Many Born-Again Christians Hold Universalist Views, Barna Finds

[WIP]

A new U.S. study commissioned by Barna confirms a number of previous studies: most people, even those who belong to fundamentalist religions are universalist regarding that "narrow path" to heaven:

Twenty-five percent of born-again Christians said all people are eventually saved or accepted by God. A similar proportion, 26 percent, said a person’s religion does not matter because all faiths teach the same lessons.

And an even higher proportion, 40 percent, of born-again Christians said they believe Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

Barna defined universalism as the belief that all human beings will eventually be saved after death. The California-based research and polling firm defines born-again Christians as people who have made “a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today, and who believe they will go to heaven after death because they confessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.

According to the Barna analysis, 43 percent of Americans in general agreed with the statement “It doesn’t matter what religious faith you follow because they all teach the same lessons,” while 54 percent disagreed.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/many-born-again-christians-hold-universalist-views-barna-finds-49883/

Okay...not everyone who describes themselves as "born again" is evangelical fundamentalist, but odds are that they are far more likely to be biblical literalists on most issues than mainline protestants or the average Catholic. This is important....and I believe positive news, because it tells us that people living in cosmopolitan societies feel some unease about condemning people they know of other religions, or no religions, to hell. One of the fundie preachers near the end of the article makes note of this when he complains about his flock feeling the pressure from the "culture" to be universal.....damn, why can't they just look forward to watching the damned burning in hell like I do?....Well, he didn't actually say that part, but that's the frustration of a lot of fundamentalists who want revenge against those who have different beliefs.

About five years ago, Barna released a study across many denominations that found a shockingly high percentage of Christians even want to extend the promise of heaven to atheists and animals...especially pets! Over 20% of Catholics believed that their favourite pets would accompany them in heaven. This result would represent a growing awareness of animal rights and interests, which is also a good thing, since even the most fundamentalist religions will liberalize their teachings on issues when general attitudes change. This happened in the past re: slavery, and is even happening today with environment issues and gay rights...since young evangelicals are far more likely to accept gay rights and the realities of human caused climate change. Progress moves as slow as an iceberg among those who think they have the absolute truth, but as long as society can continue to make progress, the fungelicals will join as well....and claim it was there idea all along!

Also, the survey results on what religious adherents actually believe should serve as a caution and warning against those who like judging religions and adherents by what their scriptural texts say, since these books have to be interpreted and understood in terms of life today, not 2000 years ago. Long story short, this makes Sam Harris's claim from "Letter To A Christian Nation" that 44% of Americans are looking forward to a nuclear holocaust because they believe in end-time prophecy (or claim to) a superficial misrepresentation of what they actually believe about the future.

[betsy]

The article/survey should serve as a caution and warning to all Christians to adhere to The Bible, that they may not be deceived into the "new-age" way of thinking....and become the present day equivalent of Old Testament Israel....idolizing other gods.

The message in the Bible must not be changed in any way, what more to conform to today's world....for it's been clearly forbidden. Furthermore, changing doctrines only underlines the moral relativism that permeates in our society today....that everything is like putty that can be moulded to how we want it. Nothing is solid. Nothing is absolute. "Truth" is what you want it to be.

Are we so full of pride that we think it should be God who should bow down to our wishes...and not the other way around?

Dear Christians, we ought to be reminded when Christ said, "Many are called, but few are chosen."

Being a Christian means following the teachings of Christ....otherwise, we are only professed-"Christians".

Accepting Christ as our Saviour entails repentance...that act of humility acknowledging our sins. Repenting means we will try not to go back to our old ways of sinning. It is a narrow and difficult road to travel. Even Christ warns us of that. But if we ask Christ to come to our hearts...and ask for His guidance....it becomes easier.

True freedom is when you hand your life to God and say: Here, You do as You please with it for You know what is good for me. Trust in God.

I believe it is important to develop a personal relationship with God. You dedicate your jobs, your troubles, your sufferings, your joys....all for God, and you'll see the changes happening in you.

There are a lot of deceptions out there aimed to confuse us. If you're a Christian you believe in the reality of Satan. And we know that he is the master deceiver. He can work his ways through others. To deceive you. To confuse you. To steer you away from God.

Read your Bible. Even if only a few passages a day....it becomes your compass.

We pray that Christians will remain strong in faith amid temptations, and we pray for the lost sheep that they may find their way back to God.

Edited April 26, 2011 by betsy

[WIP]

The article/survey should serve as a caution and warning to all Christians to adhere to The Bible, that they may not be deceived into the "new-age" way of thinking....and become the present day equivalent of Old Testament Israel....idolizing other gods.

I had a feeling you wouldn't see this as good news! I grew up in the kind of religion that you preach, and the dogma of exclusive salvation was the biggest reason why I started questioning what I had been taught. If even the largest religious sect in the world preaching an exclusive path to salvation, has it right, that means the vast majority of people are damned for having wrong beliefs.

The truth is that there are no such things as souls and spirits in the first place; so people who stress about whether they are going to heaven or hell, or will live on forever after death... and make sacrifices and cause conflicts in this world for their imagined paradise to come, would be better served by coming to terms with the reality of our existence, and realizing that our conscious minds are not immaterial souls trapped in material bodies, but instead, our sense of self is an illusion created by complex brain function, which enables us to function in the world, and have an interest in self-preservation. That need for protecting our physical being is achieved through emotion as fear of death.... which for a creature that learns that it will eventually die, creates a plan for some sort of eternal life after bodily death....but remains insecure about the reality of eternal life, and makes personal sacrifices in a desperate attempt to improve the odds of attaining immortality.

[betsy]

I had a feeling you wouldn't see this as good news! I grew up in the kind of religion that you preach, and the dogma of exclusive salvation was the biggest reason why I started questioning what I had been taught. If even the largest religious sect in the world preaching an exclusive path to salvation, has it right, that means the vast majority of people are damned for having wrong beliefs.

The truth is that there are no such things as souls and spirits in the first place; so people who stress about whether they are going to heaven or hell, or will live on forever after death... and make sacrifices and cause conflicts in this world for their imagined paradise to come, would be better served by coming to terms with the reality of our existence, and realizing that our conscious minds are not immaterial souls trapped in material bodies, but instead, our sense of self is an illusion created by complex brain function, which enables us to function in the world, and have an interest in self-preservation. That need for protecting our physical being is achieved through emotion as fear of death.... which for a creature that learns that it will eventually die, creates a plan for some sort of eternal life after bodily death....but remains insecure about the reality of eternal life, and makes personal sacrifices in a desperate attempt to improve the odds of attaining immortality.

What is there for me to say WIP?

I started to read and try to understand the Bible for a very important reason:

If I am to love and please my Lord, I should therefore know what He truly want me to do.

And as He had warned us about false prophets, and those who'd use His name....and warned us on the wiles and deceits of Satan.....I should therefore heed those warnings.

I think you had said yourself somewhere in this forum that if only Christians follow the teachings of Christ, the world would be a better place. Therefore you know that a lot of "Christians" are Christians in name only. I don't want to be in that category. I've been there before.

Edited April 27, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Christians, there is only one true God.

Don't be decieved. Don't get swayed into that line of thinking that everyone (Muslims, Buddha, Vooddoo, Nature) is referring to the same God. That's just plain ridiculous. That flies smackly against what God had clearly written, when He gave the Commandments to Moses.

Remember what Christ said when He was asked which of the Commandments of God is the most important.

Don't be afraid to be ridiculed or mocked when you accept that Satan is real. That he walks among us doing his darndest - using every tool and wiles - to steer you away from God.

[betsy]

There is also a reason why secularists are targetting Christianity....to bust it, lump it along with the others and make it irrelevant. Obviously, they're threatened by it more than any other religions.

We have the power.

Edited April 27, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

I had a feeling you wouldn't see this as good news!

And I had the feeling that you really welcome that news.

I grew up in the kind of religion that you preach, and the dogma of exclusive salvation was the biggest reason why I started questioning what I had been taught. If even the largest religious sect in the world preaching an exclusive path to salvation, has it right, that means the vast majority of people are damned for having wrong beliefs.

You rely on your own intelligence WIP. You question the doctrine. You don't agree with it. You want to mould it to suit your own needs and wants....

I guess you think you know more than God.

The truth is that there are no such things as souls and spirits in the first place;

So, you've already found the evidence and proof. You've reached that conclusion.

so people who stress about whether they are going to heaven or hell, or will live on forever after death... and make sacrifices and cause conflicts in this world for their imagined paradise to come, would be better served by coming to terms with the reality of our existence, and realizing that our conscious minds are not immaterial souls trapped in material bodies, but instead, our sense of self is an illusion created by complex brain function, which enables us to function in the world, and have an interest in self-preservation. That need for protecting our physical being is achieved through emotion as fear of death.... which for a creature that learns that it will eventually die, creates a plan for some sort of eternal life after bodily death....but remains insecure about the reality of eternal life, and makes personal sacrifices in a desperate attempt to improve the odds of attaining immortality.

I spread the good news about Christianity because that's a duty of a Christian. It comes with the "title."

What I'd like you to explain is that.....why is it so important to you that people believe what you say?

One would think that since you've arrived at the conclusion that Christians are all delusional fools and nutbars...you'd just shake your head and move on with your life - enjoy every minute you can wring out of it since in your conclusion, it's the only life you've got.

Why are you wasting your time wallowing in your anger about the religion and the nutbars that are its members....instead of enjoying the time you've got left?

Edited April 27, 2011 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

Why are you wasting your time wallowing in your anger about the religion and the nutbars that are its members....instead of enjoying the time you've got left?

Because religious people make the world a more dangerous place.

[charter.rights]

Ah. The problem is whom are we to believe being more than 25 versions and interpretations of the Bible in English alone! And being deceived by so many ordained priests, ministers and clergy over the centuries the "word" of Christianity has been tainted and perverted. The religion of Christianity is plagued by self-serving interests and prophet-tears, charlatans and molesters that YOUR word, or anyone else professing to represent Christ can no longer be trusted.

So you read. However, your problem is interpretation. You have been conditioned, as most bible-thumpers have to read and promote the bible in a very limited way, projecting your own limitations into its interpretation. When you can apply the Bible along with miracles and Truth then you can come back with some legitimacy. Until that, you are stuck in a mindless faith without the work to back it up.

As I said in another thread. Your faith is dead. You have no idea how to make it work.

Edited April 27, 2011 by charter.rights

[Sir Bandelot]

Because religious people make the world a more dangerous place.

Some do, some don't.

Some who enrobe themselves with the cloak of a religion use it as an excuse, as relief from their daily sins, which they will repeat again the very next day. Others who are in power use it to manipulate people and make gains for themselves. Behold "opium for the masses". What do these things have to do with the simple ideas of peace and brotherly love? Nothing! They hijack a word, or call themselves such-and-such, so that they can sleep better at night. But by no means are any of them "good" people.

One person calls themselves a christian, but is in truth an evil person, doing things against the very doctrine they claim to ascribe to. Another one calls themselves nothing at all, but by their own nature walks the road of righteousness. What is the truth here? What do we need to watch out for, who are the "false prophets", who are the anti-christs. I believe the real truth is a secret thing that cannot be told in words at all, but is whispered in your heart. So, those that have ears let them hear...

[charter.rights]

I believe the real truth is a secret thing that cannot be told in words at all, but is whispered in your heart. So, those that have ears let them hear...

I agree. Real Christians have no need to go around trying to convert or lecture others.....

Edited April 27, 2011 by charter.rights

[WIP]

What is there for me to say WIP?

I started to read and try to understand the Bible for a very important reason:

If I am to love and please my Lord, I should therefore know what He truly want me to do.

And as He had warned us about false prophets, and those who'd use His name....and warned us on the wiles and deceits of Satan.....I should therefore heed those warnings.

I think you had said yourself somewhere in this forum that if only Christians follow the teachings of Christ, the world would be a better place. Therefore you know that a lot of "Christians" are Christians in name only. I don't want to be in that category. I've been there before.

Yes, and I've spent some time over the last 10 years thinking over what is good and bad about religion and where religion can go from being a positive social force to a negative one. Exclusionary religion may not always surface as a source of conflict, but, like the example of the former Yugoslavia, when a society is starting to break down, religions that scorn the authenticity of other different religions can be the match that lights the fire. The conflict in Yugoslavia is mischaracterized as an ethnic conflict, since the people were all from the same general origins, but divided into ethnic groups over many generations because of adherence to three different religions that taught their people to scorn those of the rival religions.

[WIP]

Ah. The problem is whom are we to believe being more than 25 versions and interpretations of the Bible in English alone! And being deceived by so many ordained priests, ministers and clergy over the centuries the "word" of Christianity has been tainted and perverted. The religion of Christianity is plagued by self-serving interests and prophet-tears, charlatans and molesters that YOUR word, or anyone else professing to represent Christ can no longer be trusted.

So you read. However, your problem is interpretation. You have been conditioned, as most bible-thumpers have to read and promote the bible in a very limited way, projecting your own limitations into its interpretation. When you can apply the Bible along with miracles and Truth then you can come back with some legitimacy. Until that, you are stuck in a mindless faith without the work to back it up.

As I said in another thread. Your faith is dead. You have no idea how to make it work.

I know you get a lot of crap and abuse on these forums for presenting an aboriginal perspective on many issues, but most people do not follow religious traditions out of some sort of logical, analytical process, so debunking only works with those who already have one foot out the door. Your experience with Christianity is likely coloured by the boarding schools and other attempts to impose European cultural values on native populations, and obliterate their own languages and culture. But that is not the takeaway of the average Christian, who may not even be aware of the history, or even if they are, will write it off as an aberation....like the Inquisition, or the Crusades, or support for the institution of slavery etc.

[WIP]

So, you've already found the evidence and proof. You've reached that conclusion.

Absolutely not! But, I consider the prospect of lifelong searching to be a challenge rather than a source of anxiety.

I spread the good news about Christianity because that's a duty of a Christian. It comes with the "title."

What I'd like you to explain is that.....why is it so important to you that people believe what you say?

One would think that since you've arrived at the conclusion that Christians are all delusional fools and nutbars...you'd just shake your head and move on with your life - enjoy every minute you can wring out of it since in your conclusion, it's the only life you've got.

I don't know how much you've paid attention to what I've actually written, but I am not an antitheist. We do not have objective or empirical evidence for why our universe exists and how we have come alive at this point in time, but we're here, and we have to decide how to make sense of the human condition in whatever ways make sense to us. The religion I criticize is the aspects of religion that are making society worse instead of a better place.

Why are you wasting your time wallowing in your anger about the religion and the nutbars that are its members....instead of enjoying the time you've got left?

I am enjoying the time I have left, and my anxieties are not about mortality, but the secular apocalypse that we are leaving future generations through our collective lack of action. The difference I see in the coming decades from those who see a 2nd Coming, is that I can see evidence of Great Tribulation, but I don't see any evidence of a divine escape clause being tossed to Planet Earth. I believe we are the source of our own salvation, and the survival of the human race will depend on what we do or fail to do.

[charter.rights]

I know you get a lot of crap and abuse on these forums for presenting an aboriginal perspective on many issues, but most people do not follow religious traditions out of some sort of logical, analytical process, so debunking only works with those who already have one foot out the door. Your experience with Christianity is likely coloured by the boarding schools and other attempts to impose European cultural values on native populations, and obliterate their own languages and culture. But that is not the takeaway of the average Christian, who may not even be aware of the history, or even if they are, will write it off as an aberation....like the Inquisition, or the Crusades, or support for the institution of slavery etc.

That is a totally incorrect characterization.

I was brought up in the baptized in Anglican Church but spent most of my time in the United Church until a few years after I was married there. I had the opportunity to not only experience a number of other Churches -Baptist, Pentecostal, Catholic, Unitarian etc, but was openly invited to learn about native beliefs from a number of close friends.

I use native stores and understandings because they seem to be the most broadly based and believe it or not espouse more Christian doctrines than most organized religion I have attended. They put it very simply. One can believe what is in their heart and a person's relationship with God - The Creator - is personal and need not be defended.

All of this encouraged me to learn more about Christianity, not only from ministers and priests (although I count many among my personal friends) but from other more Christian acting people, who understand a lot more than most. I understand the need for organized religion and the kind packaged answers Betsy always comes up with, but true Christianity isn't like that and the works of true Christians is not the kind of thing that is on display. In fact if they did pronounce their "acts" most people would run away scared claiming it to be witchcraft or the work of Satan. In reality, those "works" are truly good, and are full of miracles that once mastered are available to anyone with a good mind. No need to explain further.

[betsy]

WIP:

The truth is that there are no such things as souls and spirits in the first place;

betsy:

So, you've already found the evidence and proof. You've reached that conclusion.

Absolutely not! But, I consider the prospect of lifelong searching to be a challenge rather than a source of anxiety.

How can you answer "absolutely not," when you clearly claimed that it is the "truth!"

You said: "The truth is that there are no such things as souls and spirits in the first place"

How can we even take what you say into consideration when you contradict yourself?

Edited April 28, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

I don't know how much you've paid attention to what I've actually written, but I am not an antitheist. We do not have objective or empirical evidence for why our universe exists and how we have come alive at this point in time,

Actually, I am baffled by this. You want empirical evidence to explain our existence.

And yet you say there are no spirits and souls - accepting that as fact without any empirical evidences to support that belief.

but we're here, and we have to decide how to make sense of the human condition in whatever ways make sense to us.

To some of us, our religion makes perfect sense to us. We find contentment....solace...rest....inner peace.

The religion I criticize is the aspects of religion that are making society worse instead of a better place.

But you don't make that clear in your numerous posts.

Actually, most of your posts reeked of anger, hatred, condemnation, contempt for all religion....and most especially the Christian religion. Please understand that I'm not in a quarrel with you. This is not personal.

But I am arguing with you....I am defending my faith. And since some of you are hellbent on wanting to prove that my belief is based on nothing....of course I'll be more doubly hellbent in proving you wrong....that in fact, it is your belief that is actually based on nothing.

I am enjoying the time I have left, and my anxieties are not about mortality, but the secular apocalypse that we are leaving future generations through our collective lack of action.

We all want the same thing for the future generation....except we don't agree on who's right and who's wrong. Perhaps you should worry about your own children....and let us worry about ours.

The difference I see in the coming decades from those who see a 2nd Coming, is that I can see evidence of Great Tribulation, but I don't see any evidence of a divine escape clause being tossed to Planet Earth.

In your books, we Christians are delusional because we believe in something that has no empirical evidence. Well WIP, you've admitted that you're no different than us since you accepted your truth that's not backed by empirical evidence. You fit in same category of being delusional.

I believe we are the source of our own salvation, and the survival of the human race will depend on what we do or fail to do.

Believe what you want. No one is stopping you. Not even my God.

That's what free-will is all about.

Edited April 28, 2011 by betsy

[cybercoma]

The truth is there's absolutely no tangible evidence for the existence of spirits or souls anyway, but if you can show otherwise, have at it.

[WIP]

That is a totally incorrect characterization.

I was brought up in the baptized in Anglican Church but spent most of my time in the United Church until a few years after I was married there. I had the opportunity to not only experience a number of other Churches -Baptist, Pentecostal, Catholic, Unitarian etc, but was openly invited to learn about native beliefs from a number of close friends.

I use native stores and understandings because they seem to be the most broadly based and believe it or not espouse more Christian doctrines than most organized religion I have attended. They put it very simply. One can believe what is in their heart and a person's relationship with God - The Creator - is personal and need not be defended.

When the first Jesuits engaged the Hurons and other tribes, they took advantage of these similarities, to spread Catholic doctrine in the New World. It wasn't until afterward that they tried to stamp out the Wyandot and other native religions.

All of this encouraged me to learn more about Christianity, not only from ministers and priests (although I count many among my personal friends) but from other more Christian acting people, who understand a lot more than most. I understand the need for organized religion and the kind packaged answers Betsy always comes up with, but true Christianity isn't like that and the works of true Christians is not the kind of thing that is on display.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I don't see the problem comes from Betsy belonging to a packaged, organized religion, but the fact that she has no tolerance for all of the thousands of other versions of Christianity, or non-Christian religions. The survey that inspired this thread....and the one that has Betsy twisted in knots...informs us that a lot of people, especially younger people, are resisting the notion that only the followers of one particular religious tradition have God on their side.

In fact if they did pronounce their "acts" most people would run away scared claiming it to be witchcraft or the work of Satan. In reality, those "works" are truly good, and are full of miracles that once mastered are available to anyone with a good mind. No need to explain further.

Now this is total fantasy!

[WIP]

How can you answer "absolutely not," when you clearly claimed that it is the "truth!"

You said: "The truth is that there are no such things as souls and spirits in the first place"

How can we even take what you say into consideration when you contradict yourself?

Put it this way: if souls and spirits are supernatural...or something other than a natural phenomena, then you, or anyone else who believes in them, has the burden of proof to prove their existence, since everything we see, touch and know about, fits into the world of natural phenomena.

When it comes to souls, we have lots of evidence to demonstrate how mental states correlate with brain function, and how specific brain activity precedes awareness of simple decision-making tasks. There is no room for an immaterial soul to perform some mental function, nor has there ever been an explanation for how something that is immaterial would interface with the brain or the body, or any other natural force in our world. So, maybe it's my definition of truth that souls don't exist. But, I have the preponderance of evidence on my side. The other side just has tradition, longing and wishful thinking.

[WIP]

Believe what you want. No one is stopping you. Not even my God.

That's what free-will is all about.

And, we don't have unconstrained free will either, because we are physical beings that are part of a physical causal chain of events in this universe. Our mental states are determined by physical events that go on inside our brain. It's something that most people seem to understand perfectly when dealing with people with mental illness or dementia, but fail to recognize that everyone who is "normal" is likewise constrained by the interactions of 100 billion or so neurons.

[betsy]

Put it this way: if souls and spirits are supernatural...or something other than a natural phenomena, then you, or anyone else who believes in them, has the burden of proof to prove their existence, since everything we see, touch and know about, fits into the world of natural phenomena.

When it comes to souls, we have lots of evidence to demonstrate how mental states correlate with brain function, and how specific brain activity precedes awareness of simple decision-making tasks. There is no room for an immaterial soul to perform some mental function, nor has there ever been an explanation for how something that is immaterial would interface with the brain or the body, or any other natural force in our world. So, maybe it's my definition of truth that souls don't exist. But, I have the preponderance of evidence on my side. The other side just has tradition, longing and wishful thinking.

Vestigial organs - like tonsils, appendix etc.., - were considered non-functional. Now science understood their purpose, and are concluded to be functional.

Not understanding something does not mean it's not true.

Claiming it for a fact is misleading (to say the least). What you stated was your personal opinion - irresponsibly imho.

Edited April 30, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

And, we don't have unconstrained free will either, because we are physical beings that are part of a physical causal chain of events in this universe. Our mental states are determined by physical events that go on inside our brain. It's something that most people seem to understand perfectly when dealing with people with mental illness or dementia, but fail to recognize that everyone who is "normal" is likewise constrained by the interactions of 100 billion or so neurons.

If I remember it right, it was you who touted Dawkins' meme. Well we all know what Ruse said about Dawkins' meme, "I don't buy his meme bulls**t!"

[WIP]

Vestigial organs - like tonsils, appendix etc.., - were considered non-functional. Now science understood their purpose, and are concluded to be functional.

Not understanding something does not mean it's not true.

Claiming it for a fact is misleading (to say the least). What you stated was your personal opinion - irresponsibly imho.

Yikes! You're comparing vestigial organs to souls? My point about souls is that...besides the lack of proof for their existence....there is no role for them to perform. Mental functions correlate with physical brain activity...which certainly is too complex to be fully understood any time soon, but there are no black boxes -- mental functions -- that are not correlated with subsystems of the human brain.

Now, when it comes to vestigial organs -- these don't even qualify as proofs against evolution! I refer you to the bane of creationists -- Talk Origins, which has a page that does an exhaustive deconstruction of how they are misused by creationists. Answers in Genesis claims that scientists define them as "useless" organs, which the Talkorigins article demonstrates as a falsehood, since even Chuck Darwin himself didn't claim that vestigial organs were without purpose! Your example of the appendix is an example of an organ which has limited, if anything of value for us, since its importance is tied with our pre-ape herbivore ancestors which consumed a lot more vegetation.

Edited April 30, 2011 by WIP

[WIP]

If I remember it right, it was you who touted Dawkins' meme. Well we all know what Ruse said about Dawkins' meme, "I don't buy his meme bulls**t!"

No, I have been a critic of Memetics since first discovering his essay "Viruses Of The Mind" written about 15 years ago, in a collection of Dawkins essays I bought a few years back - "The Devil's Chaplain." Maybe you put everyone you consider anti-Jesus in the same pot....and Richard Dawkins is supposed to be who we take orders from!