Who really isn't "paying their fair share"?

[Smallc]

My daughter was a gifted student. The system we have rewards the idiots and punishes the good ones.

What a load of crap. I was also a gifted student. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[RNG]

What a load of crap. I was also a gifted student. You have no idea what you're talking about.

What an amazingly, well reasoned and data filled argument. I bow to your superior debating skills.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

My daughter was a gifted student. The system we have rewards the idiots and punishes the good ones. The major difference between a conservative and a socialist. A conservative believes in equal opportunity. A socialist believes in equal outcomes, no matter how much you have to screw the good ones and carry the a**holes.

I'd like to hear more about your daughters experience, if you are willing.

In High School (Ontario) students are split into Academic(University), Applied(College), Workplace, Open (General)

I had a friend when I was in High School whose parents begged to have their daughter held back to teach her a lesson (skipping, bad behaviour). The elementary school passed her anyways. She became a prostitute, the parents knew best and I agree with them. The system failed her. Parents should be able to make the executive decision as to whether their child is ready to move on.

Edited May 11, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Smallc]

What an amazingly, well reasoned and data filled argument. I bow to your superior debating skills.

Well I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. An education is what you make of it, no matter what system you happen to be in. An education only gives you the tools to do something with your life. It's up to you what you do with those tools, whether you're gifted or not.

[KeyStone]

In Alberta, the government decided to grant private schools the same grant per student that they gave to the public systems.

Then they instituted a rule that said you could opt out of paying the school tax part of the property tax if your kid was in a private school.

There are real problems with this.

First of all, just encouraging private schools means that those with extra money can ensure that their children not only receive a better level of education, but also are able to ensure that their children only go to school with children from similar levels of affluence.

The real problem is that it creates two-tiers of education. Aside from the fact that private schools don't have to take all the troubled kids, it also means that all the decision makers (usually affluent) don't need to worry so much about public schools, because their children will be going to private schools anyway.

But I do not have data to show they are cheaper, I will admit.

That's because private schools are generally more expensive. They need to make profits. If the private system created private schools that only used the grants from the government, and didn't charge additional fees, that would be very interesting.

Thought there is proof that they are better, given standardized test results.

This isn't really proof of them being better, it's proof that the students in those schools score higher on standardized tests. Generally, students that go to private schools are going to come from wealthier families with more engaged parents. There is a correlation between these things and scholastic achievement.

You say that Conservatives want people to have the same opportunities, but having two-tiered education doesn't really create a level playing field does it?

Edited May 11, 2011 by KeyStone

[RNG]

There are real problems with this.

First of all, just encouraging private schools means that those with extra money can ensure that their children not only receive a better level of education, but also are able to ensure that their children only go to school with children from similar levels of affluence.

The real problem is that it creates two-tiers of education. Aside from the fact that private schools don't have to take all the troubled kids, it also means that all the decision makers (usually affluent) don't need to worry so much about public schools, because their children will be going to private schools anyway.

That's because private schools are generally more expensive. They need to make profits. If the private system created private schools that only used the grants from the government, and didn't charge additional fees, that would be very interesting.

This isn't really proof of them being better, it's proof that the students in those schools score higher on standardized tests. Generally, students that go to private schools are going to come from wealthier families with more engaged parents. There is a correlation between these things and scholastic achievement.

You say that Conservatives want people to have the same opportunities, but having two-tiered education doesn't really create a level playing field does it?

Another characteristic of the socialist dogma. Reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator. Equality of outcome at it's best.

[RNG]

I'd like to hear more about your daughters experience, if you are willing.

In High School (Ontario) students are split into Academic(University), Applied(College), Workplace, Open (General)

I had a friend when I was in High School whose parents begged to have their daughter held back to teach her a lesson (skipping, bad behaviour). The elementary school passed her anyways. She became a prostitute, the parents knew best and I agree with them. The system failed her. Parents should be able to make the executive decision as to whether their child is ready to move on.

In grades 1, 2 and 3, the teachers basically were afraid of her and sort of shunted her off to the side, stacking library shelves, etc. What saved her was that her grade 4 teacher had taken a masters degree studying gifted children. She worked with our daughter a lot. Found a therapist to work with her. Got her head on straight and got the school administration to understand the situation. She is a hero. By the time she entered junior high, she had her act together enough that she could put up with the silliness most public schools display.

Yes, our public system does a great job, at an enormous cost, for the challenged, but at the detriment of the average and gifted.

[Smallc]

Yes, our public system does a great job, at an enormous cost, for the challenged, but at the detriment of the average and gifted.

And as I've already said, I take your anecdote, and raise you mine. You can be anything you want to be. It's really up to you.

[RNG]

And as I've already said, I take your anecdote, and raise you mine. You can be anything you want to be. It's really up to you.

The same as my wish for all.

[Bonam]

What a load of crap. I was also a gifted student. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I have a counter anecdote for that as well. I was a gifted learner too and felt extremely stifled by the school system, especially in elementary school. I was a nerd and hated not only by the other students but by most of the teachers as well. My mom asked my grade 3 teacher (an idiotic lady in her late 60s) whether I might be a gifted learner and was told that "there's no such thing". I was forced to sit through math lessons on things I had known since my dad taught them to me when I was 4-5 years old. I was reading Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Homer (in grade 4), and yet my teachers graded me on my ability to spell 4 letter words and read books like "green eggs and ham". I was fluently trilingual (English, Russian, and Hebrew) and yet they put me into ESL because it was "required" since I had only been in Canada for a few years.

Fortunately, after the bullying reached a climax in grade 4, my parents found a private school for the rest of my elementary education, where I finally started to find myself. They had me tested for giftedness and the psychologist found a rather high IQ so I qualified for the above mentioned private school which was for gifted learners only. After I finished that, they found a high school program (public, but designed for motivated/bright students, the program has since been severely cut in funding) that was quite good, but I woulda probably ended up dead if I'd gone through the normal high school path.

My friend from the gifted private elementary school went through a normal high school program (he didn't get into the one I was in since it only had 28 spots per year and over 2000 applicants). His IQ back in the day had been measured as 170ish. He had just finished grade 12 math at the end of grade 7 when we graduated from elementary school. He ended up a druggie and a dropout after repeated beatings in grade 8 and 9 by his peers, which the teachers/principle in his high school did nothing about.

[ninjandrew]

I have a counter anecdote for that as well. I was a gifted learner too and felt extremely stifled by the school system, especially in elementary school. I was a nerd and hated not only by the other students but by most of the teachers as well. My mom asked my grade 3 teacher (an idiotic lady in her late 60s) whether I might be a gifted learner and was told that "there's no such thing". I was forced to sit through math lessons on things I had known since my dad taught them to me when I was 4-5 years old. I was reading Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Homer (in grade 4), and yet my teachers graded me on my ability to spell 4 letter words and read books like "green eggs and ham". I was fluently trilingual (English, Russian, and Hebrew) and yet they put me into ESL because it was "required" since I had only been in Canada for a few years.

Fortunately, after the bullying reached a climax in grade 4, my parents found a private school for the rest of my elementary education, where I finally started to find myself. They had me tested for giftedness and the psychologist found a rather high IQ so I qualified for the above mentioned private school which was for gifted learners only. After I finished that, they found a high school program (public, but designed for motivated/bright students, the program has since been severely cut in funding) that was quite good, but I woulda probably ended up dead if I'd gone through the normal high school path.

My friend from the gifted private elementary school went through a normal high school program (he didn't get into the one I was in since it only had 28 spots per year and over 2000 applicants). His IQ back in the day had been measured as 170ish. He had just finished grade 12 math at the end of grade 7 when we graduated from elementary school. He ended up a druggie and a dropout after repeated beatings in grade 8 and 9 by his peers, which the teachers/principle in his high school did nothing about.

Wow, thats the total opposite of me. It turned out I had ADD and Tourette syndrome, which would have been bad enough, but there seems to be an lot of people who think those disorders/syndromes are made up (or something...). Before I was taken to a child psychologist I was put in a class for deaf kids and had to wear an FM, which is essentially a unit you wear that broadcasts through headphones what the teacher is speaking into a microphone. Than when we moved and that class wasnt available. The new school installed speakers pointed at my chair for the same reason. PS, I'm not hearing impaired.

It was determined that I had a fairly high IQ too, so while the ADD prevented me from learning most things in class, I was quickly able to learn things that actually interested me. I bounced around from school to school, special ed. class to special ed. class. Those classes were usually full of kids from abusive families, had FAS, Asperger syndrome, autism, Down's syndrome, you name it. Cant say any of that was any good for my education... As for the Tourettes; that one got me kicked out a lot. In grade 9 when I was actually in normal classes for once, my English teacher ended up making me spend all of my English classes in the special ed. class. My grade 9 math teacher made me sit in a desk in the hallway every class, start to finish. Needless to say, math is my biggest weakness, which sucks because it seems like all the highest paying jobs are math oriented. Another grade 8 teacher of mine actually tried strangling me and left bruises all over my neck. Thank God for high school! Good times...

Looks like whether youre gifted with a high IQ or gifted with disorders and syndromes you can still slip through the cracks of our current education system.

Edited May 11, 2011 by ninjandrew

[bloodyminded]

My daughter was a gifted student. The system we have rewards the idiots and punishes the good ones.

Are you criticizing our successful business-oriented multi-millionaire citizens?

No, of course not. You no doubt allow convenient exemptions to your little "rule" here.

[WIP]

My daughter was a gifted student. The system we have rewards the idiots and punishes the good ones. The major difference between a conservative and a socialist. A conservative believes in equal opportunity. A socialist believes in equal outcomes, no matter how much you have to screw the good ones and carry the a**holes.

Okay, we've heard this before! Conservatives and libertarians believe in a theoretical "level playing field" which not only doesn't exist, but CANNOT exist in the real world. A child who grows up in poverty is behind the 8-ball before they even leave the womb, thanks to the fact that the mother is less likely to have a balanced diet, and more likely to be releasing stress-related hormones which affect the baby growing inside her womb. Needless to say, that she is also more likely to be a smoker during pregnancy and using drugs and/or alcohol....so...so much for the level playing field! The child's brain development is very unlikely to reach full potential, so there odds of great financial success are limited, and they are many more times as likely to be impulsive and less likely to delay reward for immediate gratification -- another strongly correlating factor with both future success in life and on the flipside, the likelihood of becoming an alcoholic, drug abuser, and being incarcerated. And the only remaining question is what do we do with those who do not have an equal start in life! Do we kick out the struts, like the right wants us to do, and further cement the class divisions in society, or do we take steps to level the playing field...what the right calls "equal outcomes" as if such a thing is ever achieved by any society!

The social safety net that our CAPITALIST society started constructing after WWII set goals of leveling the playing field, through progressive taxation, free public education, low cost public health care etc., and needless to say, these are all things that the right is trying to erase, so that they can return us to the days of feudalism. From what's happened to upward mobility stats over the last 20 years, my guess is that they are most of the way there in turning Canada and the United States back into class-based societies of a privileged few, who carry their wealth through the generations and create their own personal dynasties...and everyone else, who has as much chance of cracking through the top and joining the elite rich class, as winning a $10 million dollar lottery ticket.

Now what do conservatives propose doing with the a**holes? And, I mean what about the less-gifted students. Well, one thing is for sure -- without a public education system that provides at least the opportunity to get a basic education, there is no way out for the a**holes growing up in poverty. For all the horrors you and others can cite in your testimonials about public education systems, the alternatives are worse! When charter schooling (the privatization of public schools) is adopted in a big way, such as in many jurisdictions in England, the first thing the new charter schools do is to try to rid themselves of the problem students any way they can. They don't want the dullards, the misfits and the kids with ADHD bringing down their overall test scores. Charter schooling in London has also created an unforeseen increase in ethnic tensions, as Muslims, Catholics and Evangelicals have created their own religious schools where they can keep their children in a bubble, and away from children of different religions and races. The same sort of polarization will happen here if we let these fools, like our Ontario P.C. Party carry out their agenda of funding private religious schools with public education tax dollars. For all of its problems and shortfalls, the costs of degrading or dismantling public schooling would be far worse than whatever problems they presently have!

[Peter F]

Okay, we've heard this before! Conservatives and libertarians believe in a theoretical "level playing field" ...

The same sort of polarization will happen here if we let these fools, like our Ontario P.C. Party carry out their agenda of funding private religious schools with public education tax dollars. For all of its problems and shortfalls, the costs of degrading or dismantling public schooling would be far worse than whatever problems they presently have!

(my italics)

Well said! I'd like to also point out that starting up a private school or enrolling ones child in one is really not a problem. The problem RNG see's, and as you point out, the Ontario PC's are playing too, is that Private Schools should be cheap and on the public dime!

(edit: pointless insult removed)

Edited May 11, 2011 by Peter F

[bloodyminded]

Okay, we've heard this before! Conservatives and libertarians believe in a theoretical "level playing field" which not only doesn't exist, but CANNOT exist in the real world. A child who grows up in poverty is behind the 8-ball before they even leave the womb, thanks to the fact that the mother is less likely to have a balanced diet, and more likely to be releasing stress-related hormones which affect the baby growing inside her womb. Needless to say, that she is also more likely to be a smoker during pregnancy and using drugs and/or alcohol....so...so much for the level playing field! The child's brain development is very unlikely to reach full potential, so there odds of great financial success are limited, and they are many more times as likely to be impulsive and less likely to delay reward for immediate gratification -- another strongly correlating factor with both future success in life and on the flipside, the likelihood of becoming an alcoholic, drug abuser, and being incarcerated. And the only remaining question is what do we do with those who do not have an equal start in life! Do we kick out the struts, like the right wants us to do, and further cement the class divisions in society, or do we take steps to level the playing field...what the right calls "equal outcomes" as if such a thing is ever achieved by any society!

That's right. It's funny to me that ideologues believe it's all about ideology, when actually there have been perfectly practical reasons for public education, the social saftey net, and what have you. The real ideologues are the diehard opponents.

It's great, and will forever be necessary, to have debates and discussions about these matters, so that the very real problems and issues can be tackled. But to indulge in ideas to banish what are really civilizing improvements is intellectually and morally insane.

[WIP]

That's right. It's funny to me that ideologues believe it's all about ideology, when actually there have been perfectly practical reasons for public education, the social saftey net, and what have you. The real ideologues are the diehard opponents.

It's great, and will forever be necessary, to have debates and discussions about these matters, so that the very real problems and issues can be tackled. But to indulge in ideas to banish what are really civilizing improvements is intellectually and morally insane.

Yes, these rightwing ideals like the "level playing field" have to be unmasked for being no more than faith-based assumptions, that have no relation to what goes on in the real world! The level playing field would only work if genetics and environmental pressures played no role in the development of a child. In the real world, no one starts from the same level, even if there was a libertarian paradise of no taxes or government services.

This was a constant refrain about socialism or communism, as being unrealistic and out of touch of actual human behaviour, but we sure can see how out of touch libertarian and conservative idealists are now that we have suffered through 30 years of neo-liberal economic policies that have exacerbated the gaps in income and left most of the middle class struggling with increasing debt-loads trying to keep up with their former standards of living.

[Bonam]

That's right. It's funny to me that ideologues believe it's all about ideology, when actually there have been perfectly practical reasons for public education, the social saftey net, and what have you. The real ideologues are the diehard opponents.

It's great, and will forever be necessary, to have debates and discussions about these matters, so that the very real problems and issues can be tackled. But to indulge in ideas to banish what are really civilizing improvements is intellectually and morally insane.

I'm actually all for public education. Education is the one of most important things to achieve success, both on an individual level and as a society. I just think that the public education system we have now, and could possibly have by nature of the prevalent ideology present in the school system, does not adequately serve gifted students. In fact, from everything I've seen during my years in school, it puts them in grave physical and emotional danger. Despite these problems, funding to programs that cater towards gifted students only keeps getting cut and the issue swept under the rug. Private schools are a necessity to adequately serve gifted children.

The ideologically rigid on this issue are those who believe that private schools should not exist because they give an unfair advantage to the children of rich parents. This may be true, but it is frankly irrelevant, because the far greater issue is that private schools are a necessity for some children to be able to properly develop and thrive rather than being the victims of constant bullying and an environment of mediocrity. I put my money where my mouth is on this issue: the only money I've ever donated to any cause was to the gifted elementary school I went to, to help keep it going, because I believe it to be of prime importance.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Bonam

[ninjandrew]

Why do you keep talking about gifted kids and bullying?? The only people bullys dont bully are people that stand up for themselves.