WIP Posted July 9, 2011 Report Posted July 9, 2011 The trouble is there is NO trend in "bad weather". The data says twice as many record highs as record lows -- and you can't see that as a trend? When did we have GPS and diesel equipped ships that could make the passage in a few days? In the past it took months to cover the distance which invariable meant bumping into ice at the beginning or the end of your trip. Even with those caveats at least one ships did make it through in the 40s. Until very recently, there was too much ice, even in summer, for commercial shipping to try the Northwest Passage. I remember when a test run from Prudhoe Bay Alaska was made back in 1969 by the Manhattan -- a specially reinforced oil tanker, which made the passage with a couple of ice breakers. It was considered too risky back then, and wasn't commercially viable, so they built the Alaskan Pipeline to Valdez instead. Again, you are denying the obvious...like you're some kind of Baghdad Bob on the climate change issue: Posted by: JeffMasters, 3:42 PM GMT on July 08, 2011 Arctic sea ice in record retreat The summer melt season is in full swing in the Arctic, and sea ice there is in record retreat. Arctic sea ice is currently at its lowest extent on record for early July, according to estimates from the National Snow and Ice Data Center and University of Bremen. Satellites witness lowest Arctic ice coverage in history 14 September 2007 The area covered by sea ice in the Arctic has shrunk to its lowest level this week since satellite measurements began nearly 30 years ago, opening up the Northwest Passage – a long-sought short cut between Europe and Asia that has been historically impassable. In the mosaic image above, created from nearly 200 images acquired in early September 2007 by the Advanced Synthetic Aperture Radar (ASAR) instrument aboard ESA’s Envisat satellite, the dark gray colour represents the ice-free areas while green represents areas with sea ice. Leif Toudal Pedersen from the Danish National Space Centre said: "We have seen the ice-covered area drop to just around 3 million sq km which is about 1 million sq km less than the previous minima of 2005 and 2006. There has been a reduction of the ice cover over the last 10 years of about 100 000 sq km per year on average, so a drop of 1 million sq km in just one year is extreme. You have ZERO evidence that there is any connection between the recent weather and CO2. All you got are computer models. If you're denying that rising CO2 levels increase the amount of energy absorbed by the atmosphere and the oceans - which would increase the likelihood of more frequent severe storms, then you are denying the laws of physics. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Oleg Bach Posted July 9, 2011 Report Posted July 9, 2011 The data says twice as many record highs as record lows -- and you can't see that as a trend? Until very recently, there was too much ice, even in summer, for commercial shipping to try the Northwest Passage. I remember when a test run from Prudhoe Bay Alaska was made back in 1969 by the Manhattan -- a specially reinforced oil tanker, which made the passage with a couple of ice breakers. It was considered too risky back then, and wasn't commercially viable, so they built the Alaskan Pipeline to Valdez instead. Again, you are denying the obvious...like you're some kind of Baghdad Bob on the climate change issue: Posted by: JeffMasters, 3:42 PM GMT on July 08, 2011 Arctic sea ice in record retreat The summer melt season is in full swing in the Arctic, and sea ice there is in record retreat. Arctic sea ice is currently at its lowest extent on record for early July, according to estimates from the National Snow and Ice Data Center and University of Bremen. Satellites witness lowest Arctic ice coverage in history 14 September 2007 The area covered by sea ice in the Arctic has shrunk to its lowest level this week since satellite measurements began nearly 30 years ago, opening up the Northwest Passage – a long-sought short cut between Europe and Asia that has been historically impassable. In the mosaic image above, created from nearly 200 images acquired in early September 2007 by the Advanced Synthetic Aperture Radar (ASAR) instrument aboard ESA’s Envisat satellite, the dark gray colour represents the ice-free areas while green represents areas with sea ice. Leif Toudal Pedersen from the Danish National Space Centre said: "We have seen the ice-covered area drop to just around 3 million sq km which is about 1 million sq km less than the previous minima of 2005 and 2006. There has been a reduction of the ice cover over the last 10 years of about 100 000 sq km per year on average, so a drop of 1 million sq km in just one year is extreme. If you're denying that rising CO2 levels increase the amount of energy absorbed by the atmosphere and the oceans - which would increase the likelihood of more frequent severe storms, then you are denying the laws of physics. Common greed also denys the laws of physics. You can not continue to generate more extreme wealth for a few and not have more and more waste product from that generation. Those that deny do not want to clean up after themselves because responsible developement insists that you must not pollute and harm your lessors...Those that increase their wealth through the generation of waste on a massive scale - don't care about the future...this is their heaven and they are going to use it up because they can not take it with them. Quote
WIP Posted July 9, 2011 Report Posted July 9, 2011 You know what's really hilarious to me, the perception that Earth is so vast that our economy can grow as if it were infinite is based on the belief that if it can't, we're fucked. Ironic isn't it? Good luck with this! I've tried to raise this point we are heading towards hard limits imposed by the biosphere and the rapid decline of many natural resources. And all of the economic mumbo jumbo about how to restore economic growth keeps ignoring the fact that we are fast approaching limits to further growth. Either we stop population growth, cut back dramatically on energy use, and put an end to car culture and other heavy uses of energy and materials that are not going to be sustainable for more than a few decades....or it's total collapse, and the next generation goes back to the stone age! Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
WIP Posted July 9, 2011 Report Posted July 9, 2011 Your disgust and frustration is entirely ideological. Some of it borders on "Dale Gribble" style conspiracy theories. Only a few climate skeptics actually make money working on behalf of the oil companies! Most of them are in it for ideological reasons, because doing something about increased greenhouse gas levels requires international cooperation and government regulation....guess how libertarians and Ayn Rand fans take that news? Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Oleg Bach Posted July 9, 2011 Report Posted July 9, 2011 Only a few climate skeptics actually make money working on behalf of the oil companies! Most of them are in it for ideological reasons, because doing something about increased greenhouse gas levels requires international cooperation and government regulation....guess how libertarians and Ayn Rand fans take that news? The term climate skeptic should acutally be those that are doing well on the planet earth and don't want to face the reality other are not because of the damage they cause. Quote
Saipan Posted July 9, 2011 Report Posted July 9, 2011 How many SUVs were driven in the days ocean was this high? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/sampan/SuperStock_1990-4647.jpg Quote
neon Posted July 12, 2011 Report Posted July 12, 2011 Canada rattling the saber in the Arctic In August 2011 Canada is going to hold military exercise in the Arctic around Baffin and Ellesmere – the operation Nanook will be the biggest one in the modern history. Over a 1000 Canadian soldiers, a number of jetfighters and war vessels will take part in the operation to establish Canada’s permanent Arctic presence. I believe it’s too many for a military exercise. It looks like more a provocation and war preparation. Why it is so necessary to send so many troops and vehicles there if it always easier, cheaper and safer to sit down the table and start negotiations between all Arctic claimants? But no, Canada wants to show its military potential and endanger the peaceful and clean Arctic. What a greedy and reckless behavior. Maybe everyone should send there troops and start a new world war thanking Canada? Quote
Saipan Posted July 12, 2011 Report Posted July 12, 2011 I believe it’s too many for a military exercise. We don't even have "too many" in whole of Canada. For this size of country we have far too few. It looks like more a provocation and war preparation. Who are we "provoking" in Canada's North? Why it is so necessary to send so many troops and vehicles there FAR more important then sending them to Balkans or Somalia. This is CANADA. Quote
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