Is Harper going after the unions?

[Remiel]

……they’re living off taxpayers dollars, where as I can choose to boycott the products of GM, Wal-Mart & Research in motion……..

Are you so sure about that? Have you prevented your elected government from buying vehicles from GM, Blackberrys from RIM, and God knows what from Wal-Mart lately?

[fellowtraveller]

Which supports the idea that should unions go, so shall the benefits of one including wages and working conditions

Nonsense. Personal safety on worksites is regulated by law in every province in Canada, not by collective agreements.

And the notion that unions ensure a good wage for everybody is purest fantasy. What ensures a good wage is having marketable skills.

And health care plans, dental plans, legal plans, health and safety, community services, substance abuse programs, financial aid, education aid programs... no, nothing socially progressive at all. It's all about the money with those darned unions.

Many private sector, non union firms offer benefits equal to or better than union shops.

You can pretend that unions act as some sort of watchkeeper for the downtrodden working man but we both know that is a load of crap.

Unions exist to gain benefit for their members. Money. Benefits. Pensions. Same thing.

You see the evil corporation, which is trying to do the exact same thing for their side, as being the evil oppressor instead of what they are: competitors for a slice of the same profit.

i don't condemn either, but let us at least respect reality.

Or if you wish, enjoy the fantasy of unions and the labour industry being some sort of benevolent, puppy loving society of evolved beings.

It ain't. Get over it.

[fellowtraveller]

One top of health benefits and any overtime pay, it's quite possible that the total compensation for a new hire in the post office is close to 80k/yr.

Markup for current benefitsis going to run the employer at Canada Post around 55%, so a $50k salary costs around $77k. 25 or 30 years of pension after retirement would run that number up considerably.

[Wilber]

Many private sector, non union firms offer benefits equal to or better than union shops.

You can pretend that unions act as some sort of watchkeeper for the downtrodden working man but we both know that is a load of crap.

Unions exist to gain benefit for their members. Money. Benefits. Pensions. Same thing.

You see the evil corporation, which is trying to do the exact same thing for their side, as being the evil oppressor instead of what they are: competitors for a slice of the same profit.

i don't condemn either, but let us at least respect reality.

Or if you wish, enjoy the fantasy of unions and the labour industry being some sort of benevolent, puppy loving society of evolved beings.

It ain't. Get over it.

Has it ever occurred to some of you brain surgeons that having to compete with union wages and benefits to get employees is a factor in keeping non union wages up or that some companies are willing to pay their employees a premium to keep from becoming unionized? You act as though union and non union jobs operate in totally different markets.

[cybercoma]

Many private sector, non union firms offer benefits equal to or better than union shops.

There's an argument to be made that this is thanks to the unions.

edit: and I see it has already been made above.

Edited June 28, 2011 by cybercoma

[CPCFTW]

There's an argument to be made that this is thanks to the unions.

edit: and I see it has already been made above.

Except it's just the evil CEOs and upper management that get benefits comparable to the lowliest of public sector workers.

[mikedavid00]

Many private sector, non union firms offer benefits equal to or better than union shops.

Never.

I worked in the private sector most of my life and can tell you that most of them fold. They have trouble paying the bills. They struggle to survive. They don't get gov't protectionism.

I can say that most of them really do want to treat their employees well. We went on boat cruises, had lunches, bowling, Christmas parties.... childs stuff.

But when it comes to REALLY putting out solid raises, health plans, 3 day work weeks, part time hours, pensions, guaranteed job security, guaranteed salary increases. YEAH RIGHT! THAT WILL BE THE DAY LOL!

THEY DON'T HATE YOU, THEY REALLY CAN'T AFFORD IT.

These private, struggling companies are like anyone else in the private sector - struggling to pay bills and survive.

In the last few years, if you've seen a poster on the front of a Best Buy or Future Shop window, those posters were ultimatly processed and sent out by *ME*. I developed the system to send out those posters nation wide to all the Future Shops and Best Buy stores. Also Telus locations.

Remember those Music CD's in Loblaws, Canadian Superstore, Zehrs, etc. That was ME AGAIN!

That's the company I worked for. This company was losing money every month. Had NUMEROUS times when the doors were going to get locked. Owed the bank $4 million dollars. It was a family owned business with 10 million of yearly revenue. No one ever got a raise. Everyone was expected to come in on weekends to do work (for free).

But people wanted to do it. It was a group effort to keep the place a float. Eventually, Best Buy wanted an inventory count, after Christmas, they pulled of our company. Everyone got laid off, Telus pulled out when they heard the news. You should have seen people crying. The hurt. The upset. Everyone gave so much in our work family.

The downfall of our company was the owners were too generous. They paid needless executives who did nothing all day. Remote workers in Calgary and Vancouver. The IT manager always spending thousands on needless servers. It was a salary problem and our business wasn't sustainable. Also the gov't gouging us didn't help. The accountants tried to tell the boss over and over but action was never taken. Actually at this company he did pay for most of everyone's dental and drug plan. It was $10 a month.

You guys don't understand how it's like to struggle to survive in the private sector. Only civil service and gov't protected unions (mining, auto, etc) are the ones with benefits. The private sector, hell no.

My wife is going on mat leave soon and she has to go on EI. The same everyone else gets. Her company doesn't top up her EI like a civil servant. My wife is a lower cast in Canadian society so we have to struggle having a new baby where a union member does not.

So she has to PAY for the well being of the civil servant to enjoy her mat leave, and the thanks we get is we have to suffer through our own mat leave.

Don't you see the oppression in that? I guess not. You've been blinded by your country for so long now. It's sick and dysfunctional.

Edited June 29, 2011 by mikedavid00

[Guest Derek L]

Are you so sure about that? Have you prevented your elected government from buying vehicles from GM, Blackberrys from RIM, and God knows what from Wal-Mart lately?

I don’t really care if they purchase products from the above companies, but if I did, I could choose to vote for a different party in the next election………The same is not so with public sector union strike votes….

[mikedavid00]

I don’t really care if they purchase products from the above companies, but if I did, I could choose to vote for a different party in the next election………The same is not so with public sector union strike votes….

Well the problem starts when you have all the CRTC board members who hold shares of Bell Canada, sitting across the table from BELL CANADA, pretending to be unbiased and not take protectionist measures to ensure they stay profitable.

Then Canadians turn around and wonder why their cell phone bills are so high. Only a few people know the real answer. Now you do to.

[dre]

Man... I feel sorry for anyone that thinks 50 thousand per year is some kind of huge wage.

[mikedavid00]

Man... I feel sorry for anyone that thinks 50 thousand per year is some kind of huge wage.

Then you must feel sorry for most Canadians that work in the private sector.

I don't. I'm just sorry that the gov't takes so much of their money away to give it to another 'class' of citizens who essentially do nothing all day but attend catered meetings and conferences in Europe and Las Vegas.

Edited June 29, 2011 by mikedavid00

[Shwa]

Nonsense. Personal safety on worksites is regulated by law in every province in Canada, not by collective agreements.

Yup, it sure is "regulated." Here is how we can tell:

Fines Issued for Health & Safety Violations

Funny though isn't it? All those violation and fines - injuries and deaths - not prevented by the magic regulations. How do you explain this? Personal safety in regulated by laws, yet here we have employers being fined for negligence. Now how is that possible?

Do you think that Labour Canada or the Ontario Ministry of Labour - or any other provincial labour body - have the resources to police health and safety in the workplace? Any union I know works with the employer to ensure a safe work place. It is in the employers best interest to collectively police health and safety in the workplace.

And the notion that unions ensure a good wage for everybody is purest fantasy. What ensures a good wage is having marketable skills. Many private sector, non union firms offer benefits equal to or better than union shops.

And many private sector, non union firms don't. So what is your point again? Oh yes, marketable skills, the kind used in sweatshops, which simply don't exist in Canada because we have regulations. Kind of like how slumlords don't exist because of the magical regulations and laws against them.

You can pretend that unions act as some sort of watchkeeper for the downtrodden working man but we both know that is a load of crap.

No, what I am saying is that unions prevent the "downtrodden working man" and exist for that reason. What unions do is manage collective bargaining, pension investments, community services and all that other good stuff that I mentioned earlier which you call "money."

Unions exist to gain benefit for their members.

No shit Sherlock. Are you new?

Money. Benefits. Pensions. Same thing.

How about joint health and safety, for example - is that the same thing as money, benefits, pension? How about community services? Is that the "same thing" as money? How about representation during grievances process or drug abuse counselling. Go ahead, reduce all of that to the "same thing" as money.

I am getting a sense you don't know what you are talking about and are in over your head now.

You see the evil corporation, which is trying to do the exact same thing for their side, as being the evil oppressor instead of what they are: competitors for a slice of the same profit.

Where - anywhere in this thread - do I say I "see the evil corporation." You see this is where your whole argument breaks down and instead of sticking to the issue - the topic of debate - you need to make a fallacious appeal to divert attention away from the fact that you don't know what you are talking about.

i don't condemn either, but let us at least respect reality.

Condemnation isn't the issue, but in the name of respecting reality, your perspective is a little short on it.

Or if you wish, enjoy the fantasy of unions and the labour industry being some sort of benevolent, puppy loving society of evolved beings.

It ain't. Get over it.

Unions exist for a reason and are a completely legal - and beneficial - form of social organization. And they ain't going away. Get over it.

[Shwa]

Then you must feel sorry for most Canadians that work in the private sector.

I don't. I'm just sorry that the gov't takes so much of their money away to give it to another 'class' of citizens who essentially do nothing all day but attend catered meetings and conferences in Europe and Las Vegas.

[Bonam]

Man... I feel sorry for anyone that thinks 50 thousand per year is some kind of huge wage.

Heh yeah. That's how much I made back when I was a student...

[CPCFTW]

Man... I feel sorry for anyone that thinks 50 thousand per year is some kind of huge wage.

No one thinks 50k is a huge wage. People think 50k + a DB pension plan + benefits For newly hired mailmen, cashiers, and letter sorters is. Even 50k is a lot for the aforementioned occupations. As people have mentioned the DB pension plus benefits probably nearly doubles the value of total compensation. If you think high school dropouts in the oppressed underclass can get 100k compensation jobs, then you have no grasp on reality.

You guys either just have no idea how much value there is these DB pension plans, or don't realize that they are non-existant in the underclass private sector.

Here's a great article on how greedy and out of touch with reality these public service unions are:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/postal-dispute-was-never-about-pensions-new-hires/article2076243/

The dispute was never about pensions and new hires. For both sides, it was about a smaller Canada Post and more flexible work rules in the large urban sorting plants where Canada Post has invested $2-billion in new equipment. These machines will allow the postal service to save roughly $250-million a year, largely by delivering more mail with 7,000 fewer workers, according to an internal CUPW bulletin to members.

“Canada Post is determined to eliminate work through service cuts, contracting out and new technology, especially the new machines and work methods associated with modernization,” the bulletin warns.

The real long-term threat to CUPW is that its membership will inevitably shrink as Canada Post’s monopoly letter-delivery business fades.

So CUPW used the dispute to push back. It wanted Canada Post to become larger, rather than smaller. It urged the post office, for example, to get into banking, getting rid of super mailboxes and allowing letter carriers to check up on the elderly along their routes. Higher postal rates would pay for the expanded service.

Workers seem to be out of touch with a stark reality: Canada Post isn’t a make-work project. Its main business is in inexorable decline. Since 2006, the average number of pieces of mail delivered to Canadians has fallen 17 per cent, replaced by e-mail, online billing and other electronic transactions. At the same time, Canada Post is required by its mandate to get the mail to roughly 200,000 new addresses every year.

The challenging math leaves no good alternative to a smaller post office.

They wanted to extort the Canadian taxpayer into hiring more workers with no work to do at 50k + DB pension plans. They would find work to do by checking up on the elderly and refusing to use automated letter sorting technology. If there was a shortfall of revenue, they would use their legislated monopoly to charge higher postal rates for the elderly check-ups. Sickening entitlement mentality among this class of "elites".

Edited June 29, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Wilber]

No one thinks 50k is a huge wage. People think 50k + a DB pension plan + benefits For newly hired mailmen, cashiers, and letter sorters is. Even 50k is a lot for the aforementioned occupations. As people have mentioned the DB pension plus benefits probably nearly doubles the value of total compensation. If you think high school dropouts in the oppressed underclass can get 100k compensation jobs, then you have no grasp on reality.

You guys either just have no idea how much value there is these DB pension plans, or don't realize that they are non-existant in the underclass private sector.

I don't know how the Post Office DB plans are financed but until interest rates went south in the early 2000's, many companies had contributed nothing to their DB plans, they were 100% employee funded. They were a free benefit as far as the companies were concerned. It is only since then that they have become drag on the bottom line. In spite of that, many plans have increased their funding levels over the past couple of years because of strong market performance. It wouldn't take much of an increase in interest rates before many of them would fully employee funded again.

[mikedavid00]

How about joint health and safety

The good old 'safety card'.

When all else fails resort to 'they do it to keep you safe'.

It's always in the name of safety.

I mean come on, those poor employees at Health Canada in Ottawa in those spacious cubical. I mean.. those dangerous catered meetings. Those dangerous keyboards. Those sketchy elevators.

And lets not forget, the DANGEROUS glare from those nasty 24" 1080p monitors! We need to get them iPads! Yeah!

Haven't you heard, it's for their safety.

[mikedavid00]

Sickening entitlement mentality among this class of "elites".

You can apply that same sentiment to almost all the public sector. Teachers, Firefighters, Police, and the fat cat civil servants who do nothing all day. All the above do nothing but make work projects most of the time to justify their employment.

Teachers actually do real work... for 3 hours a day with 4 months off a year. But hey they actually do work baby sitting our kids.

[Shwa]

The good old 'safety card'.

When all else fails resort to 'they do it to keep you safe'.

It's always in the name of safety.

I see what you mean. Once you get by the maiming, death and risk to the public, there is scarcely anything for anyone to worry about.

I mean come on, those poor employees at Health Canada in Ottawa in those spacious cubical. I mean.. those dangerous catered meetings. Those dangerous keyboards. Those sketchy elevators.

And lets not forget, the DANGEROUS glare from those nasty 24" 1080p monitors! We need to get them iPads! Yeah!

No it is likely for an IT evergreening program approved by senior management to control IT costs; along with a pleasant working environment for the work force of course. Modern business practices really.

Haven't you heard, it's for their safety.

Kind of like your meds. Right?

Edited June 29, 2011 by Shwa

[mikedavid00]

I see what you mean. Once you get by the maiming, death and risk to the public, there is scarcely anything for anyone to worry about.

Yeah out of 20 million workers, 10 accidents happened last month. Wow. The answer to this is higher salaries, pensions, and benefits and to hold the public hostoge. Especially the cubical workers.

When I worked as a paper boy, McDonalds, and then St. Hubert, I got hurt on every job.

I remember that time at St. Hubert I burned myself with hot oil. I was 16 and they were making me work near oil. I got scars on my arm from the burns (true story).

Then another time at St. Hubert some glass broke in the dining area. Someone did a mop afterwards. I dumped the mop in the sink as I was working dish and it was my duty. The sink got clogged as usual later that night after the dinner rush. I reached down to unclog the drain and cut my finger really bad on one of the small glass shards. There was lots of blood.

NOW I NEED TO RUN TO DADDY GOV'T AND BITCH ABOUT HOW UNSAFE MY JOB WAS! NO 16 YEAR OLD SHOULD BE WORKING IN AN UNSAFE KITCHEN ENVIRONMENT!

Man.. I don't know how I survived these unsafe workplaces!

How the fat cats at Ag-Can and the NRC do it is beyond me. Have you been in their buildings? Wow the safety concerns were everywhere. No wonder they are unionized.

After all, out of 20 million workers, you might get a WHOPPING 3 serious accidents a month.

I'd wager there's a better chance of you getting hit by lightning than there is a serious workplace accident.

You are just falling for media hype, and union spin.

Edited June 29, 2011 by mikedavid00

[CPCFTW]

I don't know how the Post Office DB plans are financed but until interest rates went south in the early 2000's, many companies had contributed nothing to their DB plans, they were 100% employee funded. They were a free benefit as far as the companies were concerned. It is only since then that they have become drag on the bottom line. In spite of that, many plans have increased their funding levels over the past couple of years because of strong market performance.

It has very little to do with interest rates and everything to do with stock market performance. The problem is that DB plans put the risk of market underperformance on the guarantor... in this case the Canadian taxpayer. If we were in a bull market indefinitely, then the DB pension plans would be sustainable. The problem is that the types of return they assume are completely unrealistic. In the last 10 years, S&P 500 returns have been around 0%. When return expectations of the equity portion of a DB pension plan portfolio are in the neighborhood of 10% and equity markets are going nowhere or backwards, then the guarantors of these plans (including the Canadian taxpayer) go bankrupt.

It wouldn't take much of an increase in interest rates before many of them would fully employee funded again.

An interest rate increase would lower the price of issued bonds (the only asset class in portfolios that had done well), and also lower equity returns as investors move funds into new higher yield bonds. Higher interest rates would actually further reduce portfolio performance. The only thing they will do is increase the discount rate on future pension obligations. But that is just an actuarial or paper gain. It's irrelevant if portfolios continue to stagnant.

Edited June 29, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Wilber]

It has very little to do with interest rates and everything to do with stock market performance. The problem is that DB plans put the risk of market underperformance on the guarantor... in this case the Canadian taxpayer. If we were in a bull market indefinitely, then the DB pension plans would be sustainable. The problem is that the types of return they assume are completely unrealistic. In the last 10 years, S&P 500 returns have been around 0%. When return expectations of the equity portion of a DB pension plan portfolio are in the neighborhood of 10% and equity markets are going nowhere or backwards, then the guarantors of these plans (including the Canadian taxpayer) go bankrupt.

Pension plans are quite conservatively managed and as a result, try to keep as much in fixed income investments as possible. Low rates force them into the market to try and keep returns up. If companies which have had DB plans for decades had matched employee contributions to even 50 cents on the dollar instead of not contributing until the plans went into deficit, their plans would be rolling in money today. In some ways I think DC plans in which monthly company contributions were mandatory from the get go would have avoided our present situation but they weren't and they didn't.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Wilber

[CPCFTW]

Pension plans are quite conservatively managed and as a result, try to keep as much in fixed income investments as possible. Low rates force them into the market to try and keep returns up.

"As much in fixed income as possible" is still usually a minority of the portfolio. A "conservative" portfolio might have 30-40% invested in FI. See: http://www.thedividendguyblog.com/pension-fund-asset-allocations-you-can-use/

If companies which have had DB plans for decades had matched employee contributions to even 50 cents on the dollar instead of not contributing until the plans went into deficit, their plans would be rolling in money today.

Why are you still talking about now bankrupt companies? We are talking about public service unions that are bankrupting and oppressing the Canadian taxpayer and private sector.

In some ways I think DC plans in which monthly company contributions were mandatory from the get go would have avoided our present situation but they weren't and they didn't.

The argument is to stop giving DB pension plans out to new hires. No one is saying we should renege on the current DB plans.

Edited June 29, 2011 by CPCFTW

[cybercoma]

Yeah out of 20 million workers, 10 accidents happened last month.

First of all, there aren't 20,000,000 people employed in Canada, it's somewhere around or below 15,000,000. Secondly, all of those news stories are from Ontario alone. And thirdly, those are just the companies that were fined, rather than all the accidents that happened.

[Shwa]

Yeah out of 20 million workers, 10 accidents happened last month. Wow. The answer to this is higher salaries, pensions, and benefits and to hold the public hostoge. Especially the cubical workers.

So you are saying a little maiming and death in the workplace is OK? Why a little? Why have any safety regulations at all? Thereby reducing the surplus population?

When I worked as a paper boy, McDonalds, and then St. Hubert, I got hurt on every job.

I remember that time at St. Hubert I burned myself with hot oil. I was 16 and they were making me work near oil. I got scars on my arm from the burns (true story).

Then another time at St. Hubert some glass broke in the dining area. Someone did a mop afterwards. I dumped the mop in the sink as I was working dish and it was my duty. The sink got clogged as usual later that night after the dinner rush. I reached down to unclog the drain and cut my finger really bad on one of the small glass shards. There was lots of blood.

NOW I NEED TO RUN TO DADDY GOV'T AND BITCH ABOUT HOW UNSAFE MY JOB WAS! NO 16 YEAR OLD SHOULD BE WORKING IN AN UNSAFE KITCHEN ENVIRONMENT!

That's right - no 16 year old should be working in an unsafe kitchen environment. Are you saying it is OK because you survived accidents? Then drunk driving should be OK because, you know, people have survived drunk driving accidents.

Man.. I don't know how I survived these unsafe workplaces!

But we certainly know how those who died didn't survive, don't we?

How the fat cats at Ag-Can and the NRC do it is beyond me. Have you been in their buildings? Wow the safety concerns were everywhere. No wonder they are unionized.

Once they got rid of the asbestos and PCB's, sure. It likely became a more comfortable place to work. Hopefully the cancer rates dropped. An excellent management strategy and common business practice wouldn't you say?

After all, out of 20 million workers, you might get a WHOPPING 3 serious accidents a month.

Let me guess - the cost of doing business right?

I'd wager there's a better chance of you getting hit by lightning than there is a serious workplace accident.

What Are the Odds You'll Get Struck By Lightning?

Lightning strikes kill or injure an estimated 120 to 190 people each year in Canada. In an average year, ten people die from lightning.

National Work Injury Statistics - 939 workplace fatalities in 2009; there were 1,035 deaths in 2008.

So I guess you would lose the wager wouldn't you? Not only that, you likely have no idea what you are talking about.

You are just falling for media hype, and union spin.

Right. That's what it is. All those workplaces maimings and deaths are mere "media hype" or "union spin." Of course, it's so obvious.