Oleg Bach Posted July 2, 2011 Report Posted July 2, 2011 I reject what seems to be your characterization of the West as "just as bad, if not worse" than everyone else. Even when coming from the left, as you do, my argument still holds water. The only way the UN interferes with our interests is its undeserved reputation in the minds of the ignorant (again, this includes many folks in the media and in politics). Many folks in the West still reflexively trust the UN and hold it in relative esteem. This needs to end. Once the mainstream view of the UN becomes one of contempt and revulsion, and not one of respect and deference, real progress will move towards its dismantling. I hope to see that in the future. Yes - The international federation of nations was a sweet and ideal ideology - but to title an organization with the words UNITED ..............nations...................the nations are not unitied - that is why they are called nations! Nations designate extended national families or tribes that contain some adopted members - county means real estate - nations are another matter - The premist of the UN - is to unite all tribes - well that would mean that there would be no tribes - they can shut up - everyone is entitled to family - extended family - and national family. The UN dispises the family - they hate patriarchs and matriarchs because they feel that people are to stupid to make their own decisions - the UN - insults all of man kind. Quote
Saipan Posted July 3, 2011 Report Posted July 3, 2011 You can go screw yourself too. If a foo shits, wear it. I take it this forum is strictly liberal, if I may say so. Quote
jacee Posted July 3, 2011 Report Posted July 3, 2011 My position remains the same - anything the UN can try to claim to its credit can be done more easily and more effectively directly between nations outside of the absurdities of the UN horror show. The UN is just a platform through which we treat dictators, failed states, and inferior cultures/societies with undeserved respect. If UN participation depended on someone's (whose?) judgement of 'worthy of respect', the arguments would go on forever, at great expense. I expect that's why it's open to all, and committee chairs rotate alphabetically. There is value in having a forum for open discussions of human rights issues - exposing the good, bad and truly ugly in all countries and tracking and reporting on implementation of UN Conventions. Whether that's enough value for our money is likely also a discussion of many opinions that could go on forever. Quote
Bob Posted July 3, 2011 Report Posted July 3, 2011 If UN participation depended on someone's (whose?) judgement of 'worthy of respect', the arguments would go on forever, at great expense. I expect that's why it's open to all, and committee chairs rotate alphabetically. There is value in having a forum for open discussions of human rights issues - exposing the good, bad and truly ugly in all countries and tracking and reporting on implementation of UN Conventions. Whether that's enough value for our money is likely also a discussion of many opinions that could go on forever. My position is that Canada and other free nations should all withdraw from the UN. The UN should be dismantled. Allow states to make their own direct relations with one another. We don't need this bureaucratic "forum" to give soapboxes to failed states and dictatorships at the expense of the West (primarily America). The West is literally paying the way for this farce to continue, which runs contrary to all the values it claims to promote. There is no value in a politicized institution largely dominated by Islamic dictatorships and their allies. The UN is certainly not an "open forum". Dissenting views are silenced all the time. The UN does not objectively carry out its mandate and certainly does not "expose, track, or report the bad in all countries". Indeed, the opposite is true - with the UN almost exclusively focusing on Israel and other non-issues while ignoring real problems. Do I really need to provide examples, current and historical, of major events the UN and its subsidiaries ignored? Committee chairs rotate alphabetically? What in the world are you talking about? Perhaps there is one or two committees in the UN (it is a labyrinth of subsidiaries and committees and groups) with alphabetical rotations, but many of the subsidiaries are headed by and composed of states that are elected. There is no legitimate defense of the UN. It achieves nothing that couldn't otherwise be more effectively achieved outside of its auspices. Moreover, the UN drains energy and money and time that could otherwise be used towards successfully addressing relevant issues. Disbar the UN, now. Actually, I saw a video with Ezra Levant on YouTube expressing this exact position. What a breath of fresh air it is to hear a reasonable perspective advanced in the Canadian media (we'd never hear anything of the sort from the CBC). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xug1ASfHYBo Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
jacee Posted July 3, 2011 Report Posted July 3, 2011 My position is that Canada and other free nations should all withdraw from the UN. The UN should be dismantled. Allow states to make their own direct relations with one another. We don't need this bureaucratic "forum" to give soapboxes to failed states and dictatorships at the expense of the West (primarily America). The West is literally paying the way for this farce to continue, which runs contrary to all the values it claims to promote. There is no value in a politicized institution largely dominated by Islamic dictatorships and their allies. The UN is certainly not an "open forum". Dissenting views are silenced all the time. The UN does not objectively carry out its mandate and certainly does not "expose, track, or report the bad in all countries". Indeed, the opposite is true - with the UN almost exclusively focusing on Israel and other non-issues while ignoring real problems. Do I really need to provide examples, current and historical, of major events the UN and its subsidiaries ignored? Committee chairs rotate alphabetically? What in the world are you talking about? Perhaps there is one or two committees in the UN (it is a labyrinth of subsidiaries and committees and groups) with alphabetical rotations, but many of the subsidiaries are headed by and composed of states that are elected. There is no legitimate defense of the UN. It achieves nothing that couldn't otherwise be more effectively achieved outside of its auspices. Moreover, the UN drains energy and money and time that could otherwise be used towards successfully addressing relevant issues. Disbar the UN, now. Membership in the UN is purely voluntary. Any country that doesn't want to join doesn't have to, can withdraw at any time, doesn't have to sign on to any conventions, etc. Thus, your position makes no sense to me. Quote
Bob Posted July 3, 2011 Report Posted July 3, 2011 If Canada and other free and prosperous countries withdraw from the UN, it would collapse. Why this hasn't happened yet it a product of leftism - subscription to the empty promises that the UN represents. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
Sir Bandelot Posted July 4, 2011 Report Posted July 4, 2011 If Canada and other free and prosperous countries withdraw from the UN, it would collapse. Why this hasn't happened yet it a product of leftism - subscription to the empty promises that the UN represents. Really? Israel is a member, as you know. the Mission of Israel supports the purposes and principles of the UN, namely, as the UN charter eloquently states, to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small. As such, the Mission of Israel actively engages at the United Nations on a wide range of security, human rights, humanitarian, social and economic development, and environment related issues. http://israel-un.mfa.gov.il/ How do you respond to this? Quote
Bob Posted July 4, 2011 Report Posted July 4, 2011 What in the world would make you think that I support Israel's involvement in the UN? It's the exact same thing - it's a product of leftism and deference to this "authority" that is the UN and all of its affiliates. Still, Israel is a very small player in the UN. It's not as if Israel's withdrawal would break the bank of the UN, as would be the case in the event of America's withdrawal. It is a testament to the left-wing media of America that discussion of pulling out of the UN is non-existent. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
Sir Bandelot Posted July 4, 2011 Report Posted July 4, 2011 What in the world would make you think that I support Israel's involvement in the UN? It's the exact same thing - it's a product of leftism and deference to this "authority" that is the UN and all of its affiliates. Still, Israel is a very small player in the UN. It's not as if Israel's withdrawal would break the bank of the UN, as would be the case in the event of America's withdrawal. It is a testament to the left-wing media of America that discussion of pulling out of the UN is non-existent. I didn't think that you support it Bob. In fact I knew you wouldn't. You are rather presumptuous sometimes it seems. I wanted to see how you respond to the notion that Israel is a loyal member, while you tell us that Canada should leave the UN. Pot, meet kettle Quote
Bob Posted July 4, 2011 Report Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) I didn't think that you support it Bob. In fact I knew you wouldn't. You are rather presumptuous sometimes it seems. I wanted to see how you respond to the notion that Israel is a loyal member, while you tell us that Canada should leave the UN. Pot, meet kettle I don't think you understand the pot and kettle analogy, considering that I think all civilized states should withdraw from the UN, Canada and Israel included. You obviously thought you were putting me in some tough position, assuming that I support the Israeli government in a lock step manner. I have no problem condemning the Israeli government for weak and self-destructive policies. Edited July 4, 2011 by Bob Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
Sir Bandelot Posted July 4, 2011 Report Posted July 4, 2011 I have no problem condemning the Israeli government for weak and self-destructive policies. Good. Good. Quote
jbg Posted July 4, 2011 Author Report Posted July 4, 2011 Really? Israel is a member, as you know. the Mission of Israel supports the purposes and principles of the UN, namely, as the UN charter eloquently states, to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small. As such, the Mission of Israel actively engages at the United Nations on a wide range of security, human rights, humanitarian, social and economic development, and environment related issues. http://israel-un.mfa.gov.il/ How do you respond to this? Even Israel makes mistakes. To quote Joe Cocker's 1971 song "I think it's high time we went" (out of the U.N). Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Sir Bandelot Posted July 4, 2011 Report Posted July 4, 2011 Even Israel makes mistakes. To quote Joe Cocker's 1971 song "I think it's high time we went" (out of the U.N). Yes we've been over that now, and I am satisfied with Bob's response. Although I disagree it is a strictly leftist phenom. Surely there are many leftists who also dislike the UN. At least there is still some hope for Bob. Small, yes, but non-zero... Quote
jbg Posted July 4, 2011 Author Report Posted July 4, 2011 At least there is still some hope for Bob. Small, yes, but non-zero... Wouldn't the resources we waste on the Horrorshow by the East River better be spent on direct relief? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Sir Bandelot Posted July 4, 2011 Report Posted July 4, 2011 Wouldn't the resources we waste on the Horrorshow by the East River better be spent on direct relief? "Direct relief", that sounds like a leftist concept to me. Is it just possible that direct relief is not always in the best interests of certain parties? The UN has certainly benefited some groups, by deflecting, by postponing, by dragging things out. Its usefulness really depends on whose problems you're trying to solve. Quote
jbg Posted July 4, 2011 Author Report Posted July 4, 2011 The UN has certainly benefited some groups, by deflecting, by postponing, by dragging things out. Its usefulness really depends on whose problems you're trying to solve. It has given delegates from countries such as Gabon and the Central African Republic nice places to live for extended time at our expense. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
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