative Reports in a Canadian Federal Correctional Population How about the U of T Centre of Criminology? Criminological Highlights - Feb 2010 Incarcerating offenders who could be given non-custodialsanctions does not reduce the likelihood that they will commit further offences. In fact, incarceration may increase the probability of recidivism. First-time imprisonment of offenders increases the likelihoodthat they will re-offend. Oh, but what do they know, eh Bob? The U of T Centre of Criminology likely is operating outside of "any" standard too, what with the "ridiculous position" they hold with their research papers. Quote
Shwa Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Its not that I dont trust the government to handle criminal justice. I think historically they have done a pretty good job. I just dont see any reason at this time for an expensive or radical change of course. Crime rates seem to be receding... crime seems to be under control enough so that our society/economy is functioning smoothly. I dont see any compelling reason for a drastic change. And of course, there begs a question. Is it possible that our present concept of diversionary and alternative justice programs, the social and rehabilitation programs in prison, etc., are actually contributing to the falling rate of crime? Oh, can of worms for the lock-and-key crowd. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 28, 2011 Author Report Posted July 28, 2011 And it has nothing to do with compassion for criminals. I just want the most bang for my buck. What an odd thing to say. Of course it has to do with compassion to criminals. People that don't have compassion for other human beings are psychopathic animals. Criminals are still human beings deserving of dignity and respect. We don't torture criminals or subject them to inhumane practices because as a society we place value on the dignity of individuals, regardless of whether or not they are criminals. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people behind bars are not monsters like Paul Bernardo. And even if they were, there's absolutely no reason we should not have compassion for fellow human beings, as sick as they may be. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 28, 2011 Author Report Posted July 28, 2011 And you don't have any problem with my mocking, right Bob? Really? What's your expertise Bob? The author put her credentials 'on the line,' where are yours? Oh, yeah. You have a blog. Not according to Corrections Canada: A Comparative Review of Suicide and Self-Injury Investigative Reports in a Canadian Federal Correctional Population How about the U of T Centre of Criminology? Criminological Highlights - Feb 2010 Oh, but what do they know, eh Bob? The U of T Centre of Criminology likely is operating outside of "any" standard too, what with the "ridiculous position" they hold with their research papers. Didn't Jack Layton teach at U of T? They're nothing but a bunch of hug-a-thug socialists! [/sarcasm] Quote
bloodyminded Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 And you don't have any problem with my mocking, right Bob? Really? What's your expertise Bob? The author put her credentials 'on the line,' where are yours? Oh, yeah. You have a blog. Not according to Corrections Canada: A Comparative Review of Suicide and Self-Injury Investigative Reports in a Canadian Federal Correctional Population How about the U of T Centre of Criminology? Criminological Highlights - Feb 2010 Oh, but what do they know, eh Bob? The U of T Centre of Criminology likely is operating outside of "any" standard too, what with the "ridiculous position" they hold with their research papers. Well, that's the problem with deriding notions of "embittered" and "disenfranchised" (caricaturing them in the first place, to boot) as if we're talking about people's feelings rather than consequences. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
bloodyminded Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) What an odd thing to say. Of course it has to do with compassion to criminals. People that don't have compassion for other human beings are psychopathic animals. Criminals are still human beings deserving of dignity and respect. We don't torture criminals or subject them to inhumane practices because as a society we place value on the dignity of individuals, regardless of whether or not they are criminals. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people behind bars are not monsters like Paul Bernardo. And even if they were, there's absolutely no reason we should not have compassion for fellow human beings, as sick as they may be. I agree. "Criminals" as a catch-all has connotations; but one criminal is like another criminal mainly in that they have both been indicted for breaking a law. That's it. There's nothing magical about it, and certainly nothing unholy. The majority of criminals differ in no serious, substantive, human ways from the rest of the population. I think a lot of people view "the criminal" as wholly distinct from the rest of us, as society and as individuals; that they are a different species somehow, a completely different animal. This might be comforting for some people, but aside from a minority of truly dangerous folks, it is fallacious. Edited July 28, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Scotty Posted July 29, 2011 Report Posted July 29, 2011 That's it. There's nothing magical about it, and certainly nothing unholy. The majority of criminals differ in no serious, substantive, human ways from the rest of the population. Yeah they do. I'm sure any kind of statistical study would show wide variations between criminals and regular citizens in a lot of areas. But the principle area of concern is that criminals are those who are willing to hurt other people to enrich or just to amuse themselves. They have no problem robbing people, beating people, raping people, defrauding people, killing people, whatever, according to the degree of criminality and lack of empathy within them. Criminals tend to be very selfish people who don't care much about others. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
cybercoma Posted July 29, 2011 Author Report Posted July 29, 2011 Sounds like Wall Street to me, rather than the common perception of criminals. Quote
Wild Bill Posted July 29, 2011 Report Posted July 29, 2011 Sounds like Wall Street to me, rather than the common perception of criminals. Yeah, yeah. We know. Only the rich are criminals! Guilt or innocence is determined by the class you're in. This is usually where I insert a clip of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where Arthur is arguing politics with a bunch of leftwing peasants who are piling up mud but I'm just too tired at the moment. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
sammykp Posted July 29, 2011 Report Posted July 29, 2011 And more expensiveness. That awesomeness is pricey! Prison costs soar 86% in past five years: report Which begs the questions as to which insider will get the graft when all those prison building contracts get `tendered.' If there's less crime then why the cost of more prisons? Quote
Remiel Posted July 29, 2011 Report Posted July 29, 2011 Yeah they do. I'm sure any kind of statistical study would show wide variations between criminals and regular citizens in a lot of areas. But the principle area of concern is that criminals are those who are willing to hurt other people to enrich or just to amuse themselves. They have no problem robbing people, beating people, raping people, defrauding people, killing people, whatever, according to the degree of criminality and lack of empathy within them. Criminals tend to be very selfish people who don't care much about others. What an amazing description you have provided of many wealthy and powerful members of the investor class. Quote
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