Israel's march to the Dark Ages

[Bonam]

Women are allowed in 88% of all roles in the IDF but for how long? How long before the religious councils of Israel force the government to ban women from the military, workplaces?

I don't think it is trending in that direction. In recent years, women have been gaining more roles in the military in Israel, not losing them. The ultra-orthodox are not the mainstream. Israel has a growing atheist/agnostic demographic too, and I don't see them letting the ultra-orthodox take things over.

Already Jewish newspapers are censoring their newspapers, by removing women from pictures, so as to not offend Jewish men with pictures of women with their faces exposed. Jewish groups in Israel are exporting their extreme brand of Judaism around the world, much like how Saudi Arabia exports its extreme brand of Islam.

Somewhat unrelated note, I looked at this article and saw the video of the "flogging" in Pakistan. Seriously, that's what all the fuss was about? Didn't even look like it hurt at all I guess it's supposed to be humiliating or something. You can go to any number of kinky porn websites and see much much more severe flogging heh.

As for the newspaper, it obviously has no journalistic integrity if it edits photos in that manner and it is an insult to the female cabinet ministers that were edited out.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Bonam

[Guest American Woman]

Women are allowed in 88% of all roles in the IDF but for how long? How long before the religious councils of Israel force the government to ban women from the military, workplaces?

Are they trying to do this, or is this just speculation on your part?

Already Jewish newspapers are censoring their newspapers, by removing women from pictures, so as to not offend Jewish men with pictures of women with their faces exposed.

You have to recognize that it isn't "Jewish" newspapers, but Hasidic newspapers. The two are not synonymous.

Jewish groups in Israel are exporting their extreme brand of Judaism around the world, much like how Saudi Arabia exports its extreme brand of Islam.

Proof, please.

As DogOnPorch pointed out even in NEW YORK Jewish media are following Israeli trends of removing the "unclean" faces of women from their media.

Again, it's not Jewish media, but Hasidic media, and since Hasidism was founded in the 1700's in Eastern Europe (it didn't come out of Israel) it has declined, so it's not a new movement that is spreading; and again, it's not an "Israeli trend."

As for the "even in NEW YORK" comment, NYC has one of the largest of only a dozen or so major movements, with a membership of around 100,000, so not surprising that a paper in NY acted in such a manner. link You're making this into something it's not.

Edited May 14, 2011 by American Woman

[Bob]

Post to the Left is engaging in hysterics. This type of activity is unheard of. I am quite familiar with Hassidim (they're generally harmless), and this story shocked me. This is ONE newspaper from New York, and it isn't even compatible with their modesty requirements, as newspaper images of Hilary Clinton don't transgress any of their rules. Regardless of the stupidity of the act of erasing Hilary from the photo (I'm still shaking my head at that), this is hardly normal. In fact, I've never seen this kinda stupidity in a Jewish newspaper, ever.

The crazy comments about the ultra-orthodox establishment encroaching on Israel are further hysteric from someone who doesn't know anything about Israel. If you want real stories about ultra-orthodox group trying to impose their will on others, read up on stories about their opposition to public buses running on Shabbat, or how in certain sections of Jerusalem there is a quasi-official segregation on public buses based on gender (which doesn't really bother me, as most people do it voluntarily, except for the slippery slope concept). This is a non-story

It's ridiculous that you spun this story into "even a New York newspaper", when it was ONLY THE NEW YORK NEWSPAPER. Don't portray Israel as exporting something like Saudi Arabia exports Wahabi Islam (which isn't comparable to ultra-orthodox Judaism on many things, primarily advocacy for violent Jihad).

[Post To The Left]

I don't think it is trending in that direction. In recent years, women have been gaining more roles in the military in Israel, not losing them. The ultra-orthodox are not the mainstream. Israel has a growing atheist/agnostic demographic too, and I don't see them letting the ultra-orthodox take things over.

But the Israeli atheist/agnostic demographic birth rate is already rock bottom and still falling while the extremist Judaism birth rate is skyrocketing with average families of over 10 children that grow up to live a life on welfare.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Post To The Left

[Post To The Left]

It's ridiculous that you spun this story into "even a New York newspaper", when it was ONLY THE NEW YORK NEWSPAPER. Don't portray Israel as exporting something like Saudi Arabia exports Wahabi Islam (which isn't comparable to ultra-orthodox Judaism on many things, primarily advocacy for violent Jihad).

It started with Israeli papers and now even New York papers are removing women from their media. The extremist Jews "simply does not believe that women should have a public life, or even vote." With the population demographics its only a matter of time before the religious parties start eliminating women from public life, disfranchising them, and taking away all their rights.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Post To The Left

[Post To The Left]

Again, it's not Jewish media, but Hasidic media, and since Hasidism was founded in the 1700's in Eastern Europe (it didn't come out of Israel) it has declined, so it's not a new movement that is spreading; and again, it's not an "Israeli trend."

So your argument is that the actions of an extremist minority don't reflect on the religion as a whole?

[Bonam]

But the Israeli atheist/agnostic demographic birth rate is already rock bottom and still falling while the extremist Judaism birth rate is skyrocketing with average families of over 10 children that grow up to live a life on welfare.

Most atheists/agnostics are not born into atheist/agnostic families. Anyways, the ultra-orthodox are far outnumbered by the other segments of Israeli society, whether religious or irreligious. Demographic trends may make their strict beliefs a bigger problem in the future, but the situation is not nearly so dire as you make it out to be in the present. Personally, I suspect that as time passes, more and more of the religious will decline in their religiosity and tend towards atheism, as has been the case in pretty much all advanced countries in modern history.

[Guest American Woman]

So your argument is that the actions of an extremist minority don't reflect on the religion as a whole?

My argument is that it's not as you presented it.

My argument is that this isn't an Israeli trend.

My argument is that this is not true: The extremist Jews "simply does not believe that women should have a public life, or even vote. They are not "extremist Jews," they are Hasidic Jews, which is not synonymous with "extremist Jews." They are a specific branch of Judaism, which evolved in the 1700's in Eastern Europe, and it has declined since then. Again. It's not an "Israeli trend."

My argument is that it didn't "start with Israeli papers" and "now even NY papers" are doing it; that is false.

My argument is that it is not a political movement. It is not the act of the government. It's not a trend, as you are presenting it. You are trying to make it into something it's not, and you are being very dishonest in the process.

Again. It is not extremists Jews, it is Hasidic Jews, and it's not any more indicative of "Israel marching into the Dark Ages" than the Amish are representative of "extremist Christians" or "America marching into the Dark Ages."

I know what you are trying to do, and you are failing miserably. This is one very distinct branch of Judaism, it's not out of Israel, it's not "extremist Jews." Furthermore, Israel is not trying to export this branch of Judaism as Saudi Arabia is trying to export Wahabi Islam, which I've noticed you managed not to refer to as "extremist Muslims." That is something you made up.

This whole thread is a dishonest attempt to present this issue as something it's not.

Edited May 14, 2011 by American Woman

[Saipan]

So your argument is that the actions of an extremist minority don't reflect on the religion as a whole?

Not the government, unlike Saudi Arabia, Syria, Afghanistant Iran.... etc.

[Bob]

It started with Israeli papers and now even New York papers are removing women from their media. The extremist Jews "simply does not believe that women should have a public life, or even vote." With the population demographics its only a matter of time before the religious parties start eliminating women from public life, disfranchising them, and taking away all their rights.

Agh. I am losing my patience with you. That is a characterization of the ultra-religious movement. Even is that story is true about the adjusted photograph of the female MKs, so what? For all the problems with the ultra-orthodox community in Israel, them being opposed to women's voting rights is not one of them. That's an absolute lie. There are real problems that can be discussed for women in ultra-religious circles among Jews (primarily marriage and familial pressures), but you'd actually have to be familiar with them to begin, and not on some agenda to smear Israel as some ultra-religious nation-state. In many ways, I assure you, Israel is much more laid-back than both Canada and America.

Stop speaking about Israeli birthrate as if you've actually looked at them. It's lovely how the only acceptable demographic to you is the "atheist/agnostic" one. I'm still waiting for you to make a post about Arab birthrates in Israel and in the territories. Considering their high level of religiosity, surely that's concerning to you?

[Post To The Left]

Demographic trends may make their strict beliefs a bigger problem in the future, but the situation is not nearly so dire as you make it out to be in the present. Personally, I suspect that as time passes, more and more of the religious will decline in their religiosity and tend towards atheism, as has been the case in pretty much all advanced countries in modern history.

Due to these communities being totally cut off from the rest of Israeli society there is no exit for these youth. They are trapped in the lifestyle. They don't read the news, watch TV and refuse to work. Already they are 10% of Israel's population and growing every year.

Those who choose to leave know little about the world they are entering. "They are like aliens," says Irit Paneth of the organisation Hillel ...They often do not know how to open a bank account, use the internet, find work and rent an apartment, she explains, or how to operate socially in the secular world.

If one child leaves, it can harm the marriage prospects of their brothers and sisters, or influence siblings to make the break too ... a father told his daughter he would rather kill her than see her become secular. She eventually committed suicide.-- BBC

So to Bob's assertion that these communities "opposition to public buses running on Shabbat, or how in certain sections of Jerusalem there is a quasi-official segregation on public buses based on gender" we can add Jewish honour-killing of young females who stray from the path.

[Post To The Left]

Agh. I am losing my patience with you. That is a characterization of the ultra-religious movement.

So you're saying that Jewish ultra-religious movements don't reflect on all of Israeli society?

I'm still waiting for you to make a post about Arab birthrates in Israel and in the territories. Considering their high level of religiosity, surely that's concerning to you?

Israeli-Arabs don't matter as once the religious parties have gained power they can execute, Foreign Minister Lieberman's present day plan, of stripping them of Israeli citizenship and moving them out of the country so as to maintain the religious purity of the mother state.

[Guest American Woman]

...a father told his daughter he would rather kill her than see her become secular.

....we can add Jewish honour-killing of young females who stray from the path.

Yes, of course. We can "add" that on the basis of one man voicing his opinion.

Could you be more dishonest?? ............. I'm afraid the answer is most likely 'yes.'

[Saipan]

in certain sections of Jerusalem there is a quasi-official segregation on public buses based on gender" we can add Jewish honour-killing of young females who stray from the path.

Which Imam told you that BS?

[Post To The Left]

Which Imam told you that BS?

As the link clearly shows its from the BBC. The quote is from an expert on these Jewish groups, Sarit Barzilai, although the article includes an account of a very brave women who was able to flee the Jewish extremists to freedom. In the same story Rabbi Noson Weisz talks about "he has only known four or five cases of people leaving [the extremist religious sects] in three decades of work, while he has seen thousands of Jews move from secular to religious lifestyles."

So in addition to the high birth rate according to this Rabbi Noson Weisz not only are there very little cases of people escaping the Jewish lifestyle in fact there are many who join to live on an religious life where you focus on the religious texts, don't work.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Post To The Left

[Post To The Left]

Yes, of course. We can "add" that on the basis of one man voicing his opinion.

Maybe you are just voicing your views that women can't be educated but the story that was recounted, was told by a WOMAN Sarit Barzilai.

"Anthropologist Sarit Barzilai has studied former Haredimm ... she knows of, a father told his daughter he would rather kill her than see her become secular. She eventually committed suicide. "

Edited May 15, 2011 by Post To The Left

[Bob]

So you're saying that Jewish ultra-religious movements don't reflect on all of Israeli society?

Israeli-Arabs don't matter as once the religious parties have gained power they can execute, Foreign Minister Lieberman's present day plan, of stripping them of Israeli citizenship and moving them out of the country so as to maintain the religious purity of the mother state.

I meant to say *MIScharacterization of the ultra-orthodox movement. There are legitimate beefs to be had with this community, but you're clearly here for sensationalist reasons. There's really no point in continuing this discussion, especially after the ludicrous reference to Jewish honour-killings. The ultra-religious community may be quirky, but one thing they are not is violent in the way you're trying to suggest. I think it's quite clear that you're trying to compare the ultra-orthodox Jewish community to the Islamists. You'd have a point if the ultra-orthodox Jewish community was beheading perceived opponents en masse, calling for stoning and other biblical death penalties to be implemented, calling for a religious Jewish state, flying planes into skyscrapers, etc... you get the point. Please stop your desperate attempt to demonize the ultra-religious Jewish community, your intentions are transparent.

The second paragraph isn't worth responding to, it's just further hysterics based on false suppositions. It's funny how you're trying to dress up your attacks on the ultra-religious Jewish community as concern for Israel's long-term well-being. If anything, you want Israel to become another Islamist state where the Jewish people are subjugated. No thanks.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Bob

[Guest American Woman]

Maybe you are just voicing your views that women can't be educated but the story that was recounted, was told by a WOMAN Sarit Barzilai.

"Anthropologist Sarit Barzilai has studied former Haredimm ... she knows of, a father told his daughter he would rather kill her than see her become secular. She eventually committed suicide. "

And maybe you're a fool since I haven't voiced anything of the sort. Again. Your off-the-wall claim that one man voicing his view that he would rather kill his daughter than see her become secular does not a murder make, much less represent the existence of "Jewish honor killing." You are as dishonest as the day is long.

[Post To The Left]

And maybe you're a fool since I haven't voiced anything of the sort. Again. Your off-the-wall claim that one man voicing his view that he would rather kill his daughter than see her become secular does not a murder make, much less represent the existence of "Jewish honor killing." You are as dishonest as the day is long.

I'm sorry I didn't know there was a correct term for the killing of ones daughter in Judaism. So if it is not "Jewish honor (sic) killing" as you are the expert on Jewish culture you can tell us the correct term for murdering your child because they might follow a secular lifestyle?

Edited May 15, 2011 by Post To The Left

[Post To The Left]

I think it's quite clear that you're trying to compare the ultra-orthodox Jewish community to the Islamists. You'd have a point if the ultra-orthodox Jewish community was beheading perceived opponents en masse, calling for stoning and other biblical death penalties to be implemented, calling for a religious Jewish state, flying planes into skyscrapers, etc... you get the point. Please stop your desperate attempt to demonize the ultra-religious Jewish community, your intentions are transparent.

So a minority of discredited Muslims that espouse an extremist agenda represent the whole of Islam but a minority of extremist Jews that espouse an extremist agenda are just "quirky"?

[Guest American Woman]

I'm sorry I didn't know there was a correct term for the killing of ones daughter in Judaism. So if it is not "Jewish honor (sic) killing" as you are the expert on Jewish culture you can tell us the correct term for murdering your child because they might follow a secular lifestyle?

How about coming up with even one instance where a Jewish parent did kill their child because the child might follow a secular lifestyle first, ok? Thanks in advance.

I repeat. You're as dishonest as the day is long. Odd how when one anti-Israel poster leaves, another newbie always shows up to carry on in their place.

Here's a tip. Try discussing this issue honestly, without making stuff up in an effort to equate it to extremist Muslims. It's plain to see what you are doing, or I should say attempting to do, and you are failing miserably.

[Bonam]

I'm sorry I didn't know there was a correct term for the killing of ones daughter in Judaism. So if it is not "Jewish honor (sic) killing" as you are the expert on Jewish culture you can tell us the correct term for murdering your child because they might follow a secular lifestyle?

Except that no murder happened. Small little details like that can be inconvenient to propagandists, I know.

[Saipan]

It's common in countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan etc.

[GostHacked]

So a minority of discredited Muslims that espouse an extremist agenda represent the whole of Islam but a minority of extremist Jews that espouse an extremist agenda are just "quirky"?

Agreed.

[Post To The Left]

Except that no murder happened. Small little details like that can be inconvenient to propagandists, I know.

No she was only driven to suicide, I hope that makes you feel better.